Conditional Security Book

[Martin]

Salvation cannot be lost, but it can be forfeited by deciding to stop trusting Jesus as savior. The OSAS types keep talking about "lose you salvation" as though it could be something you don't know is happening or has happened. I suppose it is easier to debate against losing your salvation than against deciding to stop trusting Jesus.

==If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the only way a person could "lose their salvation" (forgive the use of a phrase you disagree with) is by making a decision to stop trusting in Jesus. Am I correct?

Reference John 6:37-40 you said:
See John 6:37. The context is that Jesus will not "drive them away". If we continue to trust Jesus as saviour, Jesus will accept us and we certainly do have an eternal inheritance.

=There is more to the passage than simply not being driven away. First those who come to Jesus do so ONLY (Jn 6:44) because the Father has given them to the Son (Jn 6:37). These are those who believe and recieve eternal life from the Son (Jn 17:2). Those the Father has given to Jesus, will come to Jesus, and Jesus will not drive them away (Jn 6:37). Next Jesus says what His purpose is, to do the will of the Father (Jn 6:38, 5:30, 8:29). What is the will of the Father in this case? That "of all that" the Father gave Him He "lose nothing" but "raise it up on the last day" (Jn 6:39). Verse 40 continues the same thought, that those who come to the Son will be raised up by the Son on the last day. What does all of that have to do with eternal security? Not only will Jesus, the Son, not drive away any who come to Him (because they are given Him by the Father), He will also not lose one of those the Father has given Him (those who come to Him). Now since Jesus will not drive someone away from Him, and since Jesus will not lose those the Father has given Him, I don't see how anyone can believe a Christian can become a non-Christian.

Now, in that thread you also stated...

"The issue is how did the soveriegn God choose to provide salvation to mankind in terms of grace and freewill."

I was not aware that Scripture taught that God considered human free-will (if there is such a thing) in His decisions (on election, etc). The Bible says He chose us "before the foundation of the world" (Eph 1:4) and predestined us "to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the priase of the glory of His grace" (Eph 1:5-6). In fact in Romans 9 when Paul is discussing the issue of election (etc) he uses Jacob and Essau as examples. God chose Jacob based on nothing he (Jacob) had done. For Paul says, "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls" (Rom 9:11). In fact in Romans 8:29 we are told that God "foreknew" us (knew the saved beforehand) and we are told that believers are "predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son" (Rom 8:29). It is only after all of this that we are called, justified, and glorified (Rom 8:30). Point? Our election is based on God's plan and purposes and not human free-will (which is really "will in bondage" and not free).

So I just don't see a Scriptural argument for human free-will being in play here. Those the Father gives to the Son, will come to the Son, will recieve eternal life, and will be raised up on the last day (Jn 6:37-40). I see that those who are the sheep will follow the Shepherd (Jesus) and He will give them eternal life and they will never perish (Jn 10:26-30). That is what will happen. Those God has not chosen will continue on in their life as lost people (enemies of God) and will be condemned to hell (Rev 20:11-15). They are not predestined to hell (I don't believe in double-predestination). No they are just not elect, thus they will not come to Jesus. Only the elect will come to Jesus and recieve eternal life (Jn 6:37,44, 17:2).

 

[untangled]

Heaven

I don't understand. If someone loses their salvation where else is there for them to go but Hell? Certainly not Heaven.

Straight,

I was just saying I believed the security teachers not to be going to Hell even when I did not believe what I do now. You either go to HEaven or Hell. Just a misunderstanding of the way I worded it

 

[westex93]

Excuse me for butting in here. I'm a first time poster, but this is a subject dear to my heart, so I'd like to respond.

I was raised in a home where OSAS was laughed at. I just accepted that for years until God moved me to search the scriptures myself on the subject. The result truly changed my life like nothing else has aside from salvation itself. In fact, I am convinced that this is one of the most critical doctrines to be found within scripture. Almost everything else hinges on this concept - the sovreignty of God, the power of the Holy Spirit, the measure of His love. Trust me, there is nothing conditional about God's love for His children! As you study this, you will begin to see that any other doctrine is reduced to a basic form of works-based salvation. I'm sure we all agree that we can't be saved by our works, so what makes us think we can be kept by our works? It's not even a matter of our belief that holds us. At some point in our Christian lives, if we'll be truly honest, I believe most us have struggled with some unbelief.

To that I reference II Timothy 2:13 "If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself"

See, it's not even our belief that holds us! Just as the Father looks at us and sees Christ, not our sins, He sees the Holy Sprit who "cannot deny himself"!

As believers, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, right? It is that same Holy Spirit that sealed us, according to Ephesians:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Now look at this wonderful verse:

John 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.

The beautiful word picture given in scripture is that of the believer being placed in the Father's hand, covered with Jesus (picture the other hand cupping on top of the first), and sealed all around by the Holy Spirit! Not only can those hands be pried apart by outside forces, you can't jump out of them either! To imply that we could would mean that our power was greater than God's!

So it should become obvious with these (along with numerous other passages!) that, not only can we not save ourselves - we can't keep ourselves, either! It is only by Grace, only by the sealing of the Holy Spirit. Even when we struggle with our disbelief, "If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself". Here, reference Mark 9:24 "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."

Finally :

Rom 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hallelujah! 'Nuff said...!

I will address the questions about Matthew 25 in another post. I don't want this one to get so long as to bog the reader down and get passed over.

In Christ,
Wes

 

[westex93]

Matt 25

I will attempt to look at this passage as honestly as I can:

Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, [Thou] wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and [then] at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give [it] unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This, like many of the passages used to debate the security of the believer, does not speak of salvation at all, but of our rewards given at the Judgment Seat of Christ. We all agree on the Judment Seat of Christ as described in I Corinthians 3, right? These rewards are wholly apart from our salvation. They are based on our works after salvation. But as verse 15 says " If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Our salvation is not dependent on works and can't be kept by our works. Our rewards, however, will be given to someone else.


But what about verse 30 " And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."? Understand here the meaning of darkness:

skotos
1) darkness
a) of night darkness
b) of darkened eyesight or blindness
2) metaph.
a) of ignorance respecting divine things and human duties, and the accompanying ungodliness and immorality, together with their consequent misery in hell
b) persons in whom darkness becomes visible and holds sway

This word is never used of Hell. Jesus, who spoke more about Hell than anyone else in Scripture and gave this parable itself, used the words "sheol" or "gehenna" for Hell. He obviously meant something different here. But what is darkness? It is always an absence of light or separation from God. This can correspond to discipline from God toward His children. The Bible tells me “If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me” (Ps 66:18) This is that Biblical separation from God that comes about because of our own sin. Note that there are instances where the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" is used to describe the experience in hell. (Matt 13:42 and 50 both speak of this). But the term itself is not synonymous with hell.


Note another instance in scripture, regarding the centurion's faith:

Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

I believe the intent of the scriptures regarding the "children of the kingdom" is in refernce to Israel. This statement came right after Jesus remarks of the Roman centurion's faith: "I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.". This, I am convinced, speaks of the same separation from God that the nation of Israel has experienced for the last two thousand years. A very short study of the nation's history would show just how true this is. The more in depth you study, the more you will be amazed at what Israel has gone through. "Weeping as gnashing of teeth" doesn't begin to cover it! Yet we know, just as God wil "never leave nor forsake" His children, He will also restore Israel.

Please feel free to ask on any other passage in scripture and I will be glad to answer. Above all, pray. Fact is, I can't convince you and neither can anyone else. Only the Holy Spirit can. I had talked to men to try and understand this doctrine, but none could convince me. They only left me with more questions. So I understand very much where you are at! With me it came down to a day when I was in the house by myself and troubled with this very subject. I sat down with my Bible and prayed "God, I've got to have an answer on this. It's tearing me apart! I won't give up, I won't get up from here until I understand. Please help me settle this!" And in one of the clearest, most amazing times of my life, I went right to the troubling Hebrews 6 passage and the scales fell off as the Holy Spirit taught me what the passage said! And immediately after, everywhere I looked in scripture, security was all I saw. It is literally woven everywhere throughout scripture!

So, again, please let me know where I can help on this.

In Christ,
Wes

 

[drfuss]

Martin, you did not address the post in the other thread that I was referring to. The context of the thread included many different OSAS explanations of Marr. 6:15 which basically said the scripture doesn't really mean what it says. These explanations went to great effort not to conflict with OSAS.

On the other hand, I had no trouble applying Matt. 5:15, it simply means what it says.

Here is the post I was previously referring to:

IMHO, there have been a number of OSAS driven explanations that say Matt 6: 15 does not mean what it says. These explanations include : loss of blessing, saved but held accountable, saved when we confess our unforgiveness?, Jesus paid once for all our sins regardless of Matt.6:15, etc.

Having commented on these OSAS explanations, it is fair to ask how do I reconcile conditional eternal security with the scriptures that support OSAS. I make the following assumptions.

The scriptures were written to believers during a period of persecution. The OSAS supporting scriptures were given to encourage believers to continue trusting Jesus as savior and to ensure them that:
1. God would keep them through the persecution.
2. Nothing exterior to themselves could separate them for God.
3. God foreknew what they would have to go through and would give them required strength.
4. Their salvation was secure if they continued to trust Jesus as savior.
5. Etc.

Granted, the above is a big assumption. However, I choose to make that assumption rather that to believe that scriptures that conflict with OSAS does not mean what they say. There is a choice to be made on this issue. Making the above assumption is much easier for me than to believe a scripture does not mean what it says because it conflicts with OSAS.

Hopefully, the OSAS believers will get a better understanding of why other believers cannot accept OSAS.

As I said in a previous post, both positions believe a person must trust Jesus as savior when they die to get to heaven. From a practical point of view, the different is a “play on words”.

Peace.

drfuss

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Good Morning!

Westex93,

I am going to discuss with you.

First, I want to reply to you start with 2 Timothy 2:13. Verse 13 says, "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

First, I ask you, whose is "If WE believe not" speak of? Us any individual. Second, I ask you who is "yet HE abideth faithful"? 'He' is Jesus Christ. Notice word, 'yet' is speak of execept as 'but', only one person is Jesus Christ is always abiding and faithful. Third, I ask you, who is "HE cannot deny HIMSELF."? 'He' & 'himself' both are speak of Jesus Christ. This verse 13 doesn't prove us of security. This verse telling us, we all are humans and easy to fail. Only ONE person never fail is Jesus Christ. Understand.

PLease look above verse - 2 Tim. 2:12 says, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: IF we deny him, he also will DENY US."

This verse is NOT talk about millennial, because Paul doesn't saying 'a thousand years'. Paul tells us, IF we suffer, then we shall reign with him. It speaks of follow Jesus Christ same as what Christ suffered for us - 1 Peter 2:21; & 4:16. That mean, IF we follow Christ all the way to end, then we shall be reign with Christ which mean shall have eternal life with Christ. According to Matt. 10:22; & 24:13 both telling us we must be endure all the way to end(at our death or Christ comes), THEN shall be saved.

Paul warns us, IF we deny Christ, then He shall DENY us, that means if we refuse follow Christ, then He shall disown us, shows that he can removed us away just like John 15:6 & Romans 11:17-23. He could removed us away from his place, if we do not endure for Christ.

You mentioned of the Holy Spirit 'sealed' in us. I know many security teachers use Eph. 1:13 & Eph. 4:30 to prove us that we cannot lose our salvation, because the Holy Spirit already 'sealed' in us, always remain seal in us till rapture.

I would like to show you of Eph. 1:14 says, "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Notice word, 'purchased possession'. It pitcures means, Holy Spirit pay down payment to hold it.

To my understanding, that the Holy Spirit sealed in us, it represent or type that He is being engaged with us, same with Jesus Christ is engaged with the church. Jesus Christ is not yet marry to the Church TILL Revelation chapter 19 AT THE SECOND ADVENT.

Christ could divorced us anytime, if he wants to.

Where verse?

In Jeremiah 3:8 says, "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel commited adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

When the Lord saw Israel sinned against Him, he put them away, just like he already did actual cut them off comparing same Romans 11:19-23.

I want to discuss about 'Church'. Church is not religion, not a building, it means God's people. Does that mean whole people are already automatical already belong to Christ's church at the salvation at once? No. The Church is for any INDIVIDUAL either Jew or Gentile who believing, trusting, and FOLLOWING Jesus Christ.

'Tree' of Romans 11:17-23 which is speak of Jesus Christ as vine of John 15:1. Also, Jesus Christ IS the church.

If we do not endure and not follow Christ, then we might be removed from the church.

Understanding, Jesus Christ is not finish with the church yet. Christ is still builting church (Matt. 16:18) right now. He will be finish with the Church AT THE SECOND ADVENT (Revelation chapter 19- 'marriage of the lamb').

Rev. 2:5 is a serious warning. Christ says, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; OR else I will come unto thee quickly, and will REMOVE thy candlestick OUT OF HIS PLACE except thou repent." Christ warns us, IF we turning away and sinning, He would REMOVE us away from HIS PLACE.

You mentioned of John 10:29. I love John 10:29 is a BEAUTIFUL promise verse!! But you take this verse out of the whole context what Christ actual talking about.

Christ says, "My sheep HEAR my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." - John 10:27-29.

Verse 27 is the most important key of the passage. Christ promises us, IF any person HEAR his words, and TO FOLLOW CHRIST shall never be remove away from his hand forever and ever.

OR... what IF any person stopped following Christ, He might loosed out out of his hand.

Same with the example of the lost son of Luke 15:11-32. Father does not force his son to staying with him all the time. Father ALLOWS his son go, because a son have his own freewill decision what he wants to. Then, a son is lost according to Luke 15:24 & 32. Unless if a son repents and turn back to his father again, then he is alive AGAIN.

You mentioned of Romans 8:38-39. It is a beautiful promise passage. This passage is not discuss about salvation. This is talking about nothing can separated us from God's LOVE. Simple and plain.

Now, let's discuss on Matthew 25:14-30.

You say,

This, like many of the passages used to debate the security of the believer, does NOT speak of salvation at all, but of our rewards given at the Judgement Seat of Christ

Oh really?

You continued:

This word(verse 30) is never used of Hell.

Oh really?

You continued:

Note that there are instances where the "wailing and gnashing of teeth" is used to describe the experince of hell. (Matt 13:42 and 50 both speak of this) But the term itself is not synonymous with hell.

Let's focus on Matt. 13:42 first. Let's start with the context. Matt. 13:37-43; 49-50(you can read verse 44-48 if you want to): "He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man. The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore are gathered and BURNED IN THE FIRE; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity: And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: THERE SHALL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear let him HEAR(Rev. 2:11,17,29; 3:6,13, 22; **13:9**follows verse 10-18 warn about do not receive the mark or worship the beast) So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just. AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO THE FURNACE OF FIRE: SHALL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH."

Use our common sense, 'wailing and gnashing of teeth' are describe of show much great painful with emotion include physically. 'Wailing and gnashing of teeth' is a good example of a rich man is now tormenting in the hell of Luke 16:19-31.

One more verse - Matt. 7:23 says, "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." It is same with Matt. 13:41-42. Christ shall tell them, that they shall depart from him, because of their iniquity, cast them into the lake of fire.

You mentioned of Matthew 8:10-12.

You say,

"Children of the kingdom" is in refernece to Israel

Not always. "Children of the kingdom" apply to 'Jews only' is not in Christ's mind. He means that any individual either Jew or Gentile. He could removed his people away and cast into the fire same with Romans 11:17-23.

Matt. 8:11-12 speak of the second advent, that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob shall sit with Christ's people on the new earth shall be reigning with Christ forever and ever. But, God's people shall be cut off and cast into fire, miss God's kingdom, which is clearly speak of everlasting punishment in the lake of fire. Because of their unbelief, stopped follow Christ.

You saying Matt. 25:30 is not hell. Then please explain to me, what is "outer darkness"???

I ask you a question of verse 30, which one is speak of temporarily or eternality?

No excuse for you to read Matthew 25:30. I know why, because you having hard to accept with the deal what Christ actual saying of Matt. 25:30. Because Matt. 25:30 is the strongest blunt or speak out against security salvation doctrine.

Myself notice many baptist pastors skip or avoid Matt. 25:30, because they KNOW this verse is very clear speak of hell/lake of fire. That why they refuse to teaching or preach on this verse to the congregation.

You HAVE TO ACCEPT what Christ actual saying of Matt. 25:14-30. Why cannot you follow His words?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Martin,

Sorry, forgive me for not reply back to your question on John 6:37-40. I have no problem with this passage.

Let's read what Christ says:

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Notice important part of verse 37, Christ said, "shall come to me; and him that COMETH TO ME..." Christ was talking about anyone who is come to Christ. Obivously, that is person's decision and choice. 'Cometh' means continue coming same mean as to follow Christ. Christ promises us, when while a person is continue coming(following) Christ, He shall never cast person away. Also, Christ promsies, His Father given all(whosever believeth in Christ) to Christ shall not lose them all, but shall raise them all at the last day(at second advent).

We have to understand that Christ never fail us. Christ is the deity of God. Christ have power to hold us (John 10:27-29), no one shall take us away from His hand. LONG as we follow Him all the time, we are still in His hand all the time.

John 6:39 is rfer with John 17:12, Christ said, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lose, BUT THE SON OF PERDITION; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Christ said to his disciples, that He lose nothing, but except one person, who? Judas the Iscariot. He left Christ, and he was called, 'the son of perdition', and turned against Christ by send soldiers to arrest Him, and to crucified Him. Obivously, Judas the Iscariot is now in hell.

Christ promises to us, when we are following Christ at the same time, He always hold us in his hand all the time tillw e die or Lord comes. OR... what if a person stopped followed Christ, then Christ might loosed a perosn out of his hand. Do not blame on Christ, blame on perosn's decision for rebel against Christ, and become lost just same as Luke 15:11-32 saying so.

John 6:37-39 doesn't prove of UNconditional salvation, because Christ says, if any COMETH TO HIM so, He will in NO WISE CAST OUT. Obivously, He tells us, our responsible is COME TO CHRIST base on our faith, trusting, believing, and FOLLOWING Him. Understand?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Martin]

Seeing Conditions Where None Exists

Notice important part of verse 37, Christ said, "shall come to me; and him that COMETH TO ME..." Christ was talking about anyone who is come to Christ. Obivously, that is person's decision and choice. 'Cometh' means continue coming same mean as to follow Christ.

==I am not sure that the tense argument here is that strong. However I will set that aside for the moment and deal with what I believe to be a larger problem in your argumentation. You said, "obivously, that is person's decision and choice". I can't agree at all. Jesus made it clear that "all that the Father gives Me will come to Me". Why do people come to Jesus? Because the Father has given them to Jesus. It is God's choice, not man's! Man's will follows God's will in this. Those God has elected will come to Christ in faith. Notice the order again...all that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus.

Christ promises us, when while a person is continue coming(following) Christ, He shall never cast person away.

==That is not what the verse says, however. Jesus is talking about doing the Father's will. Eternal security is a result of the Son doing the Father's will, we just benefit from that (so to speak). The Father has given us to Jesus (vs37, Jn 17:2), then we come to Jesus (Jn 6:37). Christ will not cast out those the Father has given Him (that is why He will not cast out) and because He will not lose one of those the Father has given Him (Jn 6:39). John 10:27 (and other verses) make clear that the evidence of true salvation is that a person walks with Christ (follows Christ). Christ said He will not lose one of those the Father has given Him (Jn 6:39).

We have to understand that Christ never fail us.

==Of course this is NOT about Christ failing us. This is about Christ failing the Father! If Jesus loses ONE of those the Father has given Him then He has failed to do the Father's will (Jn 6:38). That is one reason why I believe in the security of the believer. Christ will NEVER fail to do the will of the Father. The Father has given us to Jesus, thus we come to Jesus, and Jesus gives us eternal life. From that point on He promises He will not lose us because the Father has given us to Him (Jn 6:39).

Christ is the deity of God. Christ have power to hold us (John 10:27-29), no one shall take us away from His hand. LONG as we follow Him all the time, we are still in His hand all the time.

==Of course such a condition does not exist in John 10:27. If we examine the verse, and it's context, we learn several things.

1. Those who are not Christ's sheep do not come to Him (Jn 10:26).
2. Those who are Christ's sheep listen to Him (Jn 10:27).
3. Those who are His sheep follow Him (Jn 10:27).
4. He knows His sheep (Jn 10:27).
5. He gives eternal life to His sheep (Jn 10:28).
6. His sheep never perish (Jn 6:39, 10:28).

Verse 27 makes no condition, it is a statement of fact. Christ's sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Want proof? Well just read the whole verse. Secondly you can look at Jesus' own example in John 10:1-10. Why do the sheep follow their shepherd? Because they "know His voice" (vs4). They will not follow a stranger because they don't know his voice (vs5). They only follow their shepherd. Why do sheep follow their shepherd? Because they are His sheep. Why do Christ's sheep follow Him? Because we are His sheep. There is no condition in verse 27.

John 6:39 is rfer with John 17:12, Christ said, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lose, BUT THE SON OF PERDITION; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Christ said to his disciples, that He lose nothing, but except one person, who? Judas the Iscariot..

==This gets us to the question of whether Judas was saved or not and, as Robert Shank pointed out, there are healthy arguments on both sides. However in John 17:12 it is important to realize that Judas is said to be a "son of hell", one who was predestined to fill his role. I don't believe Judas was saved since I don't believe a saved person can be a son of hell (Jn 17:12), unclean (Jn 12:6, 13:10-11, 18), and a devil (Jn 6:70-71). Since Judas was not a true believer, but only held his role as a fulfillment of prophecy, John 6:39 does not apply to him.

Keep Matthew 7:21-23 in mind.

and become lost just same as Luke 15:11-32 saying so.

==The point of the parable is salvation, not security (Lk 15:7,10,32).

Obivously, He tells us, our responsible is COME TO CHRIST base on our faith, trusting, believing, and FOLLOWING Him. Understand?

==We come to Christ because the Father has given us to Him (Jn 6:37a). This is not something we can earn, it is God's choice that results in our action of faith (Eph 2:8-9, Rom 4:4-5, Rom 9:11, etc).

 

[Martin]

I'm Not Sure I See A Problem

As for Matthew 6:15.

I am really not sure what the problem with this verse is (in connection to eternal security). If a person wants God's forgiveness they must be willing to forgive others, if they are not then they don't need to ask for God's forgiveness. I believe that true believers have a new heart, that we have been born again. We love the brethren, we do not hold grudges against them (1Jn 3:14). If a person hates and refuses to forgive, I would understand that person not to be born again (1Jn 3:10).

I think this verse is only a problem when people water down the results of the new birth.

 

[drfuss]

As for Matthew 6:15.

I am really not sure what the problem with this verse is (in connection to eternal security). If a person wants God's forgiveness they must be willing to forgive others, if they are not then they don't need to ask for God's forgiveness. I believe that true believers have a new heart, that we have been born again. We love the brethren, we do not hold grudges against them (1Jn 3:14). If a person hates and refuses to forgive, I would understand that person not to be born again (1Jn 3:10).

I think this verse is only a problem when people water down the results of the new birth.

The above was one of the OSAS driven explanations on the other thread.

Martin, I noticed that you again ignored my assumption in my post #25 on how I deal with the scriptures used to support OSAS. With that assumption, I don't have to be inovative in developing explanations,

 

[Martin]

Sorry.

I noticed that you again ignored my assumption in my post #25 on how I deal with the scriptures used to support OSAS. With that assumption, I don't have to be inovative in developing explanations,

==I have ignored nothing. I thought Matthew 6:15 was what you wanted me to reply to. If you want me to respond to something copy and paste it here so I can be sure to get the right point. If I have to go back and forth I am probably never going to get it right...

 

[drfuss]

From drfuss previous post:
Martin, I noticed that you again ignored my assumption in my post #25 on how I deal with the scriptures used to support OSAS. With that assumption, I don't have to be inovative in developing explanations.

==I have ignored nothing. I thought Matthew 6:15 was what you wanted me to reply to. If you want me to respond to something copy and paste it here so I can be sure to get the right point. If I have to go back and forth I am probably never going to get it right...

I was referring to my post 25 of this thread.

 

[westex93]

DeafPosttrib:

I’ll be glad to address these questions. I love good, healthy, Christian debate among believers. At least, as long as it is good, healthy, Christian debate. I feel that – right off the bat – I should address this. Quite honestly, I have been spending some time looking around the board the last few days and this is not always the case. Usually not, in fact. This made me hesitant to post to this board at all. In a Christ-centered debate, “iron sharpeneth iron”. Once the flesh gets into it and it turns into an argument, God ain’t within a million miles of it. That’s when I’m out. And it’s not a matter of “thick skin”, I was just a rough talkin’, rough livin’ ol’ contruction worker when God got ahold of me. Come to insults? Shoot, I can throw ‘em with the best? Argue? Hee, hee…I can argue with an oak tree till the tree finally gives up, loses its leaves, rots at the stump and falls over. Then I’ll go home, sleep like a baby and be fine in the morning!

At least, when I’m walking in the flesh. When I’m exalting self. When I want folks to see I’m right. Walking in the spirit, I’ll stay as far away as I can from stuff like that. When it gets to be a silly argument, I’m out, y’all. Better things to do.

You know, like go tell somebody about Jesus or somethin’…

Now, having said that, I’m not so foolish as to think I could sway you or anyone else on this board with some persuausive argument that I could craftily put together. Again, only the Holy Spirit can do that. For me it is all about iron sharpening iron as long as it’s done in a Godly manner.

Forgive me, DeafPosttrib, I would never want someone to believe I would take anything out of context. The very thought of it rattles my cage a little! Please know any verse left out was unintentional and we will deal with every one now. I have no agenda, I just want for myself a clearer understanding of God’s Word and pray everyone else here does, too. I was just trying to keep my post from being five pages long and posted only what I felt to be the more pertinent stuff.

First, instead of picking apart scriptures to refute, let me lay the groundwork for why I am convinced security of the believer is at the core of the bible. Then I will follow with a response on each questionable verse – probably in subsequent posts. It is absolutely true that many so-called Christians may hold on to a false security. No doubt the church is full of those who have put their faith in a church roll, baptismal certificate or their own works to get to Heaven. These folks are lost in every sense. See, the biggest problem the church has is not Once Saved, Always Saved, it’s the Once Saved part! Too many people had a experience they equate with salvation – they said some prayer, maybe even shed some tears, got baptised and joined a church because that’s what someone told them they had to do to be saved. But there was no repentence, no Lordship in their life, no change in their life as evidence of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That’s why it’s easy to look at “church folks” who have no relationship with Jesus Christ and use them as our measuring stick. But the Bible makes it clear that the true believer will endure to the end.

As far as the rest:
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Scripture makes it very clear here that those who “fall away” were never “of us”. Note, we’re talking about an apostasy type falling away, not a backslidden condition which we’re all guilty of. Difference between them is a lost person falling away from the things of God (which they “tried on for size”, but stopped short of complete faith in Jesus Christ) can walk away with no remorse, no conviction on their lives. See, that’s what happens if we try to come to Christ on our terms and hold on by our strength. God makes it abundantly clear that He will always chastise His backslidden own to bring them to repentence. I praise God that I don’t hold Him, but He holds me! It’s kinda like this:

Who among you will walk across a busy street with your little one, stick your finger out and say “OK, Junior, whatever you do, don’t let go.” No! None of us would do that! Why? Because we know they would let go! Rather, we hold on to them. Even when they try to pull away (they will and so would we if we could), you will hold them tight.

As the Ephesians passages make clear, we are “sealed” by the Holy Spirit. In a sense here, God made a covenant with Himself regarding our salvation. We know that the king’s seal in that day could only be broken by two people – the king who sealed it and the recipient. Well, God sealed it with the Holy Spirit and “mailed it” to Jesus! It never passes through our hands! And God said He would not drop us, that He would “never leave nor forsake us”. Hebrews 12:2 says He is “the author and finisher of our faith”. We didn’t start it and we can’t finish it!

What kind of weak salvation would it be if we – carnal, fleshly beings in which is no good – could lose it? Would the Father send the Son to a cruel old rugged cross to suffer and die for a salvation that is based on us? No!

Wow, this is gonna be a book just on this one post if I don’t stop. I’ll try deal with each passage individually, and try to keep it as short as possible.

Let me finish with this:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Amen!

 

[westex93]

Let me start with the discussion of II Timothy 2:11-13:

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

This is not likely to be a verse we can find any common ground on. And, admittedly, it's not the easiest to understand. I mean, on the surface, it almost looks like a contradiction in terms, right? But we know that's not true! Any contradiction can only be in our understanding. Regardless, this is far from the strongest or only passage in scripture regarding security, so I won't argue this one much. Anyway, my belief is not based on a passage or two, but by the whole Word of God.

I have already made my statement of belief on the latter verse. And I have no problem with verse 12. If we deny Him (arneomai, meaning "to contradict, i.e. disavow, reject, abnegate:--deny, refuse"), surely He will deny us! If we refuse the grace offered to us, He will deny us.

Matthew 10:32-33 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Now, to throw another kink in this, what about Peter? You would think that if anyone ever fit this description, it would be Peter who boldly denied that he knew Jesus! I won't begin to try and tell you I understand how these two verses work together, I just trust that they do. And that is reassurance for me - that if Peter didn't lose his salvation over that, praise God I'm not going to, either!

(BTW, seriously, I would like your take on Peter!)

 

[westex93]

You asked about:

Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

You related the “earnest” with a down payment, stating that Christ is only engaged to the church, not yet married. A couple of faults with this thinking. First, realize that engagement in that time was nothing like it is now. Engagement was a contract as binding as marriage itself and one that could only be broken by divorce.

The word “earnest” (arrhabon) could also be translated “guarantee”. It is used two other places in Scripture, both relating to the sealing of the Holy Spirit:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ (BTW, who stablisheth us? Not ourselves...), and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

The word literally, as you suggested, means “a pledge, i.e. part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the rest:--earnest.”

Naturally, I like the fact that security is used in the definition, hee, hee…

But, now, what is the purpose of the earnest? Remember, God did not strike a bargain with believers here. The perfect sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was to satisfy God's own requirement of judgment for sin. God paid Himself! The earnest of the Holy Spirit in our hearts is for our benefit alone, not His! He's already got His payment. Remember, God looks upon Eternity as a completed thing. "It is finished!", Jesus said, because there was no more to be done. He died "once for all"! He's not sitting on the throne wringing His hands hoping I'm going to make it! He knows whether I make it is not based on me, but Him! The only thing my faithfulness affects is how many crowns I get to lay at His feet. And - call me greedy - but I want a bunch.

Relating to Jeremiah 3:8
“And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.”

True, that is exactly what it says. No doubt, there.

But as Romans 11 states “God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew”. What He said He will do regarding Israel, He will do! The same chapter also speaks of the grafting, and that Israel will be grafted in again, stating “And so all Israel shall be saved”. So this divorce is not a permanent putting away, but only temporary.

For chastisement.

God will always chasten His own to bring them to repentence. All the vine and branches analogies speak of chastening, not eternal damnation. Destruction? Possibly, as He speaks of casting the unfruitful branches into the fire. For the love of God for His people is one that will chasten. The degree of our chastening will be dependent on just how hard-headed we want to be. Even to our own physical death:

1 Corinthians 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Note the “destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved”.

And:
1 Corinthians 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (This is the purpose for chastisement. We are chastened that we would not be condemned.)

I am convinced that God’s security is such that – if there were a way to lose your salvation – He would literally kill you to preserve your soul. That’s the sovreign God I serve. I’m not in control, He is!

 

[westex93]

OK, 'bout all I can handle tonight. I'll try to get back with you tomorrow. If I don't, it ain't 'cause I'm ignoring you, OK? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Martin]

Is This It?

there have been a number of OSAS driven explanations that say Matt 6: 15 does not mean what it says.

==Just as there have been a number of conditional security explanations of John 6 and 10 that say those vereses do not mean what they say? I think both sides have plenty of guilt on this point.

The scriptures were written to believers during a period of persecution. The OSAS supporting scriptures were given to encourage believers to continue trusting Jesus as savior and to ensure them that

==Let's deal with the Scriptures individually instead of trying to force some generic, over all meaning to them. I get nervous when people start this generalizing of Scriptures. Each Scripture has a context, a meaning, and we must carefully examine each.

1. God would keep them through the persecution.

==Of course neither John 6:37-39 or John 10:26-30 mention anything about being kept "through the persecution".

2. Nothing exterior to themselves could separate them for God.

==My Bible says my God will not lose one Christian (John 6:39). I have gone into detail on this verse in this thread.

3. God foreknew what they would have to go through and would give them required strength.

==I hope this is not an attempt to deal with Romans 8:29-30.

4. Their salvation was secure if they continued to trust Jesus as savior.

==My Bible says that salvation is secure because Christ will not lose one nor will He allow one of His to perish since the Father gave them to Him (Jn 6:37-39, 10:27-30). My Bible says that believers are secure because Jesus is the author and perfector of our faith (Heb 12:2, 1Thess 5:23-24, etc). My Bible says salvation is secure since God foreknew believers, predestined believers to be like Christ, and justified all believers (Rom 8:29-30). Friend if God predestines you to be like Christ, you will be like Christ. God makes no mistakes.

Granted, the above is a big assumption. However, I choose to make that assumption rather that to believe that scriptures that conflict with OSAS does not mean what they say.

==Your right, your assumptions are way too big for me to be comfortable with. In fact what you say here is a major assumption. Btw, I could turn your assumption here around on you (ie..I choose to make that assumption rather that to believe that scriptures that conflict with conditional security do not mean what they say).

Your arguments seem to be based on the assumption of conditional security. Thus you will always come to the same conclusion (ie..conditional security).

There is a choice to be made on this issue. Making the above assumption is much easier for me than to believe a scripture does not mean what it says because it conflicts with OSAS.

==That is a false choice (and again it can be turned around on you). I would advise you to get into the meat of Scripture on this issue rather than making large assumptions that lead you to the conclusion you have already determined.

 

[drfuss]

Martin writes:
"==That is a false choice (and again it can be turned around on you). I would advise you to get into the meat of Scripture on this issue rather than making large assumptions that lead you to the conclusion you have already determined."

Thank you for your comments on conditional eternal security.

I find it interesting that some OSAS believers seem to have no problem saying some scriptures don't mean what they say when these scriptures specifically conflict with OSAS. But this has been going on for so long that apparently it has been accepted. With my conditional eternal security assumption, I have found no conflicting scriptures.

I didn't expect to convince any OSAS believers to change to conditional eternal security. But many OSAS believers have indicated thay cannot understand why other believers do not accept OSAS. My intention here is to explain why we do not accept OSAS, and not to get into a debate where each side throws a bunch of scriptures at each other as has been done previously on this BB in other threads.

Hopefully, the OSAS believers have gotton a better understanding of why other believers cannot accept OSAS. If so, I have been successful; If not, I at least tried.

As I said in a previous post, both positions believe a person must be trusting Jesus as savior when they die to get to heaven; and both are eternally secure as they continue to trust Jesus as savior. From a practical perspective, the difference between OSAS and conditional eternal security is just a "play on words".

This has been an interesting discussion.

Peace,

drfuss

 

[Martin]

Too Much Eisegesis

I find it interesting that some OSAS believers seem to have no problem saying some scriptures don't mean what they say when these scriptures specifically conflict with OSAS. But this has been going on for so long that apparently it has been accepted. With my conditional eternal security assumption, I have found no conflicting scriptures.

==The problem, of course, is that those who believe in OSAS (as you call it) don't agree that they say that "some scriptures don't mean what they say". In fact they would say that you are the one who ignores the meaning of certain Scriptures and takes others out of context. So, like many of your other arguments in favor of your assumptions, this one can be turned right back around and used against your position.

I am truly amazed that you can't see that.

You said:
"With my conditional eternal security assumption, I have found no conflicting scriptures"

Of course you don't, if you did you would not hold your view.

I would also argue that it is dangerous to bring any assumption to the Scriptures. We should seek to avoid eisegesis (ie...reading our assumptions into the text) and we should not claim that our eisegesis causes us to find "no conflicting Scriptures".


You said:
"But many OSAS believers have indicated thay cannot understand why other believers do not accept OSAS. My intention here is to explain why we do not accept OSAS"

I am sorry, but if the reasons you have given are why some reject eternal security and accept conditional security than the conditional security position is in serious trouble. Your position is based on assumption, and on eisegesis.

You need deal with the Scriptures themselves.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I promise, I will make post to reply back to Martin and Westex93 tomorrow or Wed to continue discuss more that these verses. You know, we do not attack at God's Word. We just disagree each other, because we are all humans. The basic thing that we all believe in Jesus Christ, He died for our sins. I agree with Westex93, that we all must be truly repentance with our sins as it opposite against 'easy believism' method. I will discuss more on passages in the Bible talking about conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!