Conflict between OT priests and OT prophets?

[Michael Wrenn]

Bottom line is if it was not a substitutionary death then none of us have any salvation. We are all lost. We cannot be redeemed without it.

Not true because penal substitution is a false doctrine unknown and untaught until Calvin. So your belief narrows salvation to those who follow Calvin in his grievous error.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

MW the following remarks by you demonstrate that you do not believe the that the Bible is the Word of God. God knows your heart! So prove that you do believe Scripture or keep your heretical ramblings to yourself!



And since you do not believe the Word of God you cannot understand what it tells us. It is blasphemous to say that the sacrificial system established by God through revelation to Moses is copied from pagans. The Biblicist has already pointed out that the initial blood sacrifice for sin occurred in Genesis 3, a sacrifice that foreshadowed the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

If you would take time to read the book of Hebrews from a Christian perspective you could easily understand the necessity of the sacrificial system instituted by God for Israel but also that Jesus Christ Himself was the ultimate sacrifice for sin.

Hebrews 10:1-12
1. For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
2. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
3. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
4. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6. In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7. Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9. Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12. But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

I know that you like to deny the necessity of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ but Scripture says differently. Dying of old age doesn't cut it!


{My emphasis.}

From:http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply...eply&p=1907958

I have as much right to post my beliefs here as you do or anyone else does. So, go ahead and continue to post your false charges against me; maybe it makes you feel good.

Since humans were vegetarians before the Fall, that disproves your contention that God initiated blood sacrifice for sin.

The teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount reflect the idea of "do no harm"; that is far from your pagan blood-letting religion.

So, I pose the question to you: if Jesus had not come to this day, would you be out slicing animals' throats as a sin offering to appease an angry and vengeful God? If you say no, that exposes you as a hypocrite.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I agree to some degree. It certainly is troubling and excessive at the least.

Did or did not God say these words as reported in Jeremiah 7: 22,23 -- "For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
But this command I gave them, `Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' "

What about the words of Jesus in Matthew 9:13 -- "Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

Now let's see who does and does not believe the Word of God (not directing that at you specifically, Rev). It's easy to make that charge against someone who disbelieves and disproves someone's pet doctrine. But I have never been one to seek to trot that out against those with whom I disagree. On the other hand, there are those here who love to use that tactic against me.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

if NOT thru the death of Jesus on the Cross as my propiation before tha Father, HOW would. on WHAT basis, freely justify me?

Jesus's death on the cross does not have to be looked at in terms of penal substitution. In fact, it wasn't looked at that way until Calvin invented the doctrine. The Eastern Church has always believed in some version of the Classical View/Christus Victor, and still does to this day. This was the view also of the earliest Christians.

Although I think penal substitution is a perversion of the Gospel, I'm not going to call anyone a heretic or apostate for holding it. The same cannot be said for some here regarding me and my view.

 

[The Biblicist]

Did or did not God say these words as reported in Jeremiah 7: 22,23 -- "For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
But this command I gave them, `Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' "

Now let's see who does and does not believe the Word of God (not directing that at you specifically, Rev). It's easy to make that charge against someone who disbelieves and disproves someone's pet doctrine. But I have never been one to seek to trot that out against those with whom I disagree. On the other hand, there are those here who love to use that tactic against me.

Michael, I have dealt in detail with all of your so-called proof texts and shown you have simply misunderstood and thus misinterpreted them.

God rejected their sacrifices ONLY BECAUSE of the wickedness of their hearts and actions. The sacrificial system was instituted by God from Genesis 3 as a visible symbolic expression of an inward condition of heart in response to the gospel (Gen. 3:15; Heb. 11:4). A wicked heart and wicked actions invalidated that visible expression in God's sight. Just as the Lord's Supper ceases to be the Lord's Supper in God's sight when the church or individuals are wrong in heart (1 Cor. 5, 11). God refuses to accept the ceremony as His when it is entered into with wrong hearts.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I always find it interesting when some claim that someone from scripture picked up some habit (for lack of a better word) from the secular world instead of the other way around. It usually means they have a weak case for their agenda and it is their fall back argument.

Quite the contrary when civilizations more ancient than Israel had customs and practices that were common. Or do you suppose that Israel was never at all influenced by people that came before them or lived concurrently with them?

 

[The Biblicist]

Quite the contrary when civilizations more ancient than Israel had customs and practices that were common. Or do you suppose that Israel was never at all influenced by people that came before them or lived concurrently with them?

The Sacrificial system and altar were first established by God in Genesis 3-4 long before pagan culture. God reaffirmed and reinstituted it among the Israelites IN THE WILDERNESS apart from any pagan culture and directly by God Himself and the whole book of Leviticus records it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

On ritual sacrifice:

"There is evidence of this sacrifice ritual in every ancient culture, from the Andes to the Nile, including human sacrifice to the god. The evidence reaches back into the remotest recesses of pre-history. It was practiced by the ancient Egyptians and the peoples of ancient Mesopotamia. The patriarch, Abraham, brought it with him from the Tigris-Euphrates delta when he journeyed with Terah to Haran and thence into Canaan. The Hebrews in Egyptian captivity found the practice flourishing in the Nile delta and continued offering sacrifices to the gods. It was ubiquitous in Greek and Roman religion.

Where was it? It was very likely in Egypt that the sacrificial rituals later codified in the Pentateuch began to be developed by the Hebrews according to which animals, not humans, were offered up to Yahweh. The practice continued and was eventually focused on the Temple in Jerusalem, which became the center of all Hebrew sacrifices. And so it continued until AD 70 when the last temple was destroyed by Titus. It continues even today among the most primitive peoples..."

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I'll put this question again to any and all here; let's see what you really believe and if your actions would be consistent with your stated beliefs:

If Jesus had not come, raise your hand if you would be out cutting animals' throats so God could forgive you of your sins?

 

[The Biblicist]

On ritual sacrifice:

"There is evidence of this sacrifice ritual in every ancient culture, from the Andes to the Nile, including human sacrifice to the god. The evidence reaches back into the remotest recesses of pre-history. It was practiced by the ancient Egyptians and the peoples of ancient Mesopotamia. The patriarch, Abraham, brought it with him from the Tigris-Euphrates delta when he journeyed with Terah to Haran and thence into Canaan. The Hebrews in Egyptian captivity found the practice flourishing in the Nile delta and continued offering sacrifices to the gods. It was ubiquitous in Greek and Roman religion.

Where was it? It was very likely in Egypt that the sacrificial rituals later codified in the Pentateuch began to be developed by the Hebrews according to which animals, not humans, were offered up to Yahweh. The practice continued and was eventually focused on the Temple in Jerusalem, which became the center of all Hebrew sacrifices. And so it continued until AD 70 when the last temple was destroyed by Titus. It continues even today among the most primitive peoples..."

Why are you so blind to something so simple and explicit in scriptures????

Anyone with eyes can see that the sacrificial system was instituted by God Himself in Genesis 3 and 4. The writer of hebrews commends rather than condemns the sacrificial system in Genesis 4 as practiced by Abel (Heb. 11:4).

The rise of pagan cultures and practices was subequent to that not the origin of that.

Anyone that can read can see that God instituted it Himself among Israel while they were separated from all pagan cultures IN THE WILDERNESS at the foot of Mount Sinai and the whole book of Leviticus spells it out clearly that it is God Who is the author not paganistic cultures.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

The Sacrificial system and altar were first established by God in Genesis 3-4 long before pagan culture. God reaffirmed and reinstituted it among the Israelites IN THE WILDERNESS apart from any pagan culture and directly by God Himself and the whole book of Leviticus records it.

And these verses, among others deny it: Jeremiah 7: 22,23 -- "For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
But this command I gave them, `Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' "

Matthew 9:13 -- "Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

 

[The Biblicist]

I'll put this question again to any and all here; let's see what you really believe and if your actions would be consistent with your stated beliefs:

If Jesus had not come, raise your hand if you would be out cutting animals' throats so God could forgive you of your sins?

Why are you so blind? Genesis 3-4 and Leviticus clearly and explicitly demand that God Himself established the altar and sacrifices. Are you rejecting the scriptures as inspired by God but rather originating from pagans??????

Of course if Jesus had not come the Jewish nation would have been preserved until the antitype of their Levitical rites had been fulfilled. Thus they would be proselyting the rest of the world to the religion that God had established among them.

Secondly, the shedding of animal blood was a "shadow" a type that never ever actually and literally remitted sins - Heb. 10:1-4.

I am utterly amazed that you are so blind to such obvious biblical truths - utterly amazed!

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Why are you so blind? Genesis 3-4 and Leviticus clearly and explicitly demand that God Himself established the altar and sacrifices. Are you rejecting the scriptures as inspired by God but rather originating from pagans??????

Of course if Jesus had not come the Jewish nation would have been preserved until the antitype of their Levitical rites had been fulfilled. Thus they would be proselyting the rest of the world to the religion that God had established among them.

Secondly, the shedding of animal blood was a "shadow" a type that never ever actually and literally remitted sins - Heb. 10:1-4.

I am utterly amazed that you are so blind to such obvious biblical truths - utterly amazed!

Well, why don't you just consign me to hell as a heretic as OR does, write me off, and forget about it? Why waste your time?

 

[The Biblicist]

And these verses, among others deny it: Jeremiah 7: 22,23 -- "For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.
But this command I gave them, `Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.' "

Matthew 9:13 -- "Go and learn what this means, `I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."

I have provided posts to deal with every one of these texts and you have failed to respond. You simply ignore the evidence placed before you.

As in Jeremiah's day so in Christ's day Israel was in REBELLION against God. They went through the actions precribed by the Word of God in Leviticus but with a WRONG HEART and thus God rejected their sacrificial obedience due to their heart disobedience. The same was true with the obedience of the Corinthians Church to the Lord's Supper observations. God rejected their observance of the Lord's Supper - "This is not the Lord's Supper" due to their wicked hearts and other manifest sins.

This is so simple! Your greater problem is your refusal to acknowledge the book of Levitcus as the Word of God and the Commands of God.

 

[The Biblicist]

Well, why don't you just consign me to hell as a heretic as OR does, write me off, and forget about it? Why waste your time?

Look at the way you respond to Biblical evidence you cannot possibly overturn by any kind of sane logic! You turn the discussion into something entirely personal as though citing the Biblical evidence is an attack upon your own person!

All I said, was that I am totally amazed that you can even make such arguments? Your texts are all jerked out of context. Your position depends upon denying God instituted such sacrifices in Genesis 3-4 and in Leviticus. The whole book of Hebrews approves and confirms God instituted them. Don't you think these are GIGANTIC obstacles to your whole line of rationale????? Your position depends upon PITTING your interpretation of isolated scriptures against other larger amounts of unambiguous clearly and explicitly stated scriptures that totally repudiate your interpretations.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Look at the way you respond to Biblical evidence you cannot possibly overturn by any kind of sane logic! You turn the discussion into something entirely personal as though citing the Biblical evidence is an attack upon your own person!

All I said, was that I am totally amazed that you can even make such arguments? Your texts are all jerked out of context. Your position depends upon denying God instituted such sacrifices in Genesis 3-4 and in Leviticus. The whole book of Hebrews approves and confirms God instituted them. Don't you think these are GIGANTIC obstacles to your whole line of rationale????? Your position depends upon PITTING your interpretation of isolated scriptures against other larger amounts of unambiguous clearly and explicitly stated scriptures that totally repudiate your interpretations.

No, I did not say you did that, in this instance. I did say that OR is using this tactic.

I am saying why do you continue to bother with trying to convince me of something that you cannot? I am relying on the clear words of scripture -- the words of God Himself, and the words of Jesus. Nothing you say can convince me otherwise.

 

[The Biblicist]

Look at the way you respond to Biblical evidence you cannot possibly overturn by any kind of sane logic! You turn the discussion into something entirely personal as though citing the Biblical evidence is an attack upon your own person!

All I said, was that I am totally amazed that you can even make such arguments? Your texts are all jerked out of context. Your position depends upon denying God instituted such sacrifices in Genesis 3-4 and in Leviticus. The whole book of Hebrews approves and confirms God instituted them. Don't you think these are GIGANTIC obstacles to your whole line of rationale????? Your position depends upon PITTING your interpretation of isolated scriptures against other larger amounts of unambiguous clearly and explicitly stated scriptures that totally repudiate your interpretations.

Lev. 6:8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
9 Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering: It is the burnt offering, because of the burning upon the altar all night unto the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be burning in it.

The same kind of statement above can be found repeatedly in the book of Leviticus.

QUESTIONS:

1. Who is speaking? "The Lord spake"
2. Is this a command? "Command Aaron"
3. Is sacrifices being instituted by pagans or by God Himself?

 

[The Biblicist]

No, I did not say you did that, in this instance. I did say that OR is using this tactic.

I am saying why do you continue to bother with trying to convince me of something that you cannot? I am relying on the clear words of scripture -- the words of God Himself, and the words of Jesus. Nothing you say can convince me otherwise.

Michael, I am not concerned with what I say but what about what God says countless times from Genesis to Revelation concerning sacrifices?

Your whole position rests entirely upon taking a few selected texts and placing an interpretation upon them contrary to their immediate context and contrary to a VAST AMOUNT of unambiguous Scriptues, including entire books of the Bible that demand God Himself instituted them long before any pagan culture arose (Gen. 3-4) and designed them in minute detail for Israel IN THE WILDERNESS apart from any pagan influence whatsoever (book of Leviticus) and that the New Testament not only confirms this but approves of it (Hebrews 8-10).

The obvious contradiction between this VAST AMOUNT of clear scripture and YOUR INTERPRETATION of a handful of texts is that you are simply misunderstanding these handful of texts and the context of each one proves that they all are found in contexts where God is speaking only of those who are PRACTICING WICKEDNESS while OBSERVING God's instituted sacrifices. Common sense should tell you that God could not accept such sacrifices originating from such HYPOCRISY!

This is not hard or difficult to see. You are choosing willfully not to see because the truth does not support your other views (which should tell you something about your other views when you are forced to pit God's word against God's word to justify your views).

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Lev. 6:8 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
9 Command Aaron and his sons, saying, This is the law of the burnt offering: It is the burnt offering, because of the burning upon the altar all night unto the morning, and the fire of the altar shall be burning in it.

The same kind of statement above can be found repeatedly in the book of Leviticus.

QUESTIONS:

1. Who is speaking? "The Lord spake"
2. Is this a command? "Command Aaron"
3. Is sacrifices being instituted by pagans or by God Himself?

So, you offer quotes, and I'll do the same, the first three directly from the mouths of God and Jesus.

Matthew 9:13

Matthew 12:7

Jeremiah 7: 22,23

Hosea 6:6

Hosea 8: 11-13

1 Samuel 15:22

Psalm 40: 6-8

Psalm 50: 9-15

Psalm 51: 15-17

Isaiah 1: 10-20

Isaiah 66: 1-4

Amos 5: 21,22

Micah 6: 6-8

So, God desires mercy and not sacrifice. Are you saying God was not speaking truth, or that He did not say that?

 

[The Biblicist]

So, you offer quotes, and I'll do the same, the first three directly from the mouths of God and Jesus.

Matthew 9:13

Matthew 12:7

Jeremiah 7: 22,23

Hosea 6:6

Hosea 8: 11-13

1 Samuel 15:22

Psalm 40: 6-8

Psalm 50: 9-15

Psalm 51: 15-17

Isaiah 1: 10-20

Isaiah 66: 1-4

Amos 5: 21,22

Micah 6: 6-8

So, God desires mercy and not sacrifice. Are you saying God was not speaking truth, or that He did not say that?

Michael, did you go back in this thread an look at my responses to each of these quotations??

They all have one thing in common. They are all addressed to HYPOCRITS.

Does God accept obedience to ordinances by HYPOCRITS?

You have these handful of texts and you simply jerk them out of their context in order to contradict whole books of Scripture that explicitly and clearly and unambigously and repeatedly confirm that God is the author of the the levitical sacrificial system.

Are you seriously that blind, that definant against what is so obvious????

If I took a handful of proof texts to repudiate entire books of the Bible on any other subject you would laugh me to scorn especially when the context of each of these verses make it clear that God's rejection is based soley upon HYPOCRISY rather than a repudation of the sacrificial system He instituted.

It is a very simple thing to take each of your proof text and place them back into their context and prove they ALL without exception are dealing with HYPOCRITICAL WORSHIP and that is what God is rejecting. What you are doing with these handful of texts is like someone taking the statement in 1 Cor. 11;20 "this is not the Lord's Supper" and claiming that God never instituted the Lord's Supper because he explicitly rejects it in this text when the context shows he is simply rejecting the HYPOCRITICAL observation of it.