Conditional salvation?

John 10:28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

Hebrews 7:25. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Are you sure that you posted the right verses? These verses speak only of the faithfulness of God and have no relevance whatsoever to the conditions that the Bible sets forth for salvation. The problem is not that God is unfaithful; the problem is that man is unfaithful. I have already in this very thread posted several scriptures that explicitly and incontrovertible teach that there are conditions which man must meet in order to be initially justified and in order to remain saved till the time of glorification. You have posted absolutely no refutation to any of those verses but have simply posted irrelevant verses that have no bearing of any kind upon the issue of conditions for salvation.

Matt. 13:20. "The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21. yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away.

Mark 4:16. "In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
17. and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Luke 8:13. "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.

John 15:5. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8. "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9. "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10. "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11. "These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

1 Cor. 9:27. but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

1 Cor. 10:11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.

Col. 1:21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

2 Thes. 2:3. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
4. who opposes and exalts himself above every so- called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
5. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?
6. And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.
7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.
8. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;
9. that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,
10. and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12. in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

1 Tim. 4:1. But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
2. by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
3. men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

2 Tim 4:1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Heb. 3:12. Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Heb. 10:26. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27. but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30. For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31. It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

2 Pet. 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5. and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7. and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8. (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9. then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10. and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11. whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13. suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14. having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15. forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16. but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17. These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19. promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

2 Pet. 3:14. Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15. and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you,
16. as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,
18. but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

4. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5. Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.
6. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
7. just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8. Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties.
9. But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10. But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
11. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.
12. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted;
13. wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14. It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,
15. to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
16. These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.
Keep Yourselves in the Love of God
17. But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,
18. that they were saying to you, "In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
19. These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly- minded, devoid of the Spirit.
20. But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
21. keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.

***************************

Let’s not forget that the doctrine of OSAS is a new doctrine, having first been taught in the 16th century by twisting and distorting the Scriptures to tickle the ears of the man who chooses to keep his favorite sins.

2 Tim 4:1. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2. preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4. and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

 

In my post above, all of the Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995.

 

There it is. Classic Galatianism, which Paul the apostle IDENTIFIED, REFUTED, and CORRECTED "years" ago.

They teach you have to DO SOMETHING to get saved AND do something to STAY SAVED! (See Acts 15 and the book of Galatians.)

No refutation to WORKS?

(Rom.11:6, Eph.2:8-9, Titus 3:5)

Simple bible comparison from Paul through the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor.2)

 

Craigbythesea: //Let’s not forget that the doctrine of OSAS is a new doctrine,
having first been taught in the 16th century by twisting and distorting
the Scriptures to tickle the ears of the man who chooses
to keep his favorite sins.//

The doctrine of OSAS has been taught continously by true Christians from
the day Jesus was Resurrected. THe NAME "Once Saved, Always Saved = OSAS"
well may originate from the 1500s; the concept is part of church doctrine
and found in the New Testament.

//John 10:28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

//Hebrews 7:25. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

Craigbythessea: //Are you sure that you posted the right verses?
These verses speak only of the faithfulness of God and have
no relevance whatsoever to the conditions that the Bible sets
forth for salvation.//

OSAS is about the faithfulness of God, not about the infidelity of mankind.
Frankly brother, you confuse the good works that a saved person will do,
once they are saved AND the good works one must do to be saved. This
is common because there are no set of good works you can do to save yourself.
Jesus saves. Jesus saves to the uttermost and eternally.

Grace = unmerited favor of God
or better still: Grace = the unconditional favor of God.

Here is OSAS from the New Testament: John 3:16 (Geneva Bible, 1585):
For God so loued the worlde,
that hee hath giuen his onely begotten Sonne,
that whosoeuer beleeueth in him,
should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

 

It's all a matter of one's point of view or bias. Mine is different than yours.

From my point of view all of your passages relate to those who were never born again.

They are/were "religious" even to the point of deceiving others but nonetheless lost. The best example is that of Judas who fooled everyone but the Lord.

The one born of the eternal Spirit receives eternal life which by definition is life which never ends.

What men have taught in the past doesn't matter, the inspired Scriptures are the final authority not the writings and second-guesses of men.

The Church of Rome says the same thing about several other doctrine which they say have always been taught by the Church (the Real Presence in the "eucharist", etc).

This is what my Savior says to me: "...they shall never perish". Perhaps all these "Christian" authors you have read did indeed perish, I don't know. I do know from the Scripture that I will not.

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

I also know that no one can convince me otherwise because of the some other words of my Savior: "...no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand".

I choose to believe Him and not these whom you have read who have no hope.

Believe what you will, that is your right.

HankD

 

Speaking of "point of view".
The verses Craig posted have nothing to do with salvation in eternity, nor are they conditional salvation in eternity. From my perspective, they are conditional for receiving the reward of Milleniel Reign with Christ.
OSAS is Biblical. Conditional rewards is Biblical.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

How can you blatantly deny the truths of the Word of God??? I John 5 has nothing to do with the millenial reign!

 

How can you blatantly accuse me of something you obviously didn't read me saying?
Try again pardner.
Show me where I alluded to 1 John 5.
Otherwise, I am expecting a retraction and apology from you.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

First of all, remember, this is the internet, responses don't always appear in time sequence, so no, I win ll not retract nor apologize seeing that my response was not directed towards you but "Hank."

 

Heb. 6:4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Heb. 6:4-5 is the clearest and most detailed description of a born-again Christian that appears anywhere in the entire Bible. No where in the entire Bible or patristic literature are any of these descriptive terms used of an unregenerate man.

Enlightened—compare: Heb. 10:32. But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings. Enlightened and illuminated are both translations of the identical Greek word.

Tasted the heavenly gift—compare: Eph.2:8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Eph. 3:7. of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. 1 Peter 2:3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

Partakers of the Holy Spirit—compare: Acts 15:8. "So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us.” Gal. 3:2. This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal. 3:5. Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come—compare Heb. 2:2. For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3. how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4. God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
5. For He has not put the world to come, of which we speak, in subjection to angels.

Col. 1:21. And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
22. in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and irreproachable in His sight
23. if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Where in this verse do you find Jesus saying that, upon our salvation, He takes away our freedom to choose whom we shall follow and whom we shall live with? Christians retain their freedom to choose and they are not hogtied like a wild pig and thrown into a dungeon in chains where they cannot get away from Jesus no matter how hard they try. No man is able to pluck us from the hand of our Father, but we have the freedom to leave anytime we choose and there are absolutely no Scriptures in the Bible that so much as hint to the contrary. You can keep on quoting this promise all that you want to, but quoting it does not change the reality to which it does not apply.

The truth is that I quoted no one but New Testament writers.

 

And your doctrine that naughty Christians will spend the millennium in hell is a heresy from hell.

 

The Galatian has quoted Hebrews 6, which doctrinally refers to the nation of Israel, the Hebrews, NOT the body of Christ.

He has also quoted Col.1, which IS NOT SPEAKING OF SALVATION, but YOUR PRESENTATION before God the Father. You can he holy, unblameable, and unreprovable IN HIS SIGHT! (Eph.5, 1 Thess.5)

How? BY CONTINUING IN THE FAITH, not adhering to FALSE DOCTRINAL TEACHING as the Galatian has apparently done! (2 Tim.3-4)

You will be JUDGED for these things. (1 Cor.3, Col.3)

Salvation by works (ANY OF THEM) is "foreign" to the Pauline epistles written to the Body of Christ.

Pauline dispensationalism comes through LOUD AND CLEAR. (Eph.3, Col.1, 1 Cor.9)

 

Amen, Brother Av1611jim -- Preach it!

Proverbs 18:10 (KJV1611):
The name of the Lord is a a strong tower:
the righteous runneth into it, and +is safe.

Translator's side note:
+Heb. set alofte

This image is of a tower in a field.
One goes into it, goes aloft and is safe.
Our salvation is like this, our salvation
depends upon the Lord, not upon ourselves
as in a works based salvation continuation.
Interesting, OSAS is
found in the Old Testament!
This is way before the 16th century

 

And your doctrine that naughty Christians will spend the millennium in hell is a heresy from hell.

</font>[/QUOTE]I call
I think you are bluffing.
Show where this Brother in Christ
said anything close to
what you say he said.

 

Brother Ed,

I wish, more than you could possibly imagine, that I was bluffing, but I am not. This member is a believer in the Joey Faust Heresy of millennial punishment, and he has posted to that effect all over this board. Havest thou been sleeping, Ed?

The Joey Faust Heresy and the Zane Hodges Heresy arose out of an attempt to reconcile the clear and indisputable warnings in the Bible that some born-again believers will be sent to hell with the doctrine of OSAS. Since the fact that the Scriptures incontrovertibly teach that some born-again believers will be sent to hell, those who hold to the Joey Faust Heresy teach that wayward Christians will indeed be sent to hell, but only during the millennium, and that they will then be sent to spend the rest of eternity with Christ. Those who hold to the Zane Hodges Heresy teach that wayward Christians will indeed be sent to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, which they claim is a “suburb” of heaven, but only during the millennium, and that they will then sent to spend the rest of eternity with Christ. Of course the truth is, as all Christians believed and taught for 1500 years, and as the large majority of Christians believe and teach today, is that wayward Christians, if they fall from grace, will spend eternity in the fires of hell.

 

Why do so many Christians refuse to tell the truth?

The Bible says,

1 Cor. 10:1. For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea;
2. and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3. and all ate the same spiritual food;
4. and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
5. Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
6. Now these things happened as examples for us, so that we would not crave evil things as they also craved.
7. Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND STOOD UP TO PLAY."
8. Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day.
9. Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents.
10. Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer.
11. Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall.
(NASB, 1995)

 

OH, OK, but what was it again that I said that offended you (or did I offend you?)?

Obviously I am confused.

HankD

 

True.

But I'll repeat the essence of something else I said: That one's position concerning this matter of "Conditional salvation" is a point of view which comes out of one's method of Bible interpretation and it's proper application.

Obviously we have a difference.

HankD

 

L2DY:
Then please address your reply as such, sir. On this board it is custom to directly address or quote the person you are replying to unless your post is immediately following that person's post to which you are replying.
And Hank said nothing about 1 John 5 being related to the millenium. I am the one who first mentioned the Millenial Reign Of Christ. So you are wrong on both counts.
(I jes' wanna' be a eh'p to ye!)
FYI
In HIS service;
Jim

 

While Bro. Joey Faust does indeed teach what Craig has said he does, and Bro. Hodges does indeed teach what Craig said he does and I do indeed believe that disobedient christians will be excluded from the Millenium: for Craig to make the leap that I believe the same as Bro.'s Hodges or Faust is the epitome of conclusion jumping!!!
FYI; Bro. Charles Stanley seems to think the the "outer darkness" is undefined yet christians who are unfaithful are sent there. (How 'bout that? An SBC big time Preacher who believes in Millenial Exclusion?)
I haven't completely decided and I am not dogmatic as to the abode for the unfaithful christian. Scripture is clear, however, as Bro. Craig has so effectively pointed out that the unfaithful do indeed miss the party!

In HIS service;
Jim