Conditional salvation?

According to your method of Bible interpretation, all of the Early Church Fathers, whom it pleased God to use to establish the New Testament Canon and to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity, were a bunch of dingbats and dimwits who couldn’t understand the Bible. And according to your method of interpretation, all of the Bible scholars who lived prior to the 16th century were a bunch of incompetent fools who couldn’t understand the Bible. And according to your method of interpretation, the large majority of Bible scholars who lived during the past four centuries were a bunch of meatheads who couldn’t understand the Bible. And according to your method of interpretation, the large majority of Bible scholars who are alive today still do not understand what the Bible says about salvation. And according to your method of interpretation, you do understand what the Bible says about salvation.

Of course, however, there is that other possibility—that the Bible was written by a twelve-year-old with poor communication skills and that it is, therefore, extremely difficult—if not impossible—to understand, and yet you, of all people, have figured it out.

According to my method of interpretation, the Early Church Fathers, whom it pleased God to use to establish the New Testament Canon and to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity, were anointed men of wisdom and learning who clearly understood what the Bible says about conditional salvation. And according to my method of interpretation, the Bible scholars who lived prior to the 16th century were a mixed lot, but they all understood that the Bible teaches conditional salvation. And according to my method of interpretation, the large majority of Bible scholars who lived during the past four centuries were a mixed lot, but they all understood that the Bible teaches conditional salvation. And according to my method of interpretation, the large majority of Bible scholars who are alive today do understand that the Bible teaches conditional salvation. And according to my method of interpretation, I do understand what the Bible says about salvation, and what I believe about salvation is in harmony with what the Early Church Fathers believed about conditional salvation; it is in harmony with what Bible scholars who lived prior to the 16th century believed about conditional salvation; it is in harmony with what the large majority of Bible scholars who lived during the past four centuries believed about conditional salvation; and it is in harmony with what the large majority of Bible scholars who are alive today believe about conditional salvation.

Of course I do not believe that the Bible was written by a twelve-year-old with poor communication skills and that it is, therefore, extremely difficult—if not impossible—to understand. I believe that it is the inspired Word of God that was so perfectly worded that no one misunderstood that the Bible teaches conditional salvation until John Calvin allowed Satan to deceive him, and in turn deceived many others, either directly or indirectly.

 

Of course. I don’t post hearsay; I post facts that are conclusively documented.

The only leap that I have made, if I have made one at all, is to believe that you believe the Joey Faust Heresy that is preached and taught by Lacy Evans and other preachers of damnable lies which you have defended in other threads on this message board and which you have stated that you believe in.

Thank God for that. May God ultimately spare you of the fires of hell that await the false teachers of damnable lies and heresies.

Amen!

Jim, this is a VERY important matter. PLEASE diligently pray to God to teach you His truths and to protect you from error.

 

Well, well. It appears that the HERESIES of Arminianism and Calvinistic-Accountability (aka, millenial exclusionism) have reared their UGLY HEADS again.

They CAN'T be reconciled WITHOUT Pauline dispensationalism. Paul EXPLAINED the mystery of the body of Christ AND the NOT YET, for the Hebrew nation, which is to INHERIT the land. (Rom.9-11, Heb.1-13, Eph.2-3)

The "falsehoods" are produced by WRONG DIVISION of the word of truth, APPLYING scriptures unto those for whom they were not written DISPENSATIONALLY.

False application to teach HERESY is used by "fundamental, conservative, godly, Baptists" JUST LIKE any Seventh Day Adventist, Church of Christ, Roman Catholic, Jehovah Witness, or Mormon.

 

Craigbythesea: "According to your method of Bible interpretation, ... "

This is very poor form. This manner debases the one to whom "your"
speaks as though he is incapable of writing his own understanding
of the matter. You are creating false strawment (which you usually
then burn with fervernt heat). This is NOT a good way to get
to the truth of a matter. Sorry brother, but this produces much
heat and little light.

I did the arithemetic. Not all true Christians will be needed to
serve Christ in the Millinnial kingdom. Today there are are 18 Million
Jews and 6,000 Million Gentiles living on the earth. Many of
these gentiles may die in the coming Tribulation period. Of the
6,000 Million Gentiles only some 2,000 Million (one third) are said
to be Christians by man's standards. If only 10% are real Christians
(on God's short list) that leaves 200 Million that will be raptured,
if the Lord comes in the next few years (and He may) at the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection. That alone would make, if all
Christians serve in the Milllinnial Kingdom ten gentile Christians to
lead one Jewish person. Sorry, leadership works the other way around:
one leader to many lead. Judgship works the other way around, one judge
to many judged. IMHO the 144,000 would be sufficient to lead the
18 million Jews that exist today. Only the 144,000 are necessary to
be rewarded by inclusion in the physical millinnial Kingdom of Christ.

Av1611jim: "I do indeed believe that disobedient christians
will be excluded from the Millenium"

I respectfully disagree with you. I do agree with:
Not all Christians will be needed to serve FULL TIME in the Millennial Kingdom.
Only those who God needs to serve in the Millennial Kingdom will
be rewarded with full time Millennial Kingdom service.
Some who do not serve in the Millennial Kingdom will have been totally
faithful Christians who just aren't needed. BTW, i can't see Jesus selecting
someone to rule over the Jews in the Millennial Kingdom who is half-way
anti-Semetic -- that just seems dumb

Craigbythesea: "According to my method of interpretation, the Early Church Fathers, whom it pleased God to use to establish the New Testament Canon and to formalize the doctrine of the Trinity, were anointed men of wisdom and learning who clearly understood what the Bible says about conditional salvation. ... "

If you follow your logic not too much futher, you get to the part where
there was nobody after the ECF (early Church Fathers) who could derive
additional data outside what they ECF knew and understood. The Way could
not adjust to changing world conditions to save more people in the centuries
ofter the ECF. Sad, those who cannot discern between having a word
like "Trinity" and having the doctrine that the word stands for. Sorry, but
'Trinity' doesn't show up in the Bible,. Sad, those who cannot discern between
the concept of Security Salvation and it's name: "OSAS = once saved, always
saved". The concept comes from the Bible, the name comes from some 16th
Century Christian scholars who understood more about God and God's ways
than did the ECF.

 

I said nothing about 'incompetent fools' and 'meatheads'. Those are your words.

They also developed the doctrine of the 'Real Presence' in the Eucharist. baptismal regeneration, etc.

Yes. It's eternal "...And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish".

No one (you or anyone else human or otherwise), can take it away from me: "...neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand".

I know that I have eternal life (as opposed to life today but maybe not tomorrow).

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

My Savior is a full time Savior (24/7), not part-time like Moses, Aaron and Levi of old.

Hebrews 7
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

I could care less about what John Calvin said or taught.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

HankD

 

I find it hilarious that Carl would be so vehement in his refutation of Milleniel Exclusion in one breath and in the other quote one of the very passages which teaches it while he is applying it to someone he thinks is in error!
OH!!! and THEN he sees his mistake and deletes it! 1 Cor 3:13

As someone once said on Laugh-in "Veeeery interesting! But stupid!"

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Well said Brother ed! And Bravo!

Lacy

 

Is that the mind of an incalcuable incompetent speaking with authority? (Goldie Hawn, silly woman)

Sorry bud, NONE of the passages quoted TEACH millennial exclusionism.

I don't THINK Craig is "in error" for teaching WORKS for salvation. I know it, and can read it IN THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. I can post the verses which refute it, LIKE I'VE PRODUCED THE ONES WHICH REFUTE YOUR HERESY also.

No mistake. But there's plenty of babbling going on by yourself that should be deleted.

Typical chicanery from those who can't defend their position biblically.

 

Amen, Brother HankD -- Preach it!


edited: sorry, i can't seem to find the
post of Brohter HankD that i'm agreeing with

 

Yes. It's eternal "...And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish".

No one (you or anyone else human or otherwise), can take it away from me: "...neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand".

I know that I have eternal life (as opposed to life today but maybe not tomorrow).

1John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

My Savior is a full time Savior (24/7), not part-time like Moses, Aaron and Levi of old.

Hebrews 7
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

I could care less about what John Calvin said or taught.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

HankD </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother HankV -- Preach it!

 

1Chron. 26:18 And Parbar Westward, foure at the causey, and two at Parbar. (KJV, 1611)

 

I have never said that Calvin "started" it all. Augustine did NOT teach OSAS.

 

CHRIST HIMSELF SPEAKING IN John 3:14-16 SAYS:

"Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the son of Man must be lifted up, THAT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, for God so loved the world, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

John 3:18 Whoever believe in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe in him stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 6:35-37 (Christ speaking) "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never be hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. "

John 11:25-26 (Christ speaking) "I am the resurrection and hte life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Acts 13:38-39 "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."

Romans 1:16 "I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew; then for the Gentile."

Repentence can't save you. Jews repented via sacrifices. Christ said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes unto the Father, except by me."

The key IS belief.
Repentence comes as an act of obeidence to Christ.
Paul puts it that if someone claims to be a brother, and sins without repenting, we should be assured they weren't a brother to begin with because once Christ is in us, Christ will not abide by unrepentant sin. Christ is the key.

 

The key is the Greek present participle rather than the Greek aorist indicative tense that is used in the verses that so very many Baptists seriously misunderstand. In the Greek New Testament, eternal life is promised only to those who are currently believing in Christ (Greek present participle). There is no promise in the Greek New Testament of eternal life to those who believed at one time or another but no longer believe (aorist indicative tense). It is no accident that that the teaching of OSAS was not “discovered” in the Bible for 1500 years. It is not there, but only imagined to be there.

For example,

John 3:18. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (NASB, 1995)

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

John 11:25. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26. and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

Rom. 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

John 6:47. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

Acts 13:38. "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39. and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

John 6:35. Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36. "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

All of these promises are exclusively to those who are continuing to believe at the present time. What happens if a person ceases to believe? The Bible answers that question very clearly,

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

(All Scriptures, NASB, 1995)

 

The key is the Greek present participle rather than the Greek aorist indicative tense that is used in the verses that so very many Baptists seriously misunderstand. In the Greek New Testament, eternal life is promised only to those who are currently believing in Christ (Greek present participle). There is no promise in the Greek New Testament of eternal life to those who believed at one time or another but no longer believe (aorist indicative tense). It is no accident that that the teaching of OSAS was not “discovered” in the Bible for 1500 years. It is not there, but only imagined to be there.

For example,

John 3:18. "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (NASB, 1995)

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

John 11:25. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26. and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

Rom. 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

John 6:47. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

Acts 13:38. "Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through Him forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you,
39. and through Him everyone who believes is freed from all things, from which you could not be freed through the Law of Moses.

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

Another example,

John 6:35. Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36. "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

The Greek word translated “believes” is a present participle rather than the aorist indicative tense, indicating continuous belief at the present time rather than belief at a point in past time.

All of these promises are exclusively to those who are continuing to believe at the present time. What happens if a person ceases to believe? The Bible answers that question very clearly,

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

(All Scriptures, NASB, 1995)

</font>[/QUOTE]While this poor soul is basing his belief on the "present participle", I'll base mine on what Paul SAID about belief.

2 Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.


Craig, as so many other Galatians, is teaching the CONTINUAL WILL OF MAN keeps you, as long as you have faith in Christ.

John SAID this corroborating Paul.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Your SALVATION came at ONE POINT in your life. It was when you BELIEVED.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Craig, ABSOULUTELY and POSITIVELY doesn't know what he's talking about. He CONTRADICTS Pauline doctrinal truth. It is the teaching of "another gospel", which is the PERVERSION of Paul's. (Gal.1)

 

(KJV)
1Co 3:4
For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Co 3:5
¶ Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Co 3:6
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Co 3:7
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Here we see Paul giving folks his own assessment of how high up the ladder he thinks of himself.

This "Pauline Dispensationalism" reeks of spoiled baloney. Paul doesn't teach anything different than Jesus did, nor what Peter did, nor John, nor James.

That it unless you believe in "penknife" scholarship. For reference see Jeremiah and what the king did when he didn't like the plain language he read.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

I have never said that Calvin "started" it all. Augustine did NOT teach OSAS.

</font>[/QUOTE]===


As I recall on May 5 at 5:27 PM in the thread "Sinless Perfection" you said that the doctrine of eternal security was not taught, indeed, was "unknown" for 1500 years. You said it was "invented" in the 16thc. I thought you meant by Calvin. If you did not mean Calvin, then, whom did you mean?

If Augustine does not teach eternal security, then what is your understanding of chapters 34,35 in his work on "Predestination" and chapters 9, 33 in his work on "The gift of Perseverance" ?

 

Carl wrote,

Some people seem not to have noticed that those "present participles" were spoken by Jesus and written by the Apostle Paul .

As for 2 Timothy 2:13, I don’t believe in just one verse taken completely out of context to twist and distort what Paul really said, I believe every word written by Paul, including these three verses:

2 Tim. 1:11. It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12. If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13. If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

This passage of Scripture explicitly says that if we (born-again Christians) deny Him (our Savior), He (our Savior) will deny us (you and me, born-again Christians). He (our Savior) remains faithful, even if we are not, and He cannot deny Himself, but He will deny those Christians who do not endure and who thereby deny Him. “If we endure” is a conditional clause and explicitly teaches conditional salvation.

The faithfulness of Christ is taught throughout the New Testament. But we all know that as faithful as the husband may be, the bride is not always faithful, and many brides, after the consummation of the marriage, and, in many cases, after many years of faithfulness, subsequently abandon their faithfulness and leave their faithful husband. In the New Testament the Church is likened to the bride, and Christ is likened to the husband.

Eph. 5:22. Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord.
23. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body.
24. But as the church is subject to Christ, so also the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything.
25. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
26. so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
27. that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
28. So husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself;
29. for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church,
30. because we are members of His body.
31. FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND SHALL BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH.
32. This mystery is great; but I am speaking with reference to Christ and the church.

(All Scriptures, NASB, 1995; the emphasis in bold type is mine)

 

AV 1611 has "again" proved that he HANDLES the scriptures deceitfully, just as any "Church of Christ" preacher quotes Acts 2:38 for SALVATION by water baptism for Gentiles. (Which disregards the context)

The passage of 1 Cor.3 doesn't speak of FOLLOWING TEACHINGS, but of GLORYING IN MEN.

Paul SPOKE of following TEACHINGS and HIM in 1 Cor.4. HIS WAYS were to be followed.

The "deceived" man IDENTIFIES his own self as the PENKNIFE MAN, due to his HATRED (see Jer.36) of what was WRITTEN. (Rightly DIVIDING the word of truth by Paul.)

To state that Paul didn't teaching anything different than Jesus, Peter, etc. is "absolute" falsity, LUNACY, and corruption of the words of God.

Progressive revelation kills bible perverters every single time.

(It killed the Church of Christ preachers in Acts 10, when the Holy Spirit FELL "without" water baptism, which is DIFFERENT than Acts 2!)

So much for those who don't understand Pauline dispensationalism. (Eph.3, 2 Peter 3) They are UNLEARNED and UNSTABLE "wresting" the scriptures unto their own destruction!