Confirmation in 2013 of Prophetic Messages

[BobRyan]

Did you quote something? "err... umm... NO"

Did you establish yourself as the medical genius of our day? "err... umm... NO"

Are we supposed to resort to you - on question about how heat and pressure affect the mind over time? "err... umm... NO"

Really? THAT is the basis of your doctrine? "err.. umm..... yes??"

Seriously??

While your methods are surprising at times - they are at least consistent - I grant you that.

And so once again - you have unwittingly raised a good question for thought.

Consider the state of Medicine in the mid 1800's. Now observe the claim in the link - that God came to a prophet in the 1860's and gave a message about health and establishing hospitals and Sanitariums on and entirely difference foundation than the corrupt state of Medicine in the 1860's.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible

What is "supposed" to be the result of such a claim? -- Hint look at the actual "details"

The Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan, United States, was a health resort based on the health principles advocated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church,
...

The sanitarium became a destination for both prominent and middle-class American citizens. Celebrated American figures who visited the sanitarium (including Mary Todd Lincoln and Sojourner Truth) would influence and encourage enthusiasm for health and wellness among the general population. "Battle Creek Sanitarium was world renowned and became the 'in' place for the rich and famous to seek their lost health, to listen to health lectures and to learn and practice the principles of a healthy lifestyle".[8]

Hint: Seventh-day Adventists never claim to get their doctrine from Ellen White - but we always claim to have gotten our health message from no-other source but the messages God gave Ellen White - a woman with only a 3rd grade education.

Instead of telling us that you are a great medical genius that needs not quote anything or refer to any science - present a compelling case using actual "details".

The fact that you unwittingly point to the most verifiable evidence in favor of the ministry God gave Ellen White - cannot possibly be an accident.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did you quote something? "err... umm... NO"

Did you establish yourself as the medical genius of our day? "err... umm... NO"

Are we supposed to resort to you - on question about how heat and pressure affect the mind over time? "err... umm... NO"

Really? THAT is the basis of your doctrine? "err.. umm..... yes??"

Seriously??

While your methods are surprising at times - they are at least consistent - I grant you that.

And so once again - you have unwittingly raised a good question for thought.

Consider the state of Medicine in the mid 1800's. Now observe the claim in the link - that God came to a prophet in the 1860's and gave a message about health and establishing hospitals and Sanitariums on and entirely difference foundation than the corrupt state of Medicine in the 1860's.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible

What is "supposed" to be the result of such a claim? -- Hint look at the actual "details"



Hint: Seventh-day Adventists never claim to get their doctrine from Ellen White - but we always claim to have gotten our health message from no-other source but the messages God gave Ellen White - a woman with only a 3rd grade education.

Instead of telling us that you are a great medical genius that needs not quote anything or refer to any science - present a compelling case using actual "details".

The fact that you unwittingly point to the most verifiable evidence in favor of the ministry God gave Ellen White - cannot possibly be an accident.

She failed to be a prophetess of the true Lord, so she can not begiven as being reputable for anyhting!

 

[targus]

So does wearing wigs cause insanity as Ellen White claimed or not?

It's a really simple question.

I really don't know why I have to establish myself as a "medical genius" for you to answer it.

Does wearing wigs cause insanity as Ellen White claimed or not?

 

[Yeshua1]

So does wearing wigs cause insanity as Ellen White claimed or not?

It's a really simple question.

I really don't know why I have to establish myself as a "medical genius" for you to answer it.

Does wearing wigs cause insanity as Ellen White claimed or not?

Could be true, IF she wore a lot of them, that would explain a lot!

 

[BobRyan]

In Targus never ending pursuit of "playbook" web searches to find material that can be posted without actually knowing anything about the subject - we have this.

In the October 1871 issue of The Health Reformer, [1] Ellen White wrote of "hurtful indulgences" that militate against the highest interests and happiness of women. Among these "indulgences" she included wigs that, "covering the base of the brain, heat and excite the spinal nerves centering in the brain." As a result of "following this deforming fashion," she said, "many have lost their reason, and become hopelessly insane."


In the context of today's comfortable wigs, critics tend to ridicule this statement. But Mrs. White was referring to an entirely different product. The wigs she described were "monstrous bunches of curled hair, cotton, seagrass, wool, Spanish moss, and other multitudinous abominations." [2] One woman said that her chignon generated "an unnatural degree of heat in the back part of the head" and produced "a distracting headache just as long as it was worn."


Another Health Reformer article (quoting from the Marshall Statesman and the Springfield Republican) described the perils of wearing "jute switches"--wigs made from dark, fibrous bark. Apparently these switches were often infested with "jute bugs," small insects that burrowed under the scalp. One woman reported that her head became raw, and her hair began to fall out. Her entire scalp "was perforated with the burrowing parasites." "The lady . . . is represented as nearly crazy from the terrible suffering, and from the prospect of the horrible death which physicians do not seem able to avert." [3]


With reports such as this in the public press, it is easy to understand why Ellen White would warn women against the possible dangers of wearing wigs and trying to "keep pace with changing fashion, merely to create a sensation." [4]

What a perfect place for Targus to insert his own medical understanding of those conditioins in the 1800's - and prove from his vast wealth of science just what the impact on the brain was when engaged in those practices of the 1800's.

So does wearing wigs cause insanity as Ellen White claimed or not?

It's a really simple question.

Did you do some medical experiment/study to discover the conditions in the 1800's for wigs and then a 20 year study to see if there is a statistical test for the idea? No? So you have nothing?

And this is your final Bible test?? Really?

I really don't know why I have to establish myself as a "medical genius"

If your claim is to have dissproven some unquoted claim - feel free to provide your tests, your data.

============

And so once again - you have unwittingly raised a good question for thought.

Consider the state of Medicine in the mid 1800's. Now observe the claim in the link - that God came to a prophet in the 1860's and gave a message about health and establishing hospitals and Sanitariums on and entirely difference foundation than the corrupt state of Medicine in the 1860's.

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prop...dictions-Bible

What is "supposed" to be the result of such a claim? -- Hint look at the actual "details"

Quote:
The Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan, United States, was a health resort based on the health principles advocated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church,
...

The sanitarium became a destination for both prominent and middle-class American citizens. Celebrated American figures who visited the sanitarium (including Mary Todd Lincoln and Sojourner Truth) would influence and encourage enthusiasm for health and wellness among the general population. "Battle Creek Sanitarium was world renowned and became the 'in' place for the rich and famous to seek their lost health, to listen to health lectures and to learn and practice the principles of a healthy lifestyle".[8]
Hint: Seventh-day Adventists never claim to get their doctrine from Ellen White - but we always claim to have gotten our health message from no-other source but the messages God gave Ellen White - a woman with only a 3rd grade education.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

SDA and BobRyan's spin not withstanding...

NO - Wigs do not cause insanity.

Do you really think that anyone here is going to be persuaded by such nonsense?

Do SDA's really believe it themselves?

How loony can one group of people be? :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

In the October 1871 issue of The Health Reformer, [1] Ellen White wrote of "hurtful indulgences" that militate against the highest interests and happiness of women. Among these "indulgences" she included wigs that, "covering the base of the brain, heat and excite the spinal nerves centering in the brain." As a result of "following this deforming fashion," she said, "many have lost their reason, and become hopelessly insane."


In the context of today's comfortable wigs, critics tend to ridicule this statement. But Mrs. White was referring to an entirely different product. The wigs she described were "monstrous bunches of curled hair, cotton, seagrass, wool, Spanish moss, and other multitudinous abominations." [2] One woman said that her chignon generated "an unnatural degree of heat in the back part of the head" and produced "a distracting headache just as long as it was worn."


Another Health Reformer article (quoting from the Marshall Statesman and the Springfield Republican) described the perils of wearing "jute switches"--wigs made from dark, fibrous bark. Apparently these switches were often infested with "jute bugs," small insects that burrowed under the scalp. One woman reported that her head became raw, and her hair began to fall out. Her entire scalp "was perforated with the burrowing parasites." "The lady . . . is represented as nearly crazy from the terrible suffering, and from the prospect of the horrible death which physicians do not seem able to avert." [3]


With reports such as this in the public press, it is easy to understand why Ellen White would warn women against the possible dangers of wearing wigs and trying to "keep pace with changing fashion, merely to create a sensation." [4]

What a perfect place for Targus to insert his own medical understanding of those conditioins in the 1800's - and prove from his vast wealth of science just what the impact on the brain was when engaged in those practices of the 1800's.

SDA and BobRyan's spin not withstanding...

NO - Wigs do not cause insanity.

Always glad to get the benefit of Targus' research into the practices of the 1800's and his vast experience in conducting clinical trials to test this or that theory regarding mental health.

No need to use bible tests for this topic - after all - we have the all-knowing decision of Targus to guide.

Well I believe in free will - if there are others wiling to dscard reason and the Bible to use such methods as is suggested above - feel free to do it. I am not trying to dissuade you from your determined course.

My posting is more directed toward the objective unbiased readers - who actually pay attention "to details".

I think we can all see these last two points - no matter what view of this we take.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Targus -

So far all the trial balloons you have tried to float from your playbook website bashing SDAs have flopped.

Summary.

1. They rely on our gullibility - supposing that your knowledge of health, styles and practices of the 1800's is so profound that we should trust you as "the source" and authority for all issues related to health in the 1800's. Really - you think this is the one that the objective unbiased readers will fall for?? Be serious.

2. They rely on your ability to ignore the details in Jeremiah 18 regarding conditional prophecy and the perfect example of that that we have in the book of Jonah. Again - is this where the objective unbiased reader was supposed to fall for that practice of "pay less attention to Bible doctrine" that you are suggesting? Your playbook let you down on that one.

3. They rely on your ability to know the secret plans of various nations or the hidden agenda of the future even - future to our own time as "proof" that some contrary scenario is not in fact the one that will play out. Here again - your playbook has let you down.

AT the outset I said that ignoring all that fluff, smoke and mirrors was a better way to go. The testable features of this subject are in the area of Bible doctrine - Isaiah 8:20 "To the LAW and to the Testimony if they speak not according to THIS Word - there is no light in them".

Why not go with some avenue that you can possibly hope to make stand that appeals to "detail" and "actual fact"??

In the mean time - by following the course suggested to you by your playbook - you opened a door to one of the strongest proofs in favor of Ellen White's Ministry. The fact of the health message given to Ellen White - that launched an entire series of health Sanitariums world wide - that were well known for advancements in healing, admitting to the practices being given them by Ellen White.

The Battle Creek Sanitarium in Battle Creek, Michigan, United States, was a health resort based on the health principles advocated by the Seventh-day Adventist Church,
...

The sanitarium became a destination for both prominent and middle-class American citizens. Celebrated American figures who visited the sanitarium (including Mary Todd Lincoln and Sojourner Truth) would influence and encourage enthusiasm for health and wellness among the general population. "Battle Creek Sanitarium was world renowned and became the 'in' place for the rich and famous to seek their lost health, to listen to health lectures and to learn and practice the principles of a healthy lifestyle".[8]

Every time you think you have just the complaint you need - it turns out to be a win for the 1Cor 12 gift a prophecy and a loss for your playbook.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Some people just can't be helped.

That anyone living in 2013 would actually base their faith on the delusions of Ellen White is just so very very sad.

 

[targus]

I looked into it and it turns out that wigs in Ellen White's time were made from chiseled rock and attached to the head with wrought iron bands of steel.

The combined pressure of the 300 pound granite base and the 2,000 degree heat necessary to weld the steel bands to the wearer's head is what caused the insanity.

Who knew? :laugh:

 

[The Biblicist]

I looked into it and it turns out that wigs in Ellen White's time were made from chiseled rock and attached to the head with wrought iron bands of steel.

The combined pressure of the 300 pound granite base and the 2,000 degree heat necessary to weld the steel bands to the wearer's head is what caused the insanity.

Who knew? :laugh:

Notice that the very same rationale and tactics used by Roman Catholics to defend their unbiblical dogma's are employed by Bob to defend his false prophetess and SDA dogma's. All cults use the same methods to defend their errors and both SDA and Roman Catholicism are Christian "cults" outside of orthodoxy.

 

[BobRyan]

While "a few" appear to want to settle for acrimony and name-calling as the full "substance" of their posting here - I will take the high ground - of going back to "the details" they are so desperately ignoring in the OP

==================



Originally Posted by targus
How do you know that God has given prophetic messages through Ellen White?




1. The Bible tells us to accept the messages God gives to His prophets for the church (see 1Thess 5:19-20, Isaiah 8) and to "desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1.

2. But God also tells us to "test the spirits" and to discern between true prophets and false prophets (1Johh 4:1-3). Notice that God does not say "the test is - the prophet has to be named the Apostle John" when giving this message to John in 1John 4:1 - as so many have imagined the test to be.

In 1John 4 a test - is that they have to teach and promote the fact that Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh in the incarnation.

In Isaiah 8:20 the test is that the prophet's message claimed to be from God must also be judged by and tested by the doctrines as stated in the Bible itself. (This is why I find it pointless to discuss the subject of a true or false prophet with someone before first discussing the subject of basic Bible doctrines.)

3. And another example is that the message must be found to be accurate and true in terms of events, past, present, future as it is claimed that God is making the statement - God is giving the message to a prophet.

Just a few examples of this can be found here -
Predictions Claims - fulfilled:
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible



WSJ (Wall Street Journal) 2013 independent article
JAMA 2013 Article confirms health results.

(Since a number of quotes and predictions at that link involve health -- it is Interesting that the Journal of the American Medical Assoc came out with this study related to health and Seventh-day Adventists --
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...41042514.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_second)

The authors tracked 73,308 members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church for almost six years. The church is known for promoting a vegetarian diet, though not all of its followers adhere to that teaching. Researchers found out what type of diet participants ate, then followed up to find out how many of those participants had died and how.

4. And as far as doctrine goes - there is always the fact that she agrees with the Bible on the subject of the origin of the Sabbath - right where the Baptist Confession of Faith - ALSO agrees is the Bible origin for Sabbath -- and yet you differ.


I think you would agree that her view that the Bible origin for the 4th Commandment as given to all mankind - in Eden - is in perfect agreement with the Bible and the Baptist Confession of Faith - 1689 - -but you choose to differ.

(And so an answer was posted)

What is the expected objective response?

is it "I don't care to look at the details in your response to my question for you - I just want to stick with acrimony and name calling" ??

I leave that as an exercise for the reader.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

And another example is that the message must be found to be accurate and true in terms of events, past, present, future as it is claimed that God is making the statement - God is giving the message to a prophet.

Then for Ellen White to be a true prophet her message stating that wearing wigs causes insanity would have to be true today.

Since we know that in this present time wearing a wig does not cause insanity anymore than wearing a hat causes insanity...

We know that Ellen White is a false prophet.

 

[BobRyan]

In the October 1871 issue of The Health Reformer, [1] Ellen White wrote of "hurtful indulgences" that militate against the highest interests and happiness of women. Among these "indulgences" she included wigs that, "covering the base of the brain, heat and excite the spinal nerves centering in the brain." As a result of "following this deforming fashion," she said, "many have lost their reason, and become hopelessly insane."


In the context of today's comfortable wigs, critics tend to ridicule this statement. But Mrs. White was referring to an entirely different product. The wigs she described were "monstrous bunches of curled hair, cotton, seagrass, wool, Spanish moss, and other multitudinous abominations." [2] One woman said that her chignon generated "an unnatural degree of heat in the back part of the head" and produced "a distracting headache just as long as it was worn."


Another Health Reformer article (quoting from the Marshall Statesman and the Springfield Republican) described the perils of wearing "jute switches"--wigs made from dark, fibrous bark. Apparently these switches were often infested with "jute bugs," small insects that burrowed under the scalp. One woman reported that her head became raw, and her hair began to fall out. Her entire scalp "was perforated with the burrowing parasites." "The lady . . . is represented as nearly crazy from the terrible suffering, and from the prospect of the horrible death which physicians do not seem able to avert." [3]


With reports such as this in the public press, it is easy to understand why Ellen White would warn women against the possible dangers of wearing wigs and trying to "keep pace with changing fashion, merely to create a sensation." [4]

================

And yet we may find some mental health experts totally in favor of " "The lady . . . is represented as nearly crazy from the terrible suffering, and from the prospect of the horrible death which physicians do not seem able to avert." [3]" as a great example of perfect health - and the ideal way to apply the Bible doctrine on prophecy.

Who knows - maybe we will find such a person.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

“The artificial hair [wigs] and pads covering the base of the brain, heat and excite the spinal nerves centering in the brain. The head should ever be kept cool. The heat caused by these artificials induces the blood to the brain. The action of the blood upon the lower or animal organs of the brain, causes unnatural activity, tends to recklessness in morals, and the mind and heart is in danger of being corrupted. As the animal organs are excited and strengthened, the morals are enfeebled. The moral and intellectual powers of the mind become servants to the animal." Ellen White, false prophet.

So BobRyan can you identify for us the "lower or animal organs of the brain" that control "moral and intellectual powers of the mind" and are heated by wig wearing?

It should be fairly easy for you to do so since they are located at the "base of the brain".

Perhaps one of your SDA abortion doctors could help you out with this.

 

[targus]

I found a picture of one of those jute wigs that Bobryan keeps going on and on about. :smilewinkgrin:


http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/03/13638793-a-wig-made-of-jute?lite

Everyone really should check it out. :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

If you have a picture of a wig - then I don't know about anyone else - but that is all I need to know.

Thanks for your research.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

Yes I recommend those two books - particularly the "Great Controversy" if you are looking for predictions regarding the end of the world.

I have now read The Great Controversy chapter 36 "The Impending Conflict" pp 372-378. The main thrust of the chapter seems to be claiming that the real issue or conflict towards the end will be the Sabbath versus those who seek to compel Sunday keeping. I find this difficult to believe as I cannot find any real emphasis on this issue in Prophecy, either OT or NT. To me the real issue is not Law, but faith, true faith, a belief of the gospel of the kingdom and name of Jesus as preached by the Apostles. A faith that humbles and transforms the character so that there is trust in God and a sincere and spontaneous desire to walk in the ways revealed in Jesus.

Here are two examples taken from "The Great Controversy", as typical of the general conclusion of this chapter:
Page 378 paragraph 1: "Those who honour the Bible Sabbath will be denounced as enemies of law and order, as breaking down the moral restraints of society, causing anarchy and corruption, and calling down the judgements of God upon the earth."
Page 378 paragraph 2: "The dignitaries of church and state will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honour the Sunday."

Personally I do not believe that the Scriptures teach that such events will happen. I will bide my time to see whether this happens, and if not then EG White has misinterpreted Scripture. Perhaps you would consider this as one of her own prophecies, or if her embellishment of her understanding of the Scriptures is considered by the SDAs as inspired, then this will be a test to me if she is a true prophet.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Yeshua1]

While "a few" appear to want to settle for acrimony and name-calling as the full "substance" of their posting here - I will take the high ground - of going back to "the details" they are so desperately ignoring in the OP

==================



Originally Posted by targus
How do you know that God has given prophetic messages through Ellen White?




1. The Bible tells us to accept the messages God gives to His prophets for the church (see 1Thess 5:19-20, Isaiah 8) and to "desire earnestly spiritual gifts especially that you may prophesy" 1Cor 14:1.

2. But God also tells us to "test the spirits" and to discern between true prophets and false prophets (1Johh 4:1-3). Notice that God does not say "the test is - the prophet has to be named the Apostle John" when giving this message to John in 1John 4:1 - as so many have imagined the test to be.

In 1John 4 a test - is that they have to teach and promote the fact that Jesus is the Son of God who came in the flesh in the incarnation.

In Isaiah 8:20 the test is that the prophet's message claimed to be from God must also be judged by and tested by the doctrines as stated in the Bible itself. (This is why I find it pointless to discuss the subject of a true or false prophet with someone before first discussing the subject of basic Bible doctrines.)

3. And another example is that the message must be found to be accurate and true in terms of events, past, present, future as it is claimed that God is making the statement - God is giving the message to a prophet.

Just a few examples of this can be found here -
Predictions Claims - fulfilled:
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-prophecy-Ellen_White-true-predictions-Bible



WSJ (Wall Street Journal) 2013 independent article
JAMA 2013 Article confirms health results.

(Since a number of quotes and predictions at that link involve health -- it is Interesting that the Journal of the American Medical Assoc came out with this study related to health and Seventh-day Adventists --
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100...41042514.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLE_Video_second)




4. And as far as doctrine goes - there is always the fact that she agrees with the Bible on the subject of the origin of the Sabbath - right where the Baptist Confession of Faith - ALSO agrees is the Bible origin for Sabbath -- and yet you differ.


I think you would agree that her view that the Bible origin for the 4th Commandment as given to all mankind - in Eden - is in perfect agreement with the Bible and the Baptist Confession of Faith - 1689 - -but you choose to differ.

(And so an answer was posted)

What is the expected objective response?

is it "I don't care to look at the details in your response to my question for you - I just want to stick with acrimony and name calling" ??

I leave that as an exercise for the reader.

in Christ,

Bob

Ellen White WRONG on Sabbath day keeping as required by new Covenant, WRIONG that the SDA is that faithful remnant true church, WRONG in Inverstigory judgement, WRONG that satan is the scape goat for sins, WRONG i her revelations adding to scripture, WRONG in rejecting true Gospel...

SDA has her wriituings equal to the Apsotles for them, WRONG!

 

[targus]

And another example is that the message must be found to be accurate and true in terms of events, past, present, future as it is claimed that God is making the statement - God is giving the message to a prophet.

Unless it is just another failed prediction/prophesy from Ellen White in which case the SDA response is to say that it was "conditional" and God changed his mind.

From unfallen races on other planets to failed end times predictions to wigs causing insanity - Ellen White's "prophesies" are nothing more than the rantings of a sad deluded and brain damaged individual.

She may merit our pity but she is certainly not a prophet of any stripe.

That anyone would follow her is even more sad and pathetic.