Conflict between OT priests and OT prophets?

[Michael Wrenn]

Yes, there is a contradiction but not between what God established in Leviticus and not with God's prophets and their messages.

The contradiction is with ISRAEL'S MALPRACTICE of Leviticus and with what God's Word in Leviticus.

Israel went through the motions of obedience legalistically while their heart was not in their obedience. God rejected this legalistic form of obedience to the Levitical laws..

The same is true in regard to marriage and divorce. Israel's malpractice of permission of divorce. Sin entered into the equation and distorted God's original intent for marriage. God never intended divorce and hates divorce, yet with the inclusion of sin divorce was permitted as a lessor of two evils; physical and mental harm to the other party (Deut. 24:1-4). Hence, divorce was permitted but the issue revolved around what was acceptable divorce for remarriage.




Christ was SLAIN from the foundation of the world and it refers to the type found in sacrifices. Read Hebrews 10:1-10 to see the perfect consistency between the PRIESTLY SACRIFICE of Christ with Old Testament sacrifices as a SHADOW of the cross.

You are blinded by your false doctrines and cannot see the obvious in so much that your responses make God to be the author of Confusion as it was God Himself that established the Levitical offerings as well as the Prophetic office. The prophets preached the sacrifices as the GOSPEL TYPE (Acts
10:43). The only contradiction was between Israel's malpractice of the sacrifices but NOT between God's intent and institution of them as Hebrews 8-10 clearly and explicitly states in words that cannot be called a "contradiction" but perfect consistency and harmony with the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I am not denying that Jesus was crucified; I am denying that it means what some claim it means.

The Jewish sacrificial system had commonality with all such systems -- they were of pagan origin. The scriptures I listed affirm and explicitly state that God did not desire or require such sacrifices. if you don't believe that, what is your basis for disbelieving these clear words from God Himself?

Also, I'll put the question to you that I asked earlier: If Jesus had not come, would you be willing to resort to cutting animals' throats because you believe that God would not forgive you otherwise?

And I pose that question to all those who affirm the priestly sacrificial system and the penal substitutionary view of atonement. If you can't answer yes to that question, you are inconsistent in your beliefs.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Jewish sacrificial system had commonality with all such systems -- they were of pagan origin.

No they were not. God instituted the very first sacrificial system in Genesis 3-4. That is precisely what New Testament writers refer to as symbolic of the lamb of God being slain "FROM" the foundation of the world.

Pagan's did not institute the sacrificial system but BORROWED it from God.

God instituted the Levitical sacrificial system of which hebrews 8-10 elaborates on.

The scriptures I listed affirm and explicitly state that God did not desire or require such sacrifices. if you don't believe that, what is your basis for disbelieving these clear words from God Himself?

My basis is CONTEXT! Like all ordinances instituted by God, God requires the RIGHT HEART from the person performing the ordinance or it is worthless to God. The verses you quote are in a CONTEXT of a wrong heart but right actions. God rejects the ordinances BECAUSE OF the wrong heart in the offerer.

The purpose of any type or symbol is to express the truth it is designed to convey. The five major sacrifices instituted by God in Leviticus 1-8 are detailed pictures of the Person and work of Christ in behalf of sinners as well as a detailed picture of the kind of offerer who can publicly identify with redemptive types. Israel went through the right actions with the wrong attitude and wrong spiritual conditions and thus polluted the types. Thus their RIGHT PRACTICE became a stench in God's sight. This is the very simple truth of the context behind every scripture you have conveniently jerked out of context.

Also, I'll put the question to you that I asked earlier: If Jesus had not come, would you be willing to resort to cutting animals' throats because you believe that God would not forgive you otherwise?

Read Hebrews 10:1-4. It is God that instituted the Levitical sacrificial system not pagans or men. It is God that said "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins." It is God that commanded the sacrificial system in Leviticus. Look at Abel's sacrifice and how God responded to it in contrast to Cain's (Heb. 11:4).

And I pose that question to all those who affirm the priestly sacrificial system and the penal substitutionary view of atonement. If you can't answer yes to that question, you are inconsistent in your beliefs.

You don't realize what you are doing. You are rejecting the whole basis of God's plan and provision for redemption.

 

[The Biblicist]

No they were not. God instituted the very first sacrificial system in Genesis 3-4. That is precisely what New Testament writers refer to as symbolic of the lamb of God being slain "FROM" the foundation of the world.

Pagan's did not institute the sacrificial system but BORROWED it from God.

God instituted the Levitical sacrificial system of which hebrews 8-10 elaborates on.




My basis is CONTEXT! Like all ordinances instituted by God, God requires the RIGHT HEART from the person performing the ordinance or it is worthless to God. The verses you quote are in a CONTEXT of a wrong heart but right actions. God rejects the ordinances BECAUSE OF the wrong heart in the offerer.

The purpose of any type or symbol is to express the truth it is designed to convey. The five major sacrifices instituted by God in Leviticus 1-8 are detailed pictures of the Person and work of Christ in behalf of sinners as well as a detailed picture of the kind of qualified offerer. Israel went through the right actions with the wrong attitude and wrong spiritual conditions and thus polluted the types. Thus their RIGHT PRACTICE became a stench in God's sight. This is the very simple truth of the context behind every scripture you have conveniently jerked out of context.




Read Hebrews 10:1-4. It is God that instituted the Levitical sacrificial system not pagans or men. It is God that said "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins." It is God that commanded the sacrificial system in Leviticus. Look at Abel's sacrifice and how God responded to it in contrast to Cain's (Heb. 11:4).



You don't realize what you are doing. You are rejecting the whole basis of God's plan and provision for redemption.

Lets look at your first proof text in Jeremiah and see if it is in a context of a WRONG PERSONAL ATTITUDE AND CONDITION OF HEART:

19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
21 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

God looks at the heart and no amount of EXTERNAL OBEDIENCE can make people acceptable to God when the heart is wrong. The disobedient, unrepentant heart makes the EXTERNAL OBEDIENCE filthy in the sight of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Lets look at your first proof text in Jeremiah and see if it is in a context of a WRONG PERSONAL ATTITUDE AND CONDITION OF HEART:

19 Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.
21 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

God looks at the heart and no amount of EXTERNAL OBEDIENCE can make people acceptable to God when the heart is wrong. The disobedient, unrepentant heart makes the EXTERNAL OBEDIENCE filthy in the sight of God.

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
8 Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.
9 And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.

Do you understand what the words "MORE THAN" means? The sacrifices were TYPES that not only pictured Christ and his redemptive provisions but pictured those qualified to identify with His redemption - godly people.

When types of godliness are administered by the ungodly it distorts, perverts the truths designed by the types and thus POLLUTES the ordinances before God.

Much like baptism is polluted by administering it to unqalified candidates or the Lord's Supper participated by unqualfied candidates (Mt. 3:6-8; 1 Cor. 11:17-20).

 

[The Biblicist]

Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
7 But they like men have transgressed the covenant: there have they dealt treacherously against me.
8 Gilead is a city of them that work iniquity, and is polluted with blood.
9 And as troops of robbers wait for a man, so the company of priests murder in the way by consent: for they commit lewdness.

Do you understand what the words "MORE THAN" means? The sacrifices were TYPES that not only pictured Christ and his redemptive provisions but pictured those qualified to identify with His redemption - godly people.

When types of godliness are administered by the ungodly it distorts, perverts the truths designed by the types and thus POLLUTES the ordinances before God.

Much like baptism is polluted by administering it to unqalified candidates or the Lord's Supper participated by unqualfied candidates (Mt. 3:6-8; 1 Cor. 11:17-20).

Hos. 8:8 ¶ Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.9 For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.
10 Yea, though they have hired among the nations, now will I gather them, and they shall sorrow a little for the burden of the king of princes.
11 Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.
12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.
14 For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.
1 ¶ Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God, thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

This context is directly addressing PAGAN WORSHIP and IDOLATRY within Israel. They had violated God's law - v. 12 which restricted sacrifices and worship to ONE altar and ONE temple at Jerusalem but they have "gone a whoring from thy God" and were offering up sacrifices on many pagan altars and within many pagan temples - 11,14. They were MIXING Pagan worship, temples, altars with God's temple and altar thus POLLUTING God's temple and altar by their IDOLATROUS actions and heart.



Look at the context. Israel is DISOBEYING GOD's Law - v. 12 The disobedience is MIXING idolatrous worship in PLURAL pagan "TEMPLES" and "PALACES" with God's temple - v. 14.

 

[The Biblicist]

Hos. 8:8 ¶ Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.9 For they are gone up to Assyria, a wild ass alone by himself: Ephraim hath hired lovers.
10 Yea, though they have hired among the nations, now will I gather them, and they shall sorrow a little for the burden of the king of princes.
11 Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin.
12 I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing.
13 They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.
14 For Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples; and Judah hath multiplied fenced cities: but I will send a fire upon his cities, and it shall devour the palaces thereof.
1 ¶ Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God, thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

This context is directly addressing PAGAN WORSHIP and IDOLATRY within Israel. They had violated God's law - v. 12 which restricted sacrifices and worship to ONE altar and ONE temple at Jerusalem but they have "gone a whoring from thy God" and were offering up sacrifices on many pagan altars and within many pagan temples - 11,14. They were MIXING Pagan worship, temples, altars with God's temple and altar thus POLLUTING God's temple and altar by their IDOLATROUS actions and heart.



Look at the context. Israel is DISOBEYING GOD's Law - v. 12 The disobedience is MIXING idolatrous worship in PLURAL pagan "TEMPLES" and "PALACES" with God's temple - v. 14.

1 Sam. 15:15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed.
16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on.
17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the LORD anointed thee king over Israel?
18 And the LORD sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed.
19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the LORD?
20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the LORD, and have gone the way which the LORD sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites.
21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

1 Sam. 16:2 And Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. And the LORD said, Take an heifer with thee, and say, I am come to sacrifice to the LORD.
3 And call Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will shew thee what thou shalt do: and thou shalt anoint unto me him whom I name unto thee.

Again, disobedience to God made the sacrifices by Saul unacceptable to God. However, God instructs Samuel to offer sacrifice at David's home because David's heart was right with God.

Michael, do you have eyes to see. The truth is so simple and so clearly laid out here that God does not reject or hate his own sacrificial laws but rejects them only when those who offer them are in rebellion or have a rebellious heart. He clearly instructs Samuel to offer up a sacrifice at Jesse's town.

Do you see the comparison statements "as great a delight" "better than" demonstrating God's acceptability of sacrifices is determined by the heart condition not that he simply hates and rejects sacrifices as it is God who ordained them as is self-evident in 1 Sam. 16:1-3.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am not denying that Jesus was crucified; I am denying that it means what some claim it means.

The Jewish sacrificial system had commonality with all such systems -- they were of pagan origin. The scriptures I listed affirm and explicitly state that God did not desire or require such sacrifices. if you don't believe that, what is your basis for disbelieving these clear words from God Himself?

Also, I'll put the question to you that I asked earlier: If Jesus had not come, would you be willing to resort to cutting animals' throats because you believe that God would not forgive you otherwise?

And I pose that question to all those who affirm the priestly sacrificial system and the penal substitutionary view of atonement. If you can't answer yes to that question, you are inconsistent in your beliefs.

Bottom line is if it was not a substitutionary death then none of us have any salvation. We are all lost. We cannot be redeemed without it.

 

[OldRegular]

Prove it, or hold your tongue. You cannot prove it because you do not know my heart.

MW the following remarks by you demonstrate that you do not believe the that the Bible is the Word of God. God knows your heart! So prove that you do believe Scripture or keep your heretical ramblings to yourself!

I am not denying that Jesus was crucified; I am denying that it means what some claim it means.

The Jewish sacrificial system had commonality with all such systems -- they were of pagan origin. The scriptures I listed affirm and explicitly state that God did not desire or require such sacrifices. if you don't believe that, what is your basis for disbelieving these clear words from God Himself?

Also, I'll put the question to you that I asked earlier: If Jesus had not come, would you be willing to resort to cutting animals' throats because you believe that God would not forgive you otherwise?

And I pose that question to all those who affirm the priestly sacrificial system and the penal substitutionary view of atonement. If you can't answer yes to that question, you are inconsistent in your beliefs.

And since you do not believe the Word of God you cannot understand what it tells us. It is blasphemous to say that the sacrificial system established by God through revelation to Moses is copied from pagans. The Biblicist has already pointed out that the initial blood sacrifice for sin occurred in Genesis 3, a sacrifice that foreshadowed the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

If you would take time to read the book of Hebrews from a Christian perspective you could easily understand the necessity of the sacrificial system instituted by God for Israel but also that Jesus Christ Himself was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

Hebrews 10:1-12
1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

I know that you like to deny the necessity of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ but Scripture says differently. Dying of old age doesn't cut it!

Originally Posted by Michael Wrenn
The entire life of Jesus -- His Incarnation, ministry, death and resurrection -- was the basis of our reconciliation with God. Why does it matter so much to some how He died? Is it not enough that He died and rose again? If Jesus had come here as a human being and died of old age and rose again, would the at-one-ment, the reconciliation, been any less real, effective, or provided for?

{My emphasis.}

From:http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply...eply&p=1907958

 

[Revmitchell]

It is blasphemous to say that the sacrificial system established by God through revelation to Moses is copied from pagans.

I agree to some degree. It certainly is troubling and excessive at the least.

 

[Yeshua1]

Bottom line is if it was not a substitutionary death then none of us have any salvation. We are all lost. We cannot be redeemed without it.

if NOT thru the death of Jesus on the Cross as my propiation before tha Father, HOW would. on WHAT basis, freely justify me?

 

[Revmitchell]

if NOT thru the death of Jesus on the Cross as my propiation before tha Father, HOW would. on WHAT basis, freely justify me?

You will have to ask Michael that.

 

[OldRegular]

I agree to some degree. It certainly is troubling and excessive at the least.

It is the same as those who claim that Moses used the the Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic in writing of the Flood!

 

[Revmitchell]

It is the same as those who claim that Moses used the the Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic in writing of the Flood!

I always find it interesting when some claim that someone from scripture picked up some habit (for lack of a better word) from the secular world instead of the other way around. It usually means they have a weak case for their agenda and it is their fall back argument.

 

[billwald]

>Bottom line is if it was not a substitutionary death then none of us have any salvation. We are all lost. We cannot be redeemed without it.

That is one theory of the atonement. I prefer the Christus Victus (sp?) theory.

Reformed theology teaches that the elect were chosen by a system known only to God.

 

[billwald]

>Also, I'll put the question to you that I asked earlier: If Jesus had not come, would you be willing to resort to cutting animals' throats because you believe that God would not forgive you otherwise?


YES, if I was raised a first century Jew. NO if I was raised a 20th century Jew.

 

[The Biblicist]

>
That is one theory of the atonement. I prefer the Christus Victus (sp?) theory.

Fortunately for us it is not left to your preference. That is a false theory for many obvious reasons. The most obvious reason is that it requires one to deal with Leviticus as in this thread. The second obvious reason is that it makes Christ's death unnecessary. And the list goes on.....

 

[Yeshua1]

>Bottom line is if it was not a substitutionary death then none of us have any salvation. We are all lost. We cannot be redeemed without it.

That is one theory of the atonement. I prefer the Christus Victus (sp?) theory.

Reformed theology teaches that the elect were chosen by a system known only to God.

Correct, but was revealed by God to the Apostles peter/Paul/John its called Substitionary death of Christ as the propiation for our sins!

 

[Yeshua1]

Fortunately for us it is not left to your preference. That is a false theory for many obvious reasons. The most obvious reason is that it requires one to deal with Leviticus as in this thread. The second obvious reason is that it makes Christ's death unnecessary. And the list goes on.....

And the fact is that Jesus nor ANY of the Apsotles remotely taught it gives it the death knell!

 

[OldRegular]

Is it not heretical to claim that the death of Jesus Christ was not substitutionary?

Hebrews 2:9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Isaiah 53:5-10
5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

 

[Yeshua1]

Is it not heretical to claim that the death of Jesus Christ was not substitutionary?

Hebrews 2:9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Isaiah 53:5-10
5. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Think that one cam hold to other aspects of the Atonement, other theories, but MUST have Substitionary aspect as its primary/main focus!