confused about Calvin (Page 21) Round two

[whatever]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
true Timtoolman, but we must look at it in this light...

Paul also had a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of satan to buffet him.

Are you saying that Calvinists are messengers of Satan?

Well, I love you too brother.

And just for the record, I do not know of any Calvinists who say that we do not have to repent and believe in order to be saved. I do know of many non-Calvinists who say that we do not have to repent and believe in order to ba saved.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

did not say Calvinists are of satan, but they certainly can be a thorn in the flesh

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I agree that the Biblical teachings of Calvinism can be a thorn in the flesh for those who are hanging on to the carnal desires of the flesh to be the masters of their ship, and the captains of their souls.



Joseph Botwinick

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I agree that the Biblical teachings of Calvinism can be a thorn in the flesh for those who are hanging on to the carnal desires of the flesh to be the masters of their ship, and the captains of their souls.



Joseph Botwinick

This is about as deep as your get with calvies!

next is "your glue and I'm rubber" shessssh

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

A little levity is a good thing sometimes.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Timtoolman]

Are calvies causing the dumbing down of america's spiritual growth?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Are Arminians making the Gospel too complicated?

He started it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Timtoolman]

Kids, not going to play joey.
they are a thorn in the flesh but no harm too the spiritual. Use them as a growing tool to deny the flesh Standing. I gotcha.
God Bless

 

[johnp.]

RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Man had free will before the fall(where did he lose it and when could he not respond to God? Answer, he never lost it, and adam and eve continued to know and understand the word of God as shown in GEN!) and he still has it now. Unless you can prove otherwise then your just speaking into the wind.

God is Sovereign, man never was.

GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

PR 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD. How then can anyone understand his own way?

Proved Tim boy.

john boy.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Adam and Eve had the choice of staying hidden and not answering God when He called. Apparently Adam and Eve had free will, because they chose to answer Him

I am quite sure if they had no choice, God would not have called out to them and asked them 'Where art thou?' Nor would He have asked, 'Who told thee that thou wast naked?' He would have known. Man has free will to answer or reject the drawing of the Holy Ghost.

'Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.'

 

[Timtoolman]

JohnP, so are you saying that God directed everyone's steps so that their thoughts were continuelly evil.
I already know you believe God to be the author of sin. I just disagree. Or are you making a new pt.?

Tim

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Adam and Eve had the choice of staying hidden and not answering God when He called. Apparently Adam and Eve had free will, because they chose to answer Him

I am quite sure if they had no choice, God would not have called out to them and asked them 'Where art thou?' Nor would He have asked, 'Who told thee that thou wast naked?' He would have known. Man has free will to answer or reject the drawing of the Holy Ghost.

'Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.'

Yep, Standing Firm, more evidence for free will. I am still waiting for someone to refute adam and eve's example of free will before and after.
I will say that Johnp has the best answer so far. God just makes everyone do everything like puppets, even SIN. The most consistant no matter how perverted.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Joseph.

Are Arminians making the Gospel too complicated?

There is no gospel with that view but they do make an appeal to peoples ego alone.

This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. Acts 2:23.

The Despot allows nothing to interfer with His Sovereignty. A choice made by another, a choice that will determine the condition of all men, a choice that will lead to His Own death, a choice made by another will make the other sovereign even if the Sovereign allowed it. Sovereignty is choice. That is the meaning of Sovereign Lord.
God is the Author of sin. That's Calvinism with the complicated removed.

'Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.' (standingfirminChrist)

DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:

Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

john.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Nor would He have asked, 'Who told thee that thou wast naked?' He would have known.

Are you saying that God had to ask Adam, and had Adam not answered then God would have not known what happened? I hope that's not what you meant.

Besides, nothing you wrote disproves Calvinism.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
We do have something to do with our salvation. If we do not call on the name of the Lord, we cannot be saved. If we do not confess our sins, we cannot be saved. If we do not believe on the Lord, we cannot be saved.

God knocked Paul off of his high horse on that road to Damascus. Paul could have responded in one of two ways. He could have chosen to curse God and reject Him (after all, the light that shone about him did take his eyesight), or he could have accepted Jesus Christ as his only means of Salvation. I am glad Paul CHOSE Christ.

When Christ reveals Himself to people, they have a choice what to do with that revelation. The Spirit draws, but not all obey the Spirit. Many 'do always resist the Holy Ghost'.

AMen Standing. Too me that is one of the simple truths of scriture that need not be debated. Then of cours,you have them little rascals, the calvinist. </font>[/QUOTE]OK. For the Five Hundred and Fifteen Thousandth Time: Calvinists do not deny the very true Scriptures that say that you have to choose, believe, repent, etc. in order to be saved. We all believe that, which is one reason why I can say that I believe that Arminians are saved too. We also believe that people continually resist the Holy Spirit. That is obvious, since the Holy Spirit is convicting the world concerning sin, and yet the world still continues in sin.

But you ignore, over and over, the FACT that the Bible says, as I have quoted 4-5 times, that the natural man cannot choose correctly. They will always, no matter how many "whosoever wills" might be found in the Bible, choose (of their own free will) to reject God. Calvinists do not deny this fact either. We embrace the entire picture the Bible presents. You just want to ignore this part. It is not us ignoring, it is you.

You assume that because God says you must believe, that every person must have the "spiritual" ability to believe for God to be fair. That is an incorrect assumption. For God to be fair, we must all end up in hell, because we have already chosen (at least once) to reject Him. Once is all it takes. But God is gracious, not fair.

God gives plenty of commands that we have no ability to do, in and of ourselves. How about "Love the Lord your God will ALL your heart." We can't do that. There is a command that we cannot do without a special work of God in our lives. How about "Be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect?" We can't do that. This is another command that we cannot do without a special work of God in our lives. That "special work" is the Holy Spirit taking out our heart of stone and giving us a heart of flesh (called regeneration, in theological circles). This is a promise of the New Covenant in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh; 20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Notice the word "that" in verse 20. Why does God put in a new spirit withing them? Why does God take out their stony heart and give them a heart of flesh? IN ORDER that they may walk in his statutes and keep His ordinances and do them and be His people and He can be their God. It is not the other way around.

You say God is no respector of persons. That's great, it is found in Romans 2 in the context of judgment according to works. When you can correctly interpret that section for me, then you can pull that verse out and throw it at me. One question, though. Did God choose Israel over the rest of the Gentiles throughout the OT? Think before you answer. (Also read Romans 9-11 again)

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
I am still waiting for someone to refute adam and eve's example of free will before and after.

Hi Tim,

I'm not sure what it is about Adam and Eve that you think disproves Calvinism. Could you summarize it for me? Thanks in advance.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
Adam and Eve had the choice of staying hidden and not answering God when He called. Apparently Adam and Eve had free will, because they chose to answer Him

I am quite sure if they had no choice, God would not have called out to them and asked them 'Where art thou?' Nor would He have asked, 'Who told thee that thou wast naked?' He would have known. Man has free will to answer or reject the drawing of the Holy Ghost.

'Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.'

Yep, Standing Firm, more evidence for free will. I am still waiting for someone to refute adam and eve's example of free will before and after.
I will say that Johnp has the best answer so far. God just makes everyone do everything like puppets, even SIN. The most consistant no matter how perverted. </font>[/QUOTE]You guys all assume too much. Just because the story says that God called out to them (vocally, I might add) and they answered, does this mean that the Holy Spirit hadn't, through the Word that God spoke to them, just regenerated them right before they answered? I pointed to Scriptures in the NT that detail for us that this is what must happen, and yet you assume because a story from a human standpoint in the OT doesn't say it, it didn't happen.

This story of Adam and Eve was not meant to be a textbook case of how salvation works. It is there to show us God's reconciling man to Himself because of the Fall. Don't look for every detail in every story. If you want to know details of doctrine, look for doctrinal sections.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Yep, Standing Firm, more evidence for free will. I am still waiting for someone to refute adam and eve's example of free will before and after.

No Calvinist denies free will before the fall. Martin Luther used a Latin phrase that basically said that they were able to choose to sin or to choose righteousness. AFTER the fall, however, Luther (and the Bible) says that we can only (and will only) choose to sin. Regeneration is what puts us back in the place where we can choose righteousness and sin. When we get to heaven, BTW, we will only be able to choose righteousness. What happens to "free will" then? And why is it ok for humans not to have free will in heaven?

 

[johnp.]

GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time which means all free will choices will be of the same nature, every inclination is evil all the time.

JohnP, so are you saying that God directed everyone's steps...

No Tim God does.

PR 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD...

PR 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases.

...so that their thoughts were continuelly evil.

PS 94:11 The LORD knows the thoughts of man; he knows that they are futile.

PS 139:2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.

PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.


john.

 

[Calvibaptist]

John, you forgot...

Proverbs 16:33 - The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

It seems, according to God (not Calvin), that He even directs every outcome of lot-casting. Sounds sovereign to me.