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Yes.You do realize that the audience the [sic] of your posts were not gentiles?
It does show that faith is a work of the Spirit upon the heart. You may call that what you will. I call it the New Birth without which no one can see or enter the kingdom of God.His quote does not support your placing regeneration before faith. It does not mention regeneration at all.
Thank you for clarifying that it's not supporting placing regeneration before faith. Solid Baptists don't:It does show that faith is a work of the Spirit upon the heart...I call it the New Birth
Solid baptists understand Spurgeon and what the quote means.Thank you for clarifying that it's not supporting placing regeneration before faith. Solid Baptists don't:
Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith":
"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"
Abraham Booth, "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners":
"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
As Iconoclast says, you are missing the point spectacularly.Thank you for clarifying that it's not supporting placing regeneration before faith. Solid Baptists don't:
Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith":
"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is already saved! It is unnecessary and ridiculous for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved, when he is saved already, being regenerate!"
Abraham Booth, "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners":
"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
As Iconoclast says, you are missing the point spectacularly.
The Gospel goes out to all; it is good news to all, but only some receive it. The reason is that, '...The natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Corinthians 2:14). But to others the Gospel 'is the power of God unto salvation' (Romans 1:16). When the Gospel comes with the regenerating power of God, then men and women respond to it and are saved. 'The Lord opened [Lydia's] heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul' She did not open her own heart; Paul's word did not open her heart; God the Holy Spirit opened her heart to respond to the Gospel.
This is what Spurgeon and Booth believed, and also Calvin and the others you quoted earlier, when you read their works properly and without cherry-picking extracts. As Spurgeon says, the warrant of faith is not the belief that one is regenerated, it is the conviction that one is a sinner and that Jesus Christ saves sinners; but that knowledge is revealed to the heart by the Holy Spirit.
As Iconoclast says, you are [falsehood snipped]
Neither of you have interacted with what they wrote. Abraham Booth is quite clear in rejecting bumping regeneration before faith:This is what Spurgeon and Booth believed, and also Calvin and the others you quoted earlier, when you read their works properly and without cherry-picking extracts.
Neither of you have interacted with what they wrote. Abraham Booth is quite clear in rejecting bumping regeneration before faith:
"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
You do know, don't you, that Booth was a five-point Calvinist? Booth in that extract is dealing with those who (like John Gill, John Brine and others) believed in 'Justification from Eternity.' I have not argued (and I don't think @Reformed has either) that one must be fully regenerate before one can believe. But it is absolutely clear from the Scriptures that I have previously quoted, that those who are dead in sin cannot somehow make themselves alive. There must be an initial work of God the Holy Spirit upon the heart. 'Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power' (Psalm 110:3). Here is A.W. Pink on the subject, and you may be assured that Booth, Spurgeon et al would be in agreement with him:Neither of you have interacted with what they wrote. Abraham Booth is quite clear in rejecting bumping regeneration before faith:
"the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ....To contend, indeed, that regeneration must be prior to faith, and to justification, is like maintaining, That the eldest son of a nobleman must partake of the human nature, before he can have that filial relation to his father, which constitutes him an heir to the paternal estate, and entitles him to those honours which are hereditary in the family. For the human nature, derived from his parents, and the relation of a son, being completely of the same date; there is no such thing as priority, or posteriority, respecting them, either as to the order of time, or the order of nature. They are inseparable; nor can the one exist without the other---Thus it is, I conceive, with regards to regeneration, faith in Christ, and justification before God. For, to consider any man as born of God, but not as a child of God; as a child of God, but not believing in Jesus Christ; as believing in Jesus Christ, but not as justified; or as justified, but not as an heir of immortal felicity; is, either to the last degree absurd, or manifestly contrary to apostolic doctrine."
I have noticed, that when trying to convince a Pelagian/Semi-pelagian/Arminian that he is wrong, even when the Bible clearly says so, it is complete waste of time! They are so entrenched in their theological clap-trap, that they will not see anything that does not agree with them! Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, who are very much self-deludedI have noticed, that when trying to convince a "Reformed/Calvinist" that they are wrong, even when the Bible clearly says so, it is complete waste of time! They are so entrenched in their theological clap-trap, that they will not see anything that does not agree with them! Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, who are very much self-deluded!
I have noticed, that when trying to convince a Pelagian/Semi-pelagian/Arminian that he is wrong, even when the Bible clearly says so, it is complete waste of time! They are so entrenched in their theological clap-trap, that they will not see anything that does not agree with them! Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, who are very much self-deluded
Of course you are! Just like me!I am none of the above, just a Bible-believing Christian with no "axes to grind"!
Brother,I have noticed, that when trying to convince a Pelagian/Semi-pelagian/Arminian that he is wrong, even when the Bible clearly says so, it is complete waste of time! They are so entrenched in their theological clap-trap, that they will not see anything that does not agree with them! Much like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, who are very much self-deluded
'The doctrine of sovereign, distinguishing grace, as commonly and justly stated by Calvinists, it must be acknowledged, is too generally exploded [i.e. 'denied']. This the writer of these pages knows by experience to his grief and shame. Through the ignorance of his mind, the pride of his heart, and the prejudice of his education, he, in his younger years, often opposed it with much warmth, though with no small weakness; but after an impartial inquiry, and many prayers, he found reason to alter his judgement; he found it to be the doctrine of the Bible, and a dictate of the unerring Spirit. Thus patronized, he received the once obnoxious sentiment, under a full conviction of it being a divine truth.'Abraham Booth is quite clear in rejecting bumping regeneration before faith:
Regardless of how you guys might like to put it, no sinner can ever be "regenerated" before they repent of their sins! The Reformed nonsense that the Holy Spirit first "regenerates" the sinner, and then "enables" them to call on the Lord for salvation, is not more than theological speculation! True, God did open the heart of Lydia, as He does for all those who are "seeking" Him. It is clear from the events of Acts 16, that this woman was one a "worshiper of God", as was Cornelius in chapter 10. The Bible says that if you seek the Lord with all your heart, you will "find" Him (Deut. 4:29; Jer. 29:13), that is, He will manifest Himself to you! There is not a single verse in the entire Bible, that teaches that any sinner is first "regenerated", and then they "repent"! Titus 3:5 speaks of "regeneration", where the Greek says "born-again". So, it would appear from what some believe, that a sinner is "born-again" TWICE. First, when the Holy Spirit "regenerates" them, and then when they repent and are forgiven! Such is the folly of man-made theology!
Brother,
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I know you were responding to another poster that I have blocked, but since you tagged me I will offer my thoughts. Even Calvinists disagree on the exact sequence of the ordo salutis. I am of the conviction that a creature cannot believe while still in his sins. The Holy Spirit must make the creature able to believe. How else can a sinner be made able except by the Spirit and what is that ability other than regeneration?
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If you don’t know the Scriptures better, then perhaps you should hold back the desire to condemn views that you find personally disagreeable?and your Scripture evidence is...?
If you don’t know the Scriptures better, then perhaps you should hold back the desire to condemn views that you find personally disagreeable?
Again from Ephesians:
3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5heb predestined us for adoption to sonshipc through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9hed made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.
11In him we were also chosen,e having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
You are just not attending to what I quoted.Thanks for the advice. However, if you would very carefully and prayerfully re-read what you have quoted above, you will see that it says nothing about "election TO salvation"! In verses 4-5 we read of the "choice" of God that those who are the saved, should like "holy and blameless" lives. God has "προορίζω", determined beforehand that these saved, born again by their faith in Jesus Christ, are "adopted to sonship" in the Lord Jesus. See the key words in verse 13, "you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation". Or as the Greek has it, "upon hearing the Message..." And, "WHEN you believed (upon believing), you were MARKED OUT...". This very clearly shows the "timing" of AFTER a sinner repents and is born again, that they are "adopted as children of God". There is not a single hint even here, to suggest what the "Reformed" try to get from this passage, of "predestined TO salvation"! If I have missed this, then show me how from here or other Scriptures, and NOT theology!