Conditional salvation?

[Craigbythesea]

Why would Paul need to preach to new believers(not unbelievers) to live right and some to give up habits they had before they were saved - if the regeneration process had already cleaned them up?

Some “saved” believers are partially living in the domain of darkness, and therefore have not been completely transferred to the kingdom of our Savior. In Colossians we read about the state of the truly saved believer,

13. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

(NASB, 1995—my emphasis using bold type)

But even for this truly saved believer, there remains yet a CONDITION that MUST be fulfilled for that saved believer to enter into glory with Christ. He MUST CONTINUE to be faithful. Some Christians try in vain to sweep that condition underneath their dirty carpet, but when they do so, it makes a lump, and brings discredit to the gospel message.

 

[steaver]

It is true that repent is change of mind as change from unbelief to belief, but it is also more than that. It also astain from evil, turn from old habits, and turn toward Christ with sorrow repentance, ask for forgive and confess believe Christ died for our sins, and believe Christ was risen from the dead.

Repent from unbelief to belief is required for salvation. Repentance of sins is a sanctification process once "saved". It WILL happen! Some slowly, some more quickly. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you WHOLLY; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. FAITHFUL is he that CALLETH YOU, who also WILL DO IT ." (1 Thess 5:23-24)

God Bless!

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us. We MUST die to sin if we wish to be saved from the fires of hell.

Craigbythesea,

I think this is the most direct and concise statement I have heard from you on this board as to what you believe about salvation.

So in keeping with your direct statement, would you care to elaborate on your statement, and specifically your phrase "MUST die to sin":

I have asked you the following question before and you answered No

1. Are you saying we MUST stop sinning(become sinlessly perfect) to be saved from the fires of hell?

But then you never answered the followup questions:

2. If you answered No to the first question, must we become almost sinlessly perfect in order to escape the fires of hell? (Yes or No, then you can elaborate)


3. How much sin will God allow in our lives as Christians for us to enter heaven?


4. Do we receive the inputed rightousness of Christ at the momment of our salvation, or is it only after we live a good enough life(almost perfect), that we then receive the inputed perfect righteousness of Christ necessary for salvation?


5. Are you saying by this statement - "Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us" that you do not believe salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone? (Yes or No then you can elaborate)


IFBReformer

 

[IfbReformer]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Why would Paul need to preach to new believers(not unbelievers) to live right and some to give up habits they had before they were saved - if the regeneration process had already cleaned them up?

Some “saved” believers are partially living in the domain of darkness, and therefore have not been completely transferred to the kingdom of our Savior. In Colossians we read about the state of the truly saved believer,

13. For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14. in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.
19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,
20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21. And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22. yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
23. if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.

(NASB, 1995—my emphasis using bold type)

But even for this truly saved believer, there remains yet a CONDITION that MUST be fulfilled for that saved believer to enter into glory with Christ. He MUST CONTINUE to be faithful. Some Christians try in vain to sweep that condition underneath their dirty carpet, but when they do so, it makes a lump, and brings discredit to the gospel message.

</font>[/QUOTE]Craigbythesea,

What must the believer continue to be faithful in this passage? Its "the hope of the gospel". It not whether or not your good outweighs you bad at the end of you life. Its your hope in Christ and not your own works.

Any believer who places his assurance of salvation in his works(even those after salvation) has no real assurance of his salvation, only an assurance that is completely based in the finished work of Christ on the cross is enought to save us.

Craigbythesea, I am not questioning your salvation - but I think based on many other discussions we have had that you have no real objective assurance of your salvation - because for you, your belief and trust in Christ are not enough for assurance, you must also add your own works to the work of Christ and then how do you know if you ever have enough - you don't.

I don't pray that God will save you, because I believe you are saved, but I pray that God will give you the real assurance of your salvation you seem to lack.

IFBReformer

 

[Craigbythesea]

Repent from unbelief to belief is required for salvation. Repentance of sins is a sanctification process once "saved". It WILL happen! Some slowly, some more quickly. Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith.

The Bible teaches that the gospel, when accurately and properly preached, convicts the hearer of his sin and the righteousness of God, causes him to repent of his sin, and believe in the saving power of Christ, thus bringing him to salvation,

Acts 2:22. "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--
23. this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
24. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.
25. "For David says of Him, 'I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26. 'THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27. BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28. 'YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29. "Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30. "And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31. he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32. "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33. "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34. "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35. UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36. "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."
The Ingathering
37. Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38. Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39. "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
40. And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"

"And the very God of peace sanctify you WHOLLY; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. FAITHFUL is he that CALLETH YOU, who also WILL DO IT ." (1 Thess 5:23-24)

The hearer of the gospel message may not necessarily be convicted of each and every imperfection in his or her life, but they will certainly be convicted of sins in their life, and those sins MUST be repented of. The Corinthians were a hard lot. They heard and received the gospel of the kingdom of God, but they were so extremely entrenched in their sins that their response to the gospel was far from complete,

1. Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints?
2. Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?
3. Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?
4. So if you have law courts dealing with matters of this life, do you appoint them as judges who are of no account in the church?
5. I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren,
6. but brother goes to law with brother, and that before unbelievers?
7. Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8. On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10. nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (NASB, 1995)

Although these “Christians” were on the road to salvation, Paul explicitly told them that unless they repented of their sin they would not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (NASB, 1995)

Compare:

-- Revised Standard Version
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-- International English Version
1 Corinthians 1:18 To people who are being lost the message about Jesus' being nailed to a cross sounds silly, but it is God's power to us who are being saved.

-- New Jerusalem Bible
1 Corinthians 1:18 The message of the cross is folly for those who are on the way to ruin, but for those of us who are on the road to salvation it is the power of God.

-- New American Bible
1 Corinthians 1:18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-- New Revised Standard Version
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

--English Standard Version
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

-- Young's Bible
1 Corinthians 1:18 for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us - those being saved - it is the power of God,

-- Weymouth's New Testament
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the Message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are on the way to perdition, but it is the power of God to those whom He is saving.

-- New Living Translation
1 Corinthians 1:18 I know very well how foolish the message of the cross sounds to those who are on the road to destruction. But we who are being saved recognize this message as the very power of God.

-- International Standard Version
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message about the cross is nonsense to those who are being destroyed, but it is God's power to us who are being saved.

-- William's NewTestament
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is nonsense to those who are in the process&lt;j&gt; of being destroyed, but it is the power of God to those who are in the process&lt;j&gt; of being saved.

-- Montgomery New Testament
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the Cross is indeed for those on their way to destruction, foolishness; but for us who are on our way to salvation it is the power of God.

(The emphasis in bold type is mine)

 

[Craigbythesea]

What must the believer continue to be faithful in this passage? Its "the hope of the gospel".

That is NOT what my Bible says. My Bible says,

“if indeed you continue in the faith” I believe that it is safe to interpret this as meaning the Christian Faith.

It not whether or not your good outweighs you bad at the end of you life. Its your hope in Christ and not your own works.

My Bible says that it is whether or not “you continue in the faith.” Where in your Bible does it say that continuing in sin is continuing in the faith?

 

[Craigbythesea]

I don't pray that God will save you, because I believe you are saved, but I pray that God will give you the real assurance of your salvation you seem to lack.

Dear friend,

“Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." “You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”


James 2:17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself.
18. But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without {the} spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
(NASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us. We MUST die to sin if we wish to be saved from the fires of hell.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Craigbythesea,

I think this is the most direct and concise statement I have heard from you on this board as to what you believe about salvation.

So in keeping with your direct statement, would you care to elaborate on your statement, and specifically your phrase "MUST die to sin":

Throughout Paul’s Epistles we find him making a distinction between the covenant of Law and the covenant of grace. He makes the point in many places, especially in his Epistle to the Romans, that no man can be saved under the covenant of Law, and that keeping the Law of Moses is NOT necessary for salvation. But no where does Paul suggest that obeying Christ and His commandments is not absolutely necessary for salvation. Indeed, Paul went so far as to write that those who have been saved have “died to sin,” having “been baptized into Christ Jesus” and “baptized into His death.” And he does not stop there! He writes, “if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection.” Dying to sin is a requirement for our resurrection, and therefore dying to sin is a requirement for our salvation. Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us. We MUST die to sin if we wish to be saved from the fires of hell.

If this is still not clear to you, Paul wrote that there is a CONDITION required to be met for our resurrection. It is necessary that we have, in this present life, become united with Christ in the likeness of His death. And since this condition must be met for our resurrection, it most obviously must be met for us to be saved. (If a Christian misses out on the resurrection, how saved is he?).

1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13. and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[steaver]

Hi Craig,

I would also be interested in your answers to ifb's questions if you get the time.

1. Are you saying we MUST stop sinning(become sinlessly perfect) to be saved from the fires of hell?

But then you never answered the followup questions:

2. If you answered No to the first question, must we become almost sinlessly perfect in order to escape the fires of hell? (Yes or No, then you can elaborate)


3. How much sin will God allow in our lives as Christians for us to enter heaven?


4. Do we receive the inputed rightousness of Christ at the momment of our salvation, or is it only after we live a good enough life(almost perfect), that we then receive the inputed perfect righteousness of Christ necessary for salvation?


5. Are you saying by this statement - "Simply having faith and repenting of the worst of our sins in NOT enough to save us" that you do not believe salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone? (Yes or No then you can elaborate)

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Although these “Christians” were on the road to salvation, Paul explicitly told them that unless they repented of their sin they would not inherit the kingdom of God.

It is right that you put Christians in quotes for not all who say they are, really are. Paul was warning them to examine themselves, that maybe they didn't know Jesus Christ at all. Paul preached the Word, by the life he was witnessing in many of the Corinthians it made him seriously doubt their conversions.

" Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves, Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ?" (2 Cor 13:5)

One who is truly born again will know they have Jesus Christ living in them. The Holy Spirit will testify of the truth of the word against sin and your heart will be convicted of the sin your are in.
Paul didn't see any conviction in them when he spoke the Word. Therefore he had doubts that Christ was even in some of them, those who were causing all the stir.

God Bless!

 

[DHK]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--no condemnation; none!

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,

The only requirement for salvation is faith--faith and faith alone. That results in "no condemnation." It really is very simple.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Originally posted by DHK:
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
--no condemnation; none!

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,

The only requirement for salvation is faith--faith and faith alone. That results in "no condemnation." It really is very simple.
DHK

When we see the word “therefore” in Paul’s writings we need to backup and find out what the word “therefore” is there for. In the case of Romans 8:1, we need to look at what Paul has been writing up to that point. Basically he has asserted six things:

1. All have sinned, both Jews and Gentiles.

2. The wages of sin is death.

3. The Law of Moses did not have the power to save us; and rather than result in our redemption and life, it resulted in our condemnation and death.

4. What the law was powerless to do, Christ did do.

5. We are no longer under the Law, having died to it.

Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. (NASB, 1995)

6. And he who has died to the Law has also died to sin,

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (ESV)

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved,

The only requirement for salvation is faith--faith and faith alone. That results in "no condemnation." It really is very simple.

In Acts 16:31, Paul and Silas are speaking to one specific individual (the imperative verb is singular in the Greek text) and they tell him what he must do. The text does not tell us what he may have already done. He may have been, at this point in time, so very convicted of the sins in his life that he has already fully repented. Therefore, this verse does not tell us what we need to do, and it most certainly does not suggest that the only requirement for salvation is faith, because that would absolutely contradict the words of the brother of our Lord Jesus who wrote,

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for {their} body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, {being} by itself.
18. But someone may {well} say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without {the} spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Indeed, we must look at the full counsel of the Word of God and not “say it and claim it” based on only one verse totally severed from its context. And when we do look at the full counsel the Word of God, we find that for a man to be saved he must die to both the Law and to sin and be born again, and he must continue in the faith and not apostate from it.

Salvation is not cheap; it comes with the price of the death of our Savior and our own personal death in Christ to the Law and to sin. Cheap grace is NOT God’s grace, and it does not save. It may give a false sense of security for a while, but the outcome is eternal damnation in the fires of hell.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (KJV, 1769)

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
When we see the word “therefore” in Paul’s writings we need to backup and find out what the word “therefore” is there for. In the case of Romans 8:1, we need to look at what Paul has been writing up to that point.

Then why didn't you, instead of inserting your own pre-conceived ideas, and taking a verse here and there out of context. Now let's forget about the "six thngs" that he so-said" asserted and look at what he just said before Romans 8:1, as you suggested.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The entirety of the seventh chapter of Romans describe the war of the flesh fighting against the spirit, a war that every believer goes through every day. Paul cries out in verse 24:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

And then finally gives the answer at then end of the chapter in verse 25. The flesh submits to the law of sin; but it is the mind that serves the law of God. The battle is in the mind.
The fruit of one that is saved will be the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of one that is not saved will be the fruit of the flesh. This becomes very obvious in chapter 8 where Paul explains it thoroughly.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

When one is saved (by faith and faith alone) he has the Spirit. The Spirit indwells him. If any man have not the Spirit of God he is not of His. Again, it is that simple.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

The entirety of the seventh chapter of Romans describe the war of the flesh fighting against the spirit, a war that every believer goes through every day.

The view that you are expressing here could not be more incorrect. The conflict that Paul describes in Rom. 7 is NOT the war of the flesh fighting against the spirit. The conflict that Paul describes in Romans 7 is that of a Jew who wishes to obey the Law but who does not find in the Law the power to obey it. There is NO mention of the Holy Spirit because the Jew in Roman 7 does not have the Holy Spirit to help him in the war.

Indeed, the man in Romans 7:14-25 is “of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.” Our Savior did NOT die on the cross to sell us into bondage to sin; our Savior died on the cross to redeem us from the bondage of sin,

John 8:32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Paul was a Christian, and he wrote that Christians are dead to both the Law and to sin. How then, does it make any sense that Paul would strive to obey the Law of Moses, the very Law that he, through Christ, became dead to? And how does it make any sense that Paul could be sold into bondage to sin when in fact he was, through Christ, dead to sin.

The “I” in Romans 7 is rhetorical and was so understood by all the early Greek Church Fathers. Even Augustine, a later Latin Church Father understood the “I” in Romans 7 to be rhetorical. However, very late in his life, after lengthy and very difficult debates with the heretic Pelagius, Augustine recanted some of his teachings, including his teaching on Romans 7. The work in which Augustine recanted is known as The Retractions, and it is so very inferior to his other writings that it is almost never included in the collected writings of Augustine. Indeed, The Retractions are seldom met with and they are even difficult to find on the Internet or in very large libraries.

It was not until the 16th century that anyone paid a serious thought to the interpretation that Roman 7:14-25 could possibly be a description of a conflict within a Christian. John Calvin, however, popularized that view based upon the false assumption that verse 22 could not be possibly be said of an unregenerate Jew,

22. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

However, the research of the German scholar Friedrich August Tholuck in the first half of the 19th century proved that Calvin’s assumption was false, and in his commentary on Romans Tholuck quoted many ancient non-Christian writers who wrote words nearly identical to those of Paul to describe the conflict in their own lives.

Romans chapter seven is an excellent example of the error that a 21st century Christian can fall into if he does not carefully study the Bible. I have in my personal library 233 commentaries on Romans, and hundreds of additional volumes on Paul, his writings, and his theology, and there is a an obvious correlation between the spiritual condition of the church at any given time in the last 400 years and the predominant interpretation of Romans 7. During the times of spiritual revival, the predominant view of Romans 7 was the historical view that vv. 14-25 depicted, not a Christian, but an unregenerate Jew. During the times of spiritual decadence, the predominant view of Romans 7 was that it described Paul’s mature Christian experience. And now, as the church is entering a very dark time of spiritual decadence in America and even more so in Europe, the predominant view of Romans 7 is that it describes Paul’s mature Christian experience.

The multi-lingual Bible scholar Adam Clarke wrote in the first half of the 19th century,

“It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that “the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state.” This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified, and had not as yet heard those blessed words: Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way, hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, Act_9:17.”

 

[Craigbythesea]

The entirety of the seventh chapter of Romans describe the war of the flesh fighting against the spirit, a war that every believer goes through every day.

No, it is not!

If any of you on this message board are struggling to obey the Law but not finding in the Law the power to obey it, please take God at His word where He inspired the beloved Apostle Paul to write these words,

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2. May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3. Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin.
8. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9. knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
10. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
13. and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16. Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (NASB, 1995)

And hide in your heart this precious promise from Jesus Himself,

John 8:32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. (NASB, 1995)

My precious brothers and sisters, YOU CAN BE FREE FROM THE BONDAGE TO SIN. JESUS PROMISED THAT YOU CAN BE.

Please don’t believe the words of those who are yet in bondage to sin. Believe the words of your Savior who died and shed His blood on the cross to set you free.

 

[Craigbythesea]

When one is saved (by faith and faith alone) he has the Spirit. DHK

This is precisely the opposite of what the Bible says. Saving faith is NEVER alone. Indeed, no true faith is ever alone.

Consider for a moment the “faith chapter” in the Bible, Hebrews 11,

Hebrews 11

The Triumphs of Faith
1. Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
2. For by it the men of old gained approval.
3. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
4. By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.
5. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.
6. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
7. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.
8. By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10. for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.
11. By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised.
12. Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE.
13. All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14. For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
15. And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
17. By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
18. it was he to whom it was said, "IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED."
19. He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
20. By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even regarding things to come.
21. By faith Jacob, as he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.
22. By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the exodus of the sons of Israel, and gave orders concerning his bones.
23. By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.
24. By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
25. choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,
26. considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
27. By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured, as seeing Him who is unseen.
28. By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them.
29. By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned.
30. By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
31. By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.
32. And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets,
33. who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
34. quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
35. Women received back their dead by resurrection; and others were tortured, not accepting their release, so that they might obtain a better resurrection;
36. and others experienced mockings and scourgings, yes, also chains and imprisonment.
37. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were tempted, they were put to death with the sword; they went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated
38. (men of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes in the ground.
39. And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40. because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

 

[Craigbythesea]

DHK says,

When one is saved (by faith and faith alone) he has the Spirit.

But the Bible says,

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Which one should you believe—DHK or the Holy Bible? It is your choice!

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:

The view that you are expressing here could not be more incorrect. The conflict that Paul describes in Rom. 7 is NOT the war of the flesh fighting against the spirit. The conflict that Paul describes in Romans 7 is that of a Jew who wishes to obey the Law but who does not find in the Law the power to obey it. There is NO mention of the Holy Spirit because the Jew in Roman 7 does not have the Holy Spirit to help him in the war.

[/QUOTE]

I've dealt with many Galatians who state the same thing concerning Rom.7.

Paul is speaking about the INWARD MAN (the Holy Spirit reference of regeneration) being in a believer. ONLY THE INWARD MAN struggles against the FLESH. (Gal.5) There is no struggle in ANY MAN who doesn't have the Holy Spirit. THEY ARE DEAD IN SIN. (Rom.8)

Paul is DESCRIBING himself, not a Jew without the Spirit STRUGGLING. There is NO DELIGHT in the law of God UNLESS you have the Holy Spirit.

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> When one is saved (by faith and faith alone) he has the Spirit. DHK

This is precisely the opposite of what the Bible says. Saving faith is NEVER alone. Indeed, no true faith is ever alone.

</font>[/QUOTE]ONLY FAITH gives the Spirit.

Eph.1:13, Rom.1:16,3:21-26, 8:2, Gal.3:2

It is without (ALONE) works of righteousness.
Titus 3:5

 

[carlaimpinge]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
DHK says,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> When one is saved (by faith and faith alone) he has the Spirit.

But the Bible says,

James 2:14. What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15. If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16. and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17. Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
18. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
19. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
20. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22. You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23. and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.
24. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25. In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?
26. For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Which one should you believe—DHK or the Holy Bible? It is your choice!

</font>[/QUOTE]Note that James says NOTHING about the Holy Spirit being given through works.

James emphasized OT justification, which occurred subsequent to belief. (He emphasized Abraham's OFFERING of Issac in Gen.22.)

A NT Christian's justification is IMMEDIATE, unlike OT saints. Paul emphasized Abraham's BELIEF, which attained righteousness, and the inheritance by promise, which is LIKE your SALVATION.