Confirmation in 2013 of Prophetic Messages

[targus]

Saying the SDA doesn't condone abortion is like saying that a brothel owner doesn't condone adultry.

 

[BobRyan]

The June 25, 1867, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald contained what apparently was the first statement on abortion to appear in Adventist literature. In an article titled "Fashionable Murder," the author, John Todd, praised the work of the Physicians' Crusade—a late nineteenth-century movement against abortion, which had been widely practiced in America during the early part of that century.
Speaking of abortion, Todd declared, "The willful killing of a human being at any stage of its existence is murder."4

The abortion question was again addressed in the November 30, 1869, issue of the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. Under the title "A Few Words Concerning a Great Sin" the Review said, "One of the most shocking and yet one of the most prevalent sins of this generation is the murder of unborn infants. Let those who think this a small sin read Psalm 139:16. They will see that even the unborn child is written in God's book. And they may be well assured that God will not pass unnoticed the murder of such children." 5

A Solemn Appeal contained the Adventist press's next reference to abortion. James White edited this book in 1870, while he was president of the General Conference. White excerpted a statement from Dr. E. P. Miller's Exhausted Vitality for inclusion in the book. The quotation he used reflects the strong sentiments of those physicians involved in the crusade against abortion. Miller castigated abortion as a "nefarious business," a "worse than devilish practice," and a "terrible sin." He went on to say, "Many a woman deter mines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has 'as many children as he can support,' instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten.
"The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure." 6

Kellogg speaks out
What about the "right arm" of the church, the medical work? In his book Man, the Masterpiece, published in 1894, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg argued against the idea that abortion was permissible before quickening. "From the very moment of conception, those processes have been in operation which result in the production of a fully developed human being from a mere jelly drop, a minute cell. As soon as this development begins, a new human being has come into existence—in embryo, it is true, but possessed of its own individuality, with its own future. . . . From this moment, it acquires the right to life, a right so sacred that in every land to violate it is to incur the penalty of death. . . . None but God knows the full extent of this most heinous crime." 7

The statements quoted above verify the little-known fact that historic Adventism was not silent regarding the abortion question. While the church did not directly involve itself in the 40-year battle to legislate anti-abortion statutes in the United States, the evidence shows where these Adventist leaders stood on the issues that crusade raised.


Ellen G. White ... did make a number of strong statements regarding the sanctity of human life. For example, she wrote: "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life. . . .
"God looks into the tiny seed that He Himself has formed, and sees wrapped within it the beautiful flower, the shrub, or the lofty, wide-spreading tree. So does He see the possibilities in every human being." 8

And in another place she spoke even more directly to the point of protecting innocent human life when she wrote, "Human life, which God alone could give, must be sacredly guarded."9

 

[BobRyan]

At the risk of returning the thread - back to its subject - back on topic --- and away from the Targus derailment agenda...



1. The Bible tells us to accept the messages God gives to His prophets for the church (see 1Thess 5:19-20, Isaiah 8) and to "desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1.

2. But God also tells us to "test the spirits" and to discern between true prophets and false prophets (1Johh 4:1-3). Notice that God does not say "the test is - the prophet has to be named the Apostle John" when giving this message to John in 1John 4:1 - as so many have imagined the test to be.

In 1John 4 a test - is that they have to teach and promote the fact that Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh in the incarnation.

In Isaiah 8:20 the test is that the prophet's message claimed to be from God must also be judged by and tested by the doctrines as stated in the Bible itself. (This is why I find it pointless to discuss the subject of a true or false prophet with someone before first discussing the subject of basic Bible doctrines.)

3. And another example is that the message must be found to be accurate and true in terms of events, past, present, future as it is claimed that God is making the statement - God is giving the message to a prophet.

Just a few examples of this can be found here -



Predictions Claims - fulfilled:
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible



======================================================
The Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan, United States, was a health resort based on the health principles advocated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church,
...

The sanitarium became a destination for both prominent and middle-class American citizens. Celebrated American figures who visited the sanitarium (including Mary Todd Lincoln and Sojourner Truth) would influence and encourage enthusiasm for health and wellness among the general population. "Battle Creek Sanitarium was world renowned and became the 'in' place for the rich and famous to seek their lost health, to listen to health lectures and to learn and practice the principles of a healthy lifestyle".[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_Creek_Sanitarium
======================================================


WSJ (Wall Street Journal) 2013 independent article
JAMA 2013 Article confirms health results.

(Since a number of quotes and predictions at that link involve health -- it is Interesting that the Journal of the American Medical Assoc came out with this study related to health and Seventh-day Adventists --
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...41042514.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_second)


===============
The authors tracked 73,308 members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church for almost six years. The church is known for promoting a vegetarian diet, though not all of its followers adhere to that teaching. Researchers found out what type of diet participants ate, then followed up to find out how many of those participants had died and how.
===================

4. And as far as doctrine goes - there is always the fact that she agrees with the Bible on the subject of the origin of the Sabbath - right where the Baptist Confession of Faith - ALSO agrees is the Bible origin for Sabbath -- and yet you differ.


I think you would agree that her view that the Bible origin for the 4th Commandment as given to all mankind - in Eden - is in perfect agreement with the Bible and the Baptist Confession of Faith - 1689 - -but you choose to differ.

 

[targus]

The June 25, 1867, Advent Review and Sabbath Herald contained what apparently was the first statement on abortion to appear in Adventist literature. In an article titled "Fashionable Murder," the author, John Todd, praised the work of the Physicians' Crusade—a late nineteenth-century movement against abortion, which had been widely practiced in America during the early part of that century.
Speaking of abortion, Todd declared, "The willful killing of a human being at any stage of its existence is murder."4

The abortion question was again addressed in the November 30, 1869, issue of the Advent Review and Sabbath Herald. Under the title "A Few Words Concerning a Great Sin" the Review said, "One of the most shocking and yet one of the most prevalent sins of this generation is the murder of unborn infants. Let those who think this a small sin read Psalm 139:16. They will see that even the unborn child is written in God's book. And they may be well assured that God will not pass unnoticed the murder of such children." 5

A Solemn Appeal contained the Adventist press's next reference to abortion. James White edited this book in 1870, while he was president of the General Conference. White excerpted a statement from Dr. E. P. Miller's Exhausted Vitality for inclusion in the book. The quotation he used reflects the strong sentiments of those physicians involved in the crusade against abortion. Miller castigated abortion as a "nefarious business," a "worse than devilish practice," and a "terrible sin." He went on to say, "Many a woman deter mines that she will not become a mother, and subjects herself to the vilest treatment, committing the basest crime to carry out her purpose. And many a man, who has 'as many children as he can support,' instead of restraining his passions, aids in the destruction of the babes he has begotten.
"The sin lies at the door of both parents in equal measure." 6

Kellogg speaks out
What about the "right arm" of the church, the medical work? In his book Man, the Masterpiece, published in 1894, Dr. John Harvey Kellogg argued against the idea that abortion was permissible before quickening. "From the very moment of conception, those processes have been in operation which result in the production of a fully developed human being from a mere jelly drop, a minute cell. As soon as this development begins, a new human being has come into existence—in embryo, it is true, but possessed of its own individuality, with its own future. . . . From this moment, it acquires the right to life, a right so sacred that in every land to violate it is to incur the penalty of death. . . . None but God knows the full extent of this most heinous crime." 7

The statements quoted above verify the little-known fact that historic Adventism was not silent regarding the abortion question. While the church did not directly involve itself in the 40-year battle to legislate anti-abortion statutes in the United States, the evidence shows where these Adventist leaders stood on the issues that crusade raised.


Ellen G. White ... did make a number of strong statements regarding the sanctity of human life. For example, she wrote: "Life is mysterious and sacred. It is the manifestation of God Himself, the source of all life. . . .
"God looks into the tiny seed that He Himself has formed, and sees wrapped within it the beautiful flower, the shrub, or the lofty, wide-spreading tree. So does He see the possibilities in every human being." 8

And in another place she spoke even more directly to the point of protecting innocent human life when she wrote, "Human life, which God alone could give, must be sacredly guarded."9

Yeah, maybe a hundred years ago but what today?

Hint - SDA hospitals perform abortions on demand.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White lived in the 1800's -- not today.

If your rant is that the SDA denomination needs to return to the strong position of the church during the life and teaching of Ellen White - when it comes to the subject of abortion - I have no complaint about such admonitions. I myself make them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

I notice that you are heavily engaged in discussing with others, but I am interested in the following. I will abbreviate your response so that I can make the comment and question.

Certainly that still future event has yet to play out - but lets look at some details.

In Rev 14:6-12 the 3 angel's messages contrast the mark of the beast - vs the saints of God who "KEEP the Commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12. And in Rev 14 keeping the Commandments of God is placed in direct opposition to getting the mark of the beast - as a key element in the 3 angels Messages.

1Cor 7:19 Paul says "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

James 2 - says that ":he who is guilty of breaking one - is guilty of breaking all".

Thus in the Bible itself the contrast is between the Commandments of God vs the mark of the beast in Rev 14. We would not need the additional details God gave to Ellen White for the church - to get that much of our eschatology Biblically correct.

I did not want to discuss whether the 4th of the 10 Commandments is implied in such passages as Revelation 14:12. What I would like to ask, in your estimation and SDA estimation are the following from my earlier post to be outworked in full detail:

Here are two examples taken from "The Great Controversy", as typical of the general conclusion of this chapter:
Page 378 paragraph 1: "Those who honour the Bible Sabbath will be denounced as enemies of law and order, as breaking down the moral restraints of society, causing anarchy and corruption, and calling down the judgements of God upon the earth."
Page 378 paragraph 2: "The dignitaries of church and state will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honour the Sunday."

In other words do you claim that EG White is inspired to the extent that every word she has written in say the book "The Great Controversy" is inspired.

For example, I believe in the inspiration of the Book of Isaiah. We have almost a challenge issued to the various prophets around who supported false gods, or perhaps it was directly to the dumb idols that could not speak. In addition are two other references that are important in this regard:
Deuteronomy 18:15-22 (KJV): 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Isaiah 41:21-24 (KJV): 21 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. 23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. 24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
Amos 3:7 (KJV): 7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
My personal estimation of the Book of Isaiah is that it is all inspired. I need to carefully examine every word, and treat it as the Word of God Himself. So the question remains, do you accept the writings of EG White on the same basis as Isaiah?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Trevor -

Your posts are always on the subject - and I look forward to them.

Greetings again Bob,

I notice that you are heavily engaged in discussing with others, but I am interested in the following. I will abbreviate your response so that I can make the comment and question.

My other posts are often in the spirit of trying to get the posts back on topic. So most certainly - say on - my friend.

I did not want to discuss whether the 4th of the 10 Commandments is implied in such passages as Revelation 14:12. What I would like to ask, in your estimation and SDA estimation are the following from my earlier post to be outworked in full detail:
In other words do you claim that EG White is inspired to the extent that every word she has written in say the book "The Great Controversy" is inspired.

I don't believe that God sat down across the table and told Ellen White every word to write in the book GC. I think she was given a correct understanding of certain events - and even eye-witness views of certain events that can be found by reading the book carefully for details that only an eye witness could know. In some cases she was given insight as to what this or that person was thinking or intending.

Often she will say "I was shown" or "the angel said" to emphasize the point that this part is direct revelation from heaven.

But in other cases - she is linking specific details given her - with general histories so as to take the reader logically from one point to the next.

So there is a mix. Even NT writers will quote from some non-Christian sources from time to time to make a point - as well as quoting from other Bible writers.

For example, I believe in the inspiration of the Book of Isaiah. We have almost a challenge issued to the various prophets around who supported false gods, or perhaps it was directly to the dumb idols that could not speak. In addition are two other references that are important in this regard:
Deuteronomy 18:15-22 (KJV): 15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; 16 According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. 17 And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
Isaiah 41:21-24 (KJV): 21 Produce your cause, saith the LORD; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. 22 Let them bring them forth, and shew us what shall happen: let them shew the former things, what they be, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things for to come. 23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together. 24 Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you.
Amos 3:7 (KJV): 7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
My personal estimation of the Book of Isaiah is that it is all inspired. I need to carefully examine every word, and treat it as the Word of God Himself.

Would you say that of the entire Bible? I think it is true in a sense of all the Bible even though in some places Satan is being quoted. The prophet that is quoting Satan is being inspired to record the facts.

Even when Paul quotes non-Christian sources it does not mean that the non-Christian is inspired of God - but the Bible writer in selecting that quote - is inspired of God to make a certain point.

So the question remains, do you accept the writings of EG White on the same basis as Isaiah?

There is only 1 gift of Prophecy - according to 1Cor 12. Paul had it, Isaiah had it, Aggabus speaking to Paul had it. Anna in the temple had it. All of those in 1Cor 14 had it. None of them (except Paul and Isaiah in this list) write a single word of scripture, though they could write and probably did write messages - but they all have the same gift of prophecy. The evidence shows that Ellen White also had the gift of prophecy. One of the things that comes out on that point in the book GC - is that in her day there was sharp division between Catholic and Protestant groups. She predicted that the division would evaporate and they would work together more than not.

This was considered to be one of the most ridiculous ideas by many Christian groups evaluating her writings at the time.
She condemned the idea of medicated cigarettes - another area where medical "science" of her day objected to her statements.

Some other examples can be found here.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible

"Holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke from God" 2 Pet 1:21.

It is all one form of communication.

Numbers 12:6 "IF there is a prophet among you - I will make myself known to him by a dream or a vision".

1Thess 5:19-20 we are to pay attention to messages God gives to us via this means whether or not the person is a Bible writer. In the case of David and Nathan - David is the Bible writer but he goes to Nathan who had the office of prophet - for instruction from God.

James 2 "He who said.... Also Said" ...

The authority is based on the source - the :"He who said" not the "He who writes what was said".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

I was interested in your overall evaluation, but I still find a major difference between EG White and Isaiah and Paul. I mentioned two citations from the Great Controversy, about the world becoming divided concerning the Sabbath and Sunday, and it being a real drama at the end of times. Please note that the title of the chapter caught my attention Chapter 36 “The Impending Conflict”. Quite frankly I cannot accept these two citations, but I accept every word and personal expression given in the Bible by Paul and Isaiah. It was not only these two citations, but there were other aspects of that chapter I could not agree with.

I was relatively happy with the next chapter which I have since read Chapter 37 “The Scriptures a Safeguard”. Do SDAs read and study the Bible? The few I had contact with at work did not seem to be Bible students, but possibly they were not typical. My impression is the SDAs are dependent on their Pastors.

I have a respect for various expositors within my own fellowship, some from the 1800s and some more recent, and I feel much more enlightened and encouraged by their writings than that of EG White. None in our fellowship claim to possess the gift of prophecy, nor do we consider their writings inspired. There are many aspects of their writings that have been expanded and improved upon and in measure corrected, as is necessary with any aspect of Divine revelation, as God's thoughts and ways are higher than our thoughts and ways.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

Greetings again Bob,

I was interested in your overall evaluation, but I still find a major difference between EG White and Isaiah and Paul.

In James 2 we are told "He who said" one thing is the same "He who said.." Another. Pointing to the fact that it is not the greatness of Moses - but the greatness of God that establishes the authority of a message from God.

In Numbers 12:6 God says "If there is a prophet among you I will make myself known to him in a dream or a vision".

In 1Cor 12 - there is only one gift of prophecy - not two.

So whoever claims to be a prophet is making the claim that God is communicating to them via a "dream or a vision".

I don't see any way around that from the Bible POV.

I mentioned two citations from the Great Controversy, about the world becoming divided concerning the Sabbath and Sunday, and it being a real drama at the end of times.

That is a prediction about the future. Once the future arrives we can test to see if that prediction is correct.

Please note that the title of the chapter caught my attention Chapter 36 “The Impending Conflict”. Quite frankly I cannot accept these two citations,

You are free to reject whatever you wish. But rejecting a prediction about a future event either has to be based on having a better view of the future (which is not likely) or having already passed that point in time (which we have not) -- otherwise you are only left with the issue of doctrine.

If the issue is doctrine (which I have suggested is the easiest way to do the test - far easier than mustering a better knowledge of the future than the one claiming to be a prophet) - then there are a few details to note.

1. A methodist would not be inclined to approve of a Baptist prophet (bapticostals I think they call them) who claims God has approved of only believer's baptism and has rejected infant Baptism.

2. Thus a prophet in one denomination cannot be reliably evaluated by those of another denomination if that prophet is speaking on specific doctrinal differences between two - until those doctrinal differences are first resolved accurately.

I was relatively happy with the next chapter which I have since read Chapter 37 “The Scriptures a Safeguard”. Do SDAs read and study the Bible?

The first-hand evidence that all here have from my posts so far - would indicate that the answer is a resounding "yes"!

Recall that Targus is the one that is more interested in quoting Ellen White and camping out there. In response I quote the Bible - and Targus objects.

The evidence is "in" on that one.

(I have yet to quote my "pastor").

However as Christ points out in Mark 7:6-13 the tendency of church going souls is to let the man-made-traditions of each denomination rule what they consider to be right vs wrong. He has that problem with his own disciples in Matt 16 and urges them not to be so quickly taken in by the leaven of the Pharisees.

in Christ,
Bob

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

I was interested in your overall evaluation, but I still find a major difference between EG White and Isaiah and Paul. I mentioned two citations from the Great Controversy, about the world becoming divided concerning the Sabbath and Sunday, and it being a real drama at the end of times. Please note that the title of the chapter caught my attention Chapter 36 “The Impending Conflict”. Quite frankly I cannot accept these two citations, but I accept every word and personal expression given in the Bible by Paul and Isaiah.

That is a prediction about the future. Once the future arrives we can test to see if that prediction is correct.
You are free to reject whatever you wish. But rejecting a prediction about a future event either has to be based on having a better view of the future (which is not likely) or having already passed that point in time (which we have not) -- otherwise you are only left with the issue of doctrine.

My only suggestion on the above is that there are many Scriptures that show the events that are to occur in the Last Days, the days immediately before and including the coming of Jesus. Many prophets have described these events and their writings have been with us for 2000 years where the NT is concerned and much longer for the OT prophets. These prophets agree with each other and each give additional relevant detail. But I cannot read any hint in any of these that there will be a major drama concerning the Sabbath / Sunday Keeping at this time.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[BobRyan]

I fully agree that there is more detailed information on certain events that God has given to Ellen White than we have from other sources. No question about it.

1. According to the Bible - the test of a future prediction made by a prophet is not "has God already told another prophet the same thing". If it was a test -- then no future prediction could ever have been made - since one would always have to be first.

2. In Rev 14 we are told that the error coming into the world in the last days would have to do with worship. Worship of the beast in vs 9-11 compared to worship of God in vs 7. And vs 7 does quote from the 4th commandment.

So while we do not get all the details from Rev 14 - there is a slight hint.

3. John the baptizer is given the future predicted sign that he would see the Holy Spirit over the Messiah as a "sign" - no other prophet in all of the Bible was given that information. Does not matter in terms of disproving John's prophecy because such a thing is not a test of a prophetic prediction according to the Bible.

In the book of Acts - a prophet (Aggabus) is told about Paul being bound hand and foot in Jerusalem - no Bible prophet had that information about Paul. Does not matter in terms of disproving his prophecy because such a thing is not a test of a prophetic prediction according to the Bible..

In 2Thess 2 Paul writing before the book of Revelation says that a being is coming in in the last days with all the signs and wonders and power of Satan himself just before the 2nd coming -- no other Bible writer had that information before Paul. Does not matter terms of disproving Paul's prophecy because such a thing is not a test of a prophetic prediction according to the Bible.

4. We can apply the tests of scripture - but we cannot make up new ones.

As I stated before - future predictions are harder to "test before hand" - but those that have already played out - are much easier to test.

Some examples can be found here.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible


in Christ,

Bob

 

[DrJamesAch]

None of that has anything to do with whether a prophecy is Biblically related or not. Deuteronomy 18 is clear that"

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

This verse is pretty general about the content of any THING spoke from a prophet claiming to speak from the Lord. If even ONE THING does not come to pass they are a false prophet.

Even on the Amazing Facts site, they attempt to validate at least SOME of Ellen G. White's "prophecies". But, the very fact that they attempt to validate the same kind of prophecies that you say "don't count" are the same ones they use to attempt to validate her that they believe DID come true.

And Revelation 14:7 says nothing about the Sabbath.

" Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Rev 14:7

Exodus 20 (4th Commandment):

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

This is also other places in the Bible:

Psalm 146:6 "Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever"

Revelation 14:7 is an imperative to fear God because of coming judgment, Exodus 20 is an imperative of the Sabbath to the children of Israel. The 2 passages are not even remotely close to the same context.

 

[BobRyan]

None of that has anything to do with whether a prophecy is Biblically related or not. Deuteronomy 18 is clear that"

20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?

22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

This verse is pretty general about the content of any THING spoke from a prophet claiming to speak from the Lord. If even ONE THING does not come to pass they are a false prophet.

Even on the Amazing Facts site, they attempt to validate at least SOME of Ellen G. White's "prophecies". But, the very fact that they attempt to validate the same kind of prophecies that you say "don't count" are the same ones they use to attempt to validate her that they believe DID come true.

Here again I don't know what your point is.

1. I agree that testing a future prediction is difficult until you reach that future - then obviously you can test it.

2. Amazing Discoveries link above -- is not the same as Amazing Facts. Are you talking about my link above or about Doug Batchelor's organization "Amazing Facts"??

3. In the link I gave - "the future" has arrived for the predictions to be tested in a number of cases. Just click it and see for yourself.

4. In this particular thread Treavor selected something that it is still in the future do our day - something just before the 2nd coming - during the great tribulation.

And Revelation 14:7 says nothing about the Sabbath.

" Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." Rev 14:7

Until you compare it to Ex 20:11

Exodus 20 (4th Commandment):

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

That is language unique to the 4th commandment and is later quoted by other OT and NT sources - but the first that you find it is in Ex 20. That is the "source".


Psalm 146:6 "Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

As I stated before - future predictions are harder to "test before hand" - but those that have already played out - are much easier to test.

Yup - and Ellen White failed again and again and again.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=87501

False Prophecies of Ellen G. White

Prediction #1: Jesus will return in June, 1845

Prediction #2: Jesus will return in September, 1845

Prediction #3: Whites to be Thrown in Prison in 1846

Prediction #4: The Great Pestilence that Never Came

Prediction #5: Jesus to come in "months"

Prediction #6: Some at 1856 Conference to see Jesus return

Prediction #7: Earth to be depopulated soon

Prediction #8: Slavery to Revive in the South

Prediction #9: Slave Masters to Suffer Seven Last Plagues

Prediction #10: Sick man to recover

Prediction #11: Rappings will increase

ELLEN WHITE IS A FALSE PROPHET.

 

[BobRyan]

you are quoting yourself to make up these claims. (Hint your own playbook web site does not even quote Ellen White until attempt number 4.)

Hint - Quote Ellen White actually saying something you wish to discredit -- something that shows you know what you are talking about -- because you lost all credibility on 1 and 2 alone.

And try not to get stuck making an argument that turns Jonah into a false prophet, simply because you reject Jeremiah 18.

 

[targus]

you are quoting yourself to make up these claims. (Hint your own playbook web site does not even quote Ellen White until attempt number 4.)

Hint - Quote Ellen White actually saying something you wish to discredit -- something that shows you know what you are talking about -- because you lost all credibility on 1 and 2 alone.

And try not to get stuck making an argument that turns Jonah into a false prophet, simply because you reject Jeremiah 18.

Actually, Bobryan, you are the one that is "quoting yourself".

You copied your above reply from another thread. :laugh:

You are fully aware of the FAILED predictions of EGW that are on the list.

Why do you pretend not to know what is being talked about?

WHY DO SDA's WANT TO HIDE WHAT THEY BELIEVE?

 

[BobRyan]

You are fully aware of the FAILED predictions of EGW that are on the list.

The first 3 items on the list are obviously not a claim by Ellen White regarding a single vision or dream given to her by God. Nor is it even a quote from Ellen White about anything.

Oh - that's right - "we were not supposed to notice".

And the remainder of the complaints in the list primarily center around rehashing the idea that some of those who oppose Ellen White's ministry - also oppose Jeremiah 18.

What else would we expect?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

And the remainder of the complaints in the list primarily center around rehashing the idea that some of those who oppose Ellen White's ministry - also oppose Jeremiah 18.

Or they could simply be FAILED prophesies. :laugh:

You only consider them to be "conditional" prophesies because you start with the assumption the EGW is a true prophet.

 

[Yeshua1]

The first 3 items on the list are obviously not a claim by Ellen White regarding a single vision or dream given to her by God. Nor is it even a quote from Ellen White about anything.

Oh - that's right - "we were not supposed to notice".

And the remainder of the complaints in the list primarily center around rehashing the idea that some of those who oppose Ellen White's ministry - also oppose Jeremiah 18.

What else would we expect?

in Christ,

Bob

We have the sure word of God, inspired revelation from the HS< why do you keep following the false revelations from a false prophetess?

 

[targus]

We have the sure word of God, inspired revelation from the HS< why do you keep following the false revelations from a false prophetess?

Programming...

Mind conditioning...

Brain washing...

Whatever you want to call it.