Conditional salvation?

ONLY unregenerate Jews delight in the Law of God. Christians are dead to the Law of God, and most certainly they do NOT delight in it!

Rom. 7:4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

1 Cor. 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(NASB, 1995)

 

I have already posted that Tholuck proved that this was not the case by quoting many ancient pagans who wrote of having that struggle. How can you possibly deny that which is documented fact?

 

ONLY unregenerate Jews delight in the Law of God. Christians are dead to the Law of God, and most certainly they do NOT delight in it!

Rom. 7:4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

1 Cor. 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(NASB, 1995)

</font>[/QUOTE]The unregenerate are dead in tresspasses and sins. (Eph.2) The unregenerate cannot please God because they are DEAD.

The DELIGHT IN THE LAW OF GOD concerns the INWARD MAN which every BELIEVER, NOT THE UNREGENERATE possesses. (Eph.4, Col.3)

Being dead to the law DOES NOT stifle our DELIGHT in the law of God. THE LAW IS FULFILLED IN US by the new man. (Rom.8:4)

Works of righteousness CAN ONLY be performed by those who HAVE THE SPIRIT. All others are DEAD WORKS, which have no acceptation by the Father. The works of a DEAD MAN SPIRITUALLY (natural man in the flesh) are no good. (Rom.8)

 

I have already posted that Tholuck proved that this was not the case by quoting many ancient pagans who wrote of having that struggle. How can you possibly deny that which is documented fact?

</font>[/QUOTE]I did better than Tholuck. I have Paul. I certainly don't believe the writings of any pagans over the word of God.

The struggle of conscience in "any" unsaved person IS NOT the WARRING of the flesh AGAINST the Spirit in a believer who HAS THE INWARD MAN, which is the REGENERATED IMAGE of Jesus Christ. (Rom.2,8 Gal.5, Col.3)

 

No one is disputing this. This is just irrelevant verbiage.

Very many pagans have written extensively about the INWARD MAN. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Why in the world would ANY Christian delight in the Law? Christ had to die on the cross so that we could be dead to the Law!

Of course it is. This is just more irrelevant verbiage.

Of course. This is just more irrelevant verbiage.

 

Tholuck quotes many pagans writers who described in detail their personal conflicts with sin. The conflict with sin that Paul describes is a conflict that pagans and unregenerate Jews have—not Christians.

I hope you do not mean to suggest that you are experiencing this pagan conflict in your own life!

 

No one is disputing this. This is just irrelevant verbiage.

Very many pagans have written extensively about the INWARD MAN. You simply do not know what you are talking about.

Why in the world would ANY Christian delight in the Law? Christ had to die on the cross so that we could be dead to the Law!

Of course it is. This is just more irrelevant verbiage.

Of course. This is just more irrelevant verbiage.

</font>[/QUOTE]To the verses which DISPUTED your foolishness, you call IRRELEVANT?

A pagan wrote about the REGENERTATED NATURE of Jesus Christ within the Christian?

Don't make me laugh. What COULD THEY ADD to Paul the Apostle, who COINED THE TERM, defined it, and explained the operation concerning it, as being the NEW MAN?

I know exactly what I am talking about, and it's BIBLICAL, not pagan writings.

Why would we delight in the law of God? Are you kidding? CAUSE IT IS SPIRITUAL (Rom.7) and it
PLEASES GOD when we follow it! (Rom.8:4) LOOK AT THE VERSE!

All of the statements ARE NOT irrelevant verbiage due to your statement that the MAN in Rom.7 does not have the Spirit. He does. He has the INWARD MAN, who delights in the law of God. He IS NOT a Jew struggling to fulfill the OT law, AS YOU SAID.

That is WRONG. It is an error. To teach such is FALSEHOOD.

 

Tholuck quotes many pagans writers who described in detail their personal conflicts with sin. The conflict with sin that Paul describes is a conflict that pagans and unregenerate Jews have—not Christians.

I hope you do not mean to suggest that you are experiencing this pagan conflict in your own life!

</font>[/QUOTE]Now you've gone repetitive without responding to the FACTS of the VERSES of STATEMENT which I have raised, and decided to throw a "snide" comment and slur.

I can do the same now.

You have EVADED the issue.

CONSCIENCE (Rom.2) is NOT the war of the flesh against the Spirit. (Gal.5, Rom.7)

The conflict that Paul describes is found in a man, who HAS THE INWARD MAN.

AGAIN, I don't quote pagan writers to teach BIBLE DOCTRINE. I quoted the apostle Paul, FROM THE BIBLE, who teaches correct and sound doctrine concerning the TERM (inward man) and SUBJECT. (Regeneration by the Spirit)

You've blown this one, as you do many on this board.

 

I haven't much in common with Craig when it comes to the teachings of scripture concerning conditional salvation. I am on DHK's side with the biblical interpretations of doctrine. However, on this one point, I do believe the above quote is the correct way we should teach Romans 7:14-25. I do believe that 24-25 concludes that Jesus Christ is what will deliver and that through being born again as further described in Romans 8.

I do agree with DHK that Christians still struggle with sins. I just don't believe that this particular passage is about that issue. We might struggle with sin but it has no power over us any longer in Christ. We can and will overcome and those in Christ will labor to submit to the Spirit over the flesh.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit ". (Ro 8:1)

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (vs 2)

Paul describes the release he has and we have from the situation he has described in Romans 7:14-25.

God Bless!

 

DHK,

Notice where there is no condemnation? In Christ. So how does one get in? What does the Bible say about how to get "into Christ"? There are only two verses which contain that phrase, which show us the door by which we enter Christ where all spiritual blessings are (Eph 1:3).

They are Rom 6:3, which reads, "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death?", and

Gal 3:27 which reads, "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

If I may, a word about the Phillipian jailer (PJ hereafter).

In Acts 16, we find Paul in Phillipi. Starting in verse 16, we read of a certain woman posessed with a spirit of divination who followed Paul and his group around crying, "These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation." Paul eventually casts this demon out of her, and mayhem ensues.

Along about verse 23, we meet PJ for the first time. He is given charge of Paul and Silas, and puts them into the inner prison, ensuring their comfort by fastening their feet in the stocks.

From the Biblical evidence thus far, what can we know that PJ had heard concerning the gospel of Christ? Keep in mind that Paul had been staying with Lydia, who did not seem to be of the sort to be well aquainted with the prison. From the Biblical record, it is likely that PJ (if he had heard anything at all) might have heard the proclamation of the aforementioned posessed woman, that Paul and Silas were showing the way of salvation.

Continuing on, we find Paul and silas praying and singing praises unto God at midnight, an hour at which most people not in prison for Christ were likely asleep.

We read further of the earthquake which loosed all the prisoners' bonds, and opened the doors of the prison.

Apparently, the earthquake also served to awaken PJ from his sleep, who, in his panic about the supposed escape of his prisoners, was ready to end his career as the jailer of Phillipi. Fortunately, Paul advises that this would be a bad career move, and PJ subsequently asks, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"

Before we go on to Paul's answer, let's examine the situation. Given the likelihood that PJ had heard the formerly demon-posessed woman's cries, and the certainty that PJ was asleep while Paul and Silas were praying and singing, what can we say that PJ knew of the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Personally, I think it unlikely that PJ had even heard the Name of Jesus Christ, let alone the message of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. We would agree that it is this message that a person must believe in order to be saved, correct?

With these facts and reasonable suppositions in mind, it is completely understandable that PJ would ask what he did. It also accounts for Paul's blanket statement about belief in Jesus Christ in 16:31.

Now, if we keep reading (VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT), we see that Paul and Silas "spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house." Now PJ can have faith (Rom 10:17).

In the next verse, we see PJ demonstrate repentance by taking them the same hour of the night and washing their stripes, and we see him and all his being 'baptized straightway".

Only after this do we find him rejoicing, "believing in God with all his house". His faith, repentance, and baptism are all included in the phrase, "believing in God".

If PJ had been saved by faith only, he'd have rejoiced after he heard the word of the Lord.

We've all got to keep things in context.

In Christ,
bmerr

 

My first response to you, bmerr, is that since you are COC, is to refrain from bosting in Baptist Only forums and post only in those areas which are designated for non-baptists.

Secondly, being from the COC, I understand where you are coming from because the COC teaches a works salvation, baptismal regeneration, among other heresies. They divide salvation up into five different "works," all of which must be completed before a person can be saved. This of course is totally unbiblical. Repentance is separated from faith, as is confession, and then baptism. What is the fifth act: belief or calling, or something like that, I can't remember.
No wonder you assume so much and read so much into that passage. You have not rightly divided the Word of Truth here. The account of the woman demonized with an evil spirit has nothing to do with the Philippian jailor as you supposed it to be. You assume that the Philippian jailor had not heard any of the gospel before Paul made the statement Acts 16:31, which is not necessarily true. You suppose all the inmates of the jail were sleeping which was not necessarily true, and no doubt very unlikely. Your suppositions are your own, and are simply reading into the Scriptures so-called facts that are not there. You do that to try to conveniently make baptism part of salvation. You thus deny that salvation is by faith, or that a man is justified by faith.
How sad!

Please post in forums designated for non-Baptists.
Further posts will be deleted from here.
DHK

 

Absolutely not! The verses which I said were irrelevant have no bearing whatsoever on the question of the identity of the "I" in Romans 7.

 

All men—pagans, Jews, and Christians—have the “inner man.” The ancient Jews (as in the Old Testament) commonly used their Hebrew word for “kidneys” for the “inner man.” Christians typically used their Greek word for “heart” for the “inner man,” but additional words and expression were used by them in the New Testament.

And neither do I, contrary to your malicious and deceitful implications. But I do quote from pagan writers, as did Paul, to illustrate Biblical truths, and in this case, to absolutely prove that the inner conflict between good and evil is very common among pagans.

Paul teaches absolutely nothing about any doctrine concerning the expression, “the inner man.” He simply uses the expression to denote the part of the unregenerate Jew who sought to obey the Law of Moses, in contrast to the OUTWARD MAN who sinned. You have created a 21st century doctrine based exclusively upon your misunderstanding of one phrase in the Bible!

 

The inner conflict between good and evil is described by many pagan writers. Here are some direct quotes along with an English translation.

Sed trahit invitam nova vis; aliudque cupido,
Mens aliud suadet. Video meliora, proboque;
Deteriora sequor.
Ovid, Met. lib. vii. ver. 19.

My reason this, my passion that persuades;
I see the right, and I approve it too;
Condemn the wrong, and yet the wrong pursue.


- indignum facinus! nunc ego et
Illam scelestam esse, et me miserum sentio:
Et taedet: et amore ardeo: et prudens, sciens,
Vivus, vidensque pereo: nec quid agam scio.
- Terent. Eun. ver. 70.

An unworthy act! Now I perceive that she is wicked, and I am wretched. I burn with love, and am vexed at it. Although prudent, and intelligent, and active, and seeing, I perish; neither do I know what to do.


Sed quia mente minus validus, quam corpore toto,
Quae nocuere, sequar; fugiam, quae profore credam.
Hor. Ep. lib. i. E. 8, ver. 7.

More in my mind than body lie my pains:
Whate’er may hurt me, I with joy pursue;
Whate’er may do me good, with horror view.


Επει γαρ ὁ ἁμαρτανων ου θελει ἁμαρτανειν, αλλα κατορθωσαι δηλον ὁτι, ὁ μεν θελει, ου ποιει, και ὁμη θελει, ποιει.
Arrian. Epist. ii. 26.

For, truly, he who sins does not will sin, but wishes to walk uprightly: yet it is manifest that what he wills he doth not; and what he wills not he doth.


- αλλα νικωμαι κακοις,
Και μανθανω μεν, οἱα τολμησω κακα
Θυμος δε κρεισσῳν των εμων βουλευματων,
Ὁσπερ μεγιστων αιτος κακων βροτοις.
- Eurip. Med. v. 1077.

- But I am overcome by sin,
And I well understand the evil which I presume to commit.
Passion, however, is more powerful than my reason;
Which is the cause of the greatest evils to mortal men.

 

The man in Romans 7:14-25 is described by Paul as being “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.” Some would have us to ignore the fact that the present tense “I” is rhetorical and have us to believe that Paul, after he was redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, was “sold into bondage to sin” and was practicing the very evil that he did not want to do,

Rom. 719. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

making him a very much worse sinner than he was before he was saved. This view is absolutely preposterous. Indeed, Paul wrote of himself,

Phil. 3:2. Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision;
3. for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh,
4. although I myself might have confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far more:
5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

1 Tim. 1: 8. But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9. realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10. and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11. according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
12. I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,
13. even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;
14. and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

Paul says it himself! He did not succumb to the temptation to do those things that he hated and knew were wrong; the sins that Paul committed before he was saved were sin of “ignorance.” How could anyone think that after Paul got saved, he became a much worse sinner than he was before? Perhaps that happened to you, but that didn’t happen to me, and I don’t believe that it happened to the Apostle Paul.”

• Paul told us in Roman 6:3 “that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?”

• Paul told us in Rom. 7:4 that we “were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ.”

• Paul wrote of himself in Gal. 2:20. "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Whom do you this day choose to believe, the Apostle Paul—or those who say that all Christians are “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.”

There are conditions to salvation. We must believe the gospel message and we must be born again. And upon being born again, we become the Bride of Christ, and we cannot become the Bride of Christ unless we have first been made to die to the Law through the body of Christ,

Rom. 7:4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Therefore, being born again involves dying to sin, to self, and the Law.

(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

 

Absolutely not! The verses which I said were irrelevant have no bearing whatsoever on the question of the identity of the "I" in Romans 7.

</font>[/QUOTE]Have no bearing on the IDENTITY?

Yes, they do. The verses IDENTIFY the man as a BELIEVER, who has the new nature.

 

All men—pagans, Jews, and Christians—have the “inner man.” The ancient Jews (as in the Old Testament) commonly used their Hebrew word for “kidneys” for the “inner man.” Christians typically used their Greek word for “heart” for the “inner man,” but additional words and expression were used by them in the New Testament.

And neither do I, contrary to your malicious and deceitful implications. But I do quote from pagan writers, as did Paul, to illustrate Biblical truths, and in this case, to absolutely prove that the inner conflict between good and evil is very common among pagans.

Paul teaches absolutely nothing about any doctrine concerning the expression, “the inner man.” He simply uses the expression to denote the part of the unregenerate Jew who sought to obey the Law of Moses, in contrast to the OUTWARD MAN who sinned. You have created a 21st century doctrine based exclusively upon your misunderstanding of one phrase in the Bible!

</font>[/QUOTE]It's nice that you want to give your opinion as to the INWARD MAN, but how bout' some Scripture? That's your PROOFTEXTING with pagans. (The opinions and teachings of Ancient Jews or Early Christians won't work AS Scripture.)

Malicious and deceitful? No, you just got caught with your pants down by CONTRADICTING the Bible concerning the BIBBLE TERM, inward man, who YOU SAID, pagan writers wrote about. It's not mean to IDENTIFY incompetence in the Book.

Problem is Craig, you didn't ILLUSTRATE a "biblical" truth. You're trying to DOCUMENT a truth FROM PAGAN WRITERS inserting it into the Bible, where it's NOT FOUND distorting the bible verses, which are DEFINED THEREIN.

IN THE BIBLE, all men DO NOT HAVE the inward man of Pauline doctrinal teaching. YOU HAVE NO VERSES for teachings OR conformation. I've already given them.

Wrong again, Craig. HE TEACHES THESE THINGS CONCERNING THE MAN IN THESE CHAPTERS.

The INWARD MAN is the "regenerated nature" of the bellever. (Rom.7, 2 Cor.4, Eph.5, Col.3)

You redundantly REPEAT your pagan speculation concerning the man in Rom.7 stating that it is an UNREGENERATE JEW "using" for prooftexts your QUOTATIONS from pagans.

Sorry, that won't work.

You have still evaded the verses posted.

 

You can't get BIBLE DOCTRINE, can you?

CONSCIENCE (Rom.2) effects every man.

The INWARD MAN EFFECTS only Christians which is the WAR OF THE FLESH AGAINST THE SPIRIT.

The new man is ALIVE. The old man is DEAD.

Your pagans don't mean a thing when it comes to teaching correct bible doctrine in Rom.7.

 

Now that exposition was deceitful, which corrupted the words of God. (2 Cor.2, 4)

Sold into bondage is a reference to him BEFORE HIS SALVATION, and "practicing" evil IS NOT the subject of the text. THE SUBJECT IS THE DUALITY OF NATURES WITHIN A BELIEVER. (The context of chapter 7 IS chapter 6 concerning the NEW NATURE.)

You then go into your elaborate "speculative, hypothetical scheme", which you "think" gives credence to your FALSE INTERPRETATION.

Paul gives the corroborative statement.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


The Holy Scriptures make it clear that I am FREE FROM SIN and DEATH, not under the law, and my SIN IS NOT IMPUTED unto me. (Rom.6-8)

I DO NOT HAVE to sin. (1 Cor.10:13)

Nobody thinks that Paul is a MUCH WORSE SINNER than when he got saved. That's your MENTAL GYNASTICISM to "create" a false impression.

The ONLY REQUIREMENT for salvation is "belief". (Rom.1,3,Eph.1)

Grace doesn't include works. (Titus 3:5, Rom.11:6)

There are ORDAINED WORKS which "you should" walk in, but they are not required for salvation. (Eph.2:10, Titus 3:8)

You really should believe the apostle Paul INSTEAD of those pagans, who don't have a CLUE about the NEW NATURE. (inward man of Rom.7)

[ April 29, 2005, 04:49 AM: Message edited by: carlaimpinge ]

 

“In order to be able to expound the Scriptures, and as an aid to your pulpit studies, you will need to be familiar with the commentators: a glorious army, let me tell you, whose acquaintance will be your delight and profit. Of course, you are not such wiseacres as to think or say that you can expound Scripture without assistance from the works of divines and learned men who have laboured before you in the field of exposition. If you are of that opinion, pray remain so, for you are not worth the trouble of conversion, and like a little coterie who think with you, would resent the attempt as an insult to your infallibility. It seems odd, that certain men who talk so much of what the Holy Spirit reveals to themselves, should think so little of what he has revealed to others.”

Charles Haddon Spurgeon