Confirmation in 2013 of Prophetic Messages

[BobRyan]

Greetings again Bob,
I will attempt to take the essence of your responses by quoting a few portions: I differ here, as I believe that the prophecies are not conditional on Israel accepting Jesus as their Messiah at the first coming. I believe that the prophecies are true and many aspects are yet to be fulfilled in the restoration and conversion of Israel

In Romans 9 - Paul says that the prophecies given to Israel that appear to be destined to fail - are to be fulfilled in the case of the church for it is the sons of the promise (in the Gospel) that are true Israel according to Paul in Romans 2, and in Romans 4 and in Romans 9.

and the subjection and conversion of the nations. A close analysis of these prophecies require Israel rejecting their Messiah for the exact details to be fulfilled.

I know of no text in the ot stating that the nation of Israel would reject the Messiah - or that they were supposed to.

Neither of those teachings can be found in the OT - as far as I know.

I am not sure of what you are saying wrt Zechariah 9. I believe that the portion of Zechariah 9:9-10 that speaks of Zion’s King ruling from sea to sea will be when Jesus, the Son of David sits upon the throne of David in Jerusalem

That part is true - but it is the "new Jerusalem" of Rev 21 where we see Him doing that.

And also it is the 2nd coming where He destroys all the wicked and takes the saints to heaven "to the place in His Father's house" that He is preparing for them. "For the dead in Christ will rise first and then we who are alive and remain will be caught UP together with them in the air" to be WITH the Lord. 1Thess4.

"that where I am there you may be ALSO" John 14.

for the 1000 years. It is necessary to read all of Psalm 72 to show that it speaks of the second coming and the kingdom on earth for the 1000 years:
Psalm 72:1 (KJV): Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king’s son.
Psalm 72:8 (KJV): He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.

I don't see anything there about the 1000 years. It can either be an alternate scenario for an Israel that accepts her Messiah - or in the ultimate sense - the reign of Christ on Earth at the end of the Millennium.

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

The problem there is that in Luke 1 there is no rejection of Christ as Messiah yet. And John is predicting a great reform and that the people will follow Christ or be cut out of Israel. Nothing in Luke 1 about "you will reject the Messiah but then later - after about 2000 years you will accept him"

Let us consider the captivity of AD70 and you will notice that Jesus claims that what is happening to Judah and Jerusalem is because of what the OT prophets have spoken:
Luke 21:22-24 (KJV): 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
We have witnessed by the facts of history that Rome overthrew Judah and Jerusalem in AD 70, but this predicts that it is for a period of time, the times of the Gentiles. This period of 2300 years of captivity and subjection was complete in AD 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem from the hands of the Gentiles.

The 2300 years of Daniel 8 begins with the Persian Empire according to the chapter itself. If you start it in 70 AD - you are starting it about 500 years too late - according to Daniel 8.

Joel in his prophecy speaks of the release from captivity of Judah (in 1948) and Jerusalem (in 1967) before the Battle of Armageddon:
Joel 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, 2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.
Joel 3:9-11 (KJV): 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
Joel uses the same language as Isaiah 2:1-4, but this time it is in preparation for the Battle of Armageddon. Isaiah speaks of the aftermath of this Battle.

Joel 2 is quoted by Peter in Acts 2. That is one of the fulfillments for Joel 2.

In any case no mention of the 1000 years in Joel 2 or 3.

And as we saw in Jeremiah 4 - the earth is desolate during the 1000 years - not a single human alive on it. And in Rev 19 we see that all the wicked are dead as the result of the 2nd coming - an din 1Thess 4 all the saints taken up to heaven by Christ. That leaves no living humans on earth for the 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

We seem to be polarised into two different positions, and I do not think we will change very much. I could look up my SDA references, but I would like to know what is the SDA view of the Battle of Armageddon.
Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV): 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Why I ask is that I believe that this is parallel with many of the OT prophecies that I have already quoted, but I think that you have dismissed as being only applicable if Israel had accepted Jesus at his first advent. Here in Revelation 16 we have possibly a similar prophecy given after the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Trevor -

Greetings again Bob,

We seem to be polarised into two different positions, and I do not think we will change very much. I could look up my SDA references, but I would like to know what is the SDA view of the Battle of Armageddon.
Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV): 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Why I ask is that I believe that this is parallel with many of the OT prophecies that I have already quoted, but I think that you have dismissed as being only applicable if Israel had accepted Jesus at his first advent. Here in Revelation 16 we have possibly a similar prophecy given after the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus.

Kind regards
Trevor

Ultimately you see the war of Armageddon waged in Rev 19 at the 2nd coming. The armies of heaven arrive - and the kings and armies of earth oppose them - there is a great slaughter and the "Feast of the birds" is called for in Rev 19 just as predicted in the OT.

Rev 16 tells us that near the end of the 7 last plagues - the evil spirits - Satan and his fallen angels - go (in some form) to the governments of earth "the kings of the earth" and convince them to prepare for war against God - because they know that the army of heaven described in Rev 19 - will surely show up.

In Rev 12 "there was war in heaven" angels fought angel in that ancient ward. Now it is brought down to earth - and evil angels join forces with the governments of the earth to try and fight off the armies of heaven as described in Rev 19.

But beyond this - the war has a second phase. The one you see in Rev 20 after the 1000 years are complete. All the forces of evil - both evil angels and all evil humans that have ever lived - come against the New Jerusalem - but fire comes down out of heaven as part of the great white throne judgment also described in Rev 20 - and devours the wicked.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

What I would like to know Bob, is what "revelation" did EGW give that was not already recorded in the scriptures? For if it was already recorded, then that is preaching rather than giving revelation.

Agreed. The Claim being made by prophets is not simply that they are "preaching what someone else was told by God". The claim is that God has just told them something in true Numbers 12:6 fashion.

So then -- see page 1 of this thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Since some people are choosing other threads to question items on the OP and page 1 of this thread - I am adding the answer to one of the points here -

[FONT=&quot]Example: 1902 prediction of 1906 destruction of SF. (From OP of this thread)
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Originally Posted by BobRyan [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Disasters and Wars[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

In 1902, she warned that the cities around the bay area of California would suffer disaster. She wrote this: "Not long hence, these cities will suffer under the judgment of God. San Francisco and Oakland are becoming as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Lord will visit them in wrath" (Evangelism, 403-404). [/FONT]
Those who heeded Ellen White’s warning left this area and avoided the earthquake of April 18, 1906, which devastated the cities mentioned!
From: http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=2017964#post2017964

The San Francisco earthquake of 1906 was a major earthquake that struck San Francisco and the coast of Northern California at 5:12 a.m. on Wednesday, April 18, 1906.[3] Devastating fires broke out in the city and lasted for several days. As a result of the quake and fires, about 3,000 people died[4] and over 80% of San Francisco was destroyed.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake

The earthquake and resulting fire are remembered as one of the worst natural disasters in the history of the United States[5] alongside the Galveston Hurricane of 1900 and Hurricane Katrina in 2005.[6] The death toll from the earthquake and resulting fire is the greatest loss of life from a natural disaster in California's history.

 

[targus]

Since some people are choosing other threads to question items on the OP and page 1 of this thread - I am adding the answer to one of the points here -

[FONT=&quot]Example: 1902 prediction of 1906 destruction of SF. (From OP of this thread)
[/FONT]

Aren't there rules about posting the same thing on multiple threads?

You have put this exact same post on three different threads.

We have seen it.

We just aren't buying your FALSE PROPHET.

 

[BobRyan]

Aren't you one of those that tries to turn every thread into something about Ellen White?

Well here is a thread that is actually on that topic - why do you keep bringing it up everywhere else - and then complaining that the same facts that debunk your false accusations here - apply when you do it elsewhere as well?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

Aren't you one of those that tries to turn every thread into something about Ellen White?

Well here is a thread that is actually on that topic - why do you keep bringing it up everywhere else - and then complaining that the same facts that debunk your false accusations here - apply when you do it elsewhere as well?

in Christ,

Bob

Are you so quicj to post Ellen white's false messages and false revelations here?

 

[BobRyan]

I am always quick to post a response for those who insist that we hear from Ellen White on some subject.

But those are not my usual topics - those are my responses to others here who demand that we hear about what God told Ellen White.

A number of posters here have insisted that I post examples of evidence, fulfilled prophecy etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

I am always quick to post a response for those who insist that we hear from Ellen White on some subject.

But those are not my usual topics - those are my responses to others here who demand that we hear about what God told Ellen White.

A number of posters here have insisted that I post examples of evidence, fulfilled prophecy etc.

in Christ,

Bob

But why don'y you also list and give us her false prophecies and alleged revealtions?

 

[Sapper Woody]

And the remainder of the complaints in the list primarily center around rehashing the idea that some of those who oppose Ellen White's ministry - also oppose Jeremiah 18.

Jeremiah 18 does not apply a blanket affect to all prophecies. It is very explicit in its language. The "conditional prophecy" only applies to the instances stated; that is, God will not destroy or bless a nation he has promised to if they change. It does not allow for any other kind of prophecy other than one dealing with the fall/rise of a nation. Therefore, if one of the prophecies that did not deal with judgment on a national level did not come to fruition, the prophet is false.

On this thread alone, there is enough evidence to debunk her as a prophet. Anything you've posted so far has not been contradictory to the statements made by others. They ask a question, and you answer an un-asked one, both in this thread and in others.

You constantly repeat yourself without clarification, and copy your posts over and again. You put forth "truth" that anyone can clearly see are lies. And beyond that, I can't even comprehend why you would be on a Baptist board, where obviously everyone is going to disagree with you.

I pity you. That you can so blindly follow one so obviously deluded.

 

[BobRyan]

The first 3 items on the list are obviously not a claim by Ellen White regarding a single vision or dream given to her by God. Nor is it even a quote from Ellen White about anything.

Oh - that's right - "we were not supposed to notice".

And the remainder of the complaints in the list primarily center around rehashing the idea that some of those who oppose Ellen White's ministry - also oppose Jeremiah 18.

What else would we expect?

We have the sure word of God, inspired revelation from the HS<

Turns out the Bible tells us to accept the prophets of God instead of constantly rejecting them as Israel was prone to do.


We believe that Isaiah 30:8-11 is actually true.

We believe that Eph 4:11-14 is actually true.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3)



We believe that 1Cor 14:1 is actually true.

We believe that 1Cor 12 is true.

We believe that Rev 19:10 is true as well as Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We do not believe in a bunch of tiny little gods talking to Agabus in Acts, or Anna in the Gospels or Philip's 4 daughters or the "Each one has a revelation" in 1Cor 14.

Rather all of them are hearing from the "ONE God in THREE persons".

As much as this sola-scriptura approach to the subject of spiritual gifts and especially the Bible gift of prophecy - does not sit well with the traditions of man - we choose to accept it as the Bible teaches it -- anyway.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The first 3 items on the list are obviously not a claim by Ellen White regarding a single vision or dream given to her by God. Nor is it even a quote from Ellen White about anything.

Oh - that's right - "we were not supposed to notice".

And the remainder of the complaints in the list primarily center around rehashing the idea that some of those who oppose Ellen White's ministry - also oppose Jeremiah 18.

What else would we expect?

Jeremiah 18 does not apply a blanket affect to all prophecies. It is very explicit in its language. The "conditional prophecy" only applies to the instances stated; that is, God will not destroy or bless a nation he has promised to if they change.

Which includes Nineveh being blessed with judgment delayed - instead of doom predicted - when they repent.

it includes the case of Moses who predicts that they are all going directly to the Land of Canaan after worshipping God at Sinai - and yet - all that are 40 and older actually die in the wilderness.

The promised blessing is deferred - due to rebellion.

In Ezek 18 we see the conditional promises "individually applied" and most certainly not at the "nation level".

Making stuff up about Jeremiah 18 and the conditional element of prophecy not allowing the Ezek 18 individual concept of conditional prophecy - does not hold up to the sola scriptura test.

As we can all see by now.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

Turns out the Bible tells us to accept the prophets of God instead of constantly rejecting them as Israel was prone to do.


We believe that Isaiah 30:8-11 is actually true.

We believe that Eph 4:11-14 is actually true.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3)



We believe that 1Cor 14:1 is actually true.

We believe that 1Cor 12 is true.

We believe that Rev 19:10 is true as well as Rev 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

We do not believe in a bunch of tiny little gods talking to Agabus in Acts, or Anna in the Gospels or Philip's 4 daughters or the "Each one has a revelation" in 1Cor 14.

Rather all of them are hearing from the "ONE God in THREE persons".

As much as this sola-scriptura approach to the subject of spiritual gifts and especially the Bible gift of prophecy - does not sit well with the traditions of man - we choose to accept it as the Bible teaches it -- anyway.


in Christ,

Bob

We KNOW that there are no more prophets/apostles given by god to us after the Apsotolic era, for we now have the complete canon of the revealtion of God in the Bible to us!

Ellen White made false predictions/added to scriptures/denied true Gospel/mixed works and Grace

Why not come out and follow jesus, not her?

 

[BobRyan]

We KNOW that there are no more prophets/apostles given by god to us

You only know that there are no more prophets after some magic date like 99 AD - by "making stuff up".

You have free will to make stuff up --

But don't expect me or any other serious Bible student to follow your lead in such a game.

Because for the rest of us - there is the actual Bible telling us to listen to God's prophets - instead of "making stuff up" with some magic-date in our head such as 99 A.D.

Hence that whole list of Bible texts you copy-paste quote - but then are so careful to avoid in the text of your response.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

You only know that there are no more prophets after some magic date like 99 AD - by "making stuff up".

You have free will to make stuff up --

But don't expect me or any other serious Bible student to follow your lead in such a game.

Because for the rest of us - there is the actual Bible telling us to listen to God's prophets - instead of "making stuff up" with some magic-date in our head such as 99 A.D.

Hence that whole list of Bible texts you copy-paste quote - but then are so careful to avoid in the text of your response.


in Christ,

Bob

the book of Acts recorded for us historical how the Spirit did use prophesy, and Apostles, and prohets given by God to instruct/teach early church, due to NO completed canon, Bible...

now we have that, and thus all other activities as in Acts have ceased now, since John!