confused about Calvin

I in fact do.

By witholding salvation from those going to hell, with no means of attaining it, He would be.

Agreed.

Where did I once say they were purposefully and willfully trying to drive off? Would it matter if someone put them in the car and locked the gas pedal with no means of escape? Would it matter if they entered the car, not intending to drive off a cliff...but were ultimately going to do so?

The law would tend to disagree with you. This is a crime. I would urge you to look up "samaritan laws".

See how this defense flies in a court of law. Do you believe God's standards of law supercede man's? Evidently not.

 

Webdog... you contradict yourself. You agree that man has chosen hell, but then you say it's God's fault? You agree that man has chosen hell, but then you say it's not his fault? (i.e. "he's locked in a car with the gas pedal pushed to the floor").

If you agree man is totally depraved, and man has totally chosen hell, then yes, man is completely responsible for the consequences. You cannot blame a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS God for letting JUSTICE take place. You cannot say, "Man deserves hell" and "God is unrighteous if man gets what he deserves".

You didn't, which is why I added it to make the illustration accurate.

LOL. Your illustration is warped. If the men DESERVED to fall off the cliff (as you said men do) and the WANTED to fall of the cliff and if they were SENTENCED to fall off the cliff - that is not unrighteousness, that is justice. The "good samaritan laws" don't apply to people busting condemned criminals on death row out of jail.

The court of law is over. Man has sinned and fallen. We deserve nothing but hell. We are like inmates waiting on death row. Do you see the hopeless condition of man? Evidently not. Instead you seem to think man is just "kinda bad", not totally bad. You think we can still choose good if we really want to.

 

Hello Scott.

I didn't mistype Scott. I did think after that I should not have used the word elected, I should have said chosen.

Did God not choose to hate Esau? Did He not do that before the creation of the world?

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

That they say man choses Hell leaves God's Sovereignty in the tatters it is left in after the Arminians have been at it.

It is said by Calvinists that a free but bound will is sovereign in it choosing when in fact God is the only Sovereign.
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Romans 9:21.

Before they had done good or bad.

Hello webdog.

Of course and He created us as we are. But He has actively hidden the tree of life. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

I think in France it is illegal not to aid someone in distress but I know of no other law that demands we help another except the law of God.

john.

 

Are you saying that God caused me to sin?

Adam as our federal head sinned for all of us, causing the fall and giving us a sin nature, yes. You bear responsibility for your own sin as well though.

 

Hello jw.

Yes.

giving us a sin nature The condemnation comes from Adam, as you say, our federal head. Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation...

john.

 

Yes. </font>[/QUOTE]That's complete blaspheme.

giving us a sin nature The condemnation comes from Adam, as you say, our federal head. Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation...

john. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Yet your missing the last part of 12, "THEREFORE, JUST AS sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"

We sinned both personally and federally, in and with Adam. This was not God's causing. This was man's free will.

You cannot shirk this off on God. God is not the author of our sins. God is Holy.

 

standingfirminChrist said:

Why call oneself a Calvinist?

Because it's theological shorthand that tells people something about what my identity. Like "Baptist," or "fundamentalist," or "conservative," or "Canadian."

I find no scripture to back up the title.

What of it? There's no list of "approved" titles in Scripture, nor is there any reason that we should be limited to the titles used within Scripture.

 

johnp. said:

HaHa! Thanks Ransom. "hyper-Calvinism." should read to some, John Hyper-Calvin?

Sorry, but if you're going to quote me and invoke my name, is it too much to ask that you at least make sense?

 

Yes Ransom. Since many call double predestination hyper-Calvinistic then John Calvin should be referred to as an hyper-Calvinist. That's all. I 'invoked' your name to thank you for being fair.

I shall endeavour to make sense in the future.

john.

 

It is common sense that by default if God doesn't elect those to hell, He ultimately elects the rest to hell. There is no way of getting around that.

If I saw two cars about to run off a cliff, and I had the ability to save both...but choose only to save one, I have selected the destiny of both. I would be a monster to do such a thing (and probably charged with a crime in our society), and this is exactly what calvinism makes God out to be. </font>[/QUOTE]webdog,

Your analogy doesn't work at all...

It assumes everyone is wonderful and deserves being rescued. The more accurate analogy is this:

The people driving the cars are sinners who hate you and they are trying to run you over. In grace and mercy you decide to rescue one of them.

We are sinners, webdog. That means we are God's enemies. We hate God and have no interest in holiness in our sinful condition.

 

standingfirminChrist:

I would much prefer NOT to be known as a "Calvinist" but a Christian. However, the state of evangelicalism today is so removed from the reformers, who rescued the Gospel from Rome, that the term is helpful as a distinction. If I know someone is Calvinistic in their soteriology, then I believe they understand the gospel and sovereignty of God in a way that, frankly, is accurate and true.

 

The Bible also calls God a "fair, merciful" God. Your view of God is anything but.

You are correct in saying the court of law is over. Christ paid the fine for ALL men. He says so. This does not leave man in a hopeless condition as you believe, but a hope-ful condition, one based on faith in Christ. Nothing we are required to do besides that. But faith is REQUIRED...meaning that arbitrary selection, a better phrase for 'unconditional election' is out

 

It's mercy to rescue one of them and not the other?!? To add to your analogy, I tell both drivers the key is in the car to unlock themselves, and that is all they have to do to survive. I call only one of the drivers to tell them where the key is located, allowing the other to perish. Some loving god that would be. I will believe the loving God of John 12:32 and the Bible who has given man the condition as to how they are to be saved.

 

Yes. </font>[/QUOTE]That's complete blaspheme.

giving us a sin nature The condemnation comes from Adam, as you say, our federal head. Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation...

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Yet your missing the last part of 12, "THEREFORE, JUST AS sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"

We sinned both personally and federally, in and with Adam. This was not God's causing. This was man's free will.

You cannot shirk this off on God. God is not the author of our sins. God is Holy. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]JW I am surprised they let this guy post. I know of no other faith or cult even that blasphme God's character like this. I wouldn't waste your time.

J. Calvin
or
J. Christ
Whom will you follow,
Tim

 

Sinful man going to hell isn't fair? God saving men who deserve nothing but hell isn't mericful?

Once again, you turn away from the depravity of man. I've asked you this question several times now, please answer.

Were you saved because you had goodness in your heart enough to make that right decision, or were you saved because the Holy Spirit of God quickened your stone cold dead heart so that you could turn to Him?

It basically boils down to, do you think man is partly dead or totally dead (spiritually speaking). So what's it going to be?

 

Unfortunately, by default, Johnp's view is the correct view of calvinism. It's either all God or all man according to reformed theolgy...can't be both. There is no thing as free will in calvinism, meaning faith itself is not genuine as it has been "given". If faith is not required in becoming the "elect", then man's sin cannot be the demise of the reprobate...it's "all God".

 

Man had a completely unfettered free will up until the fall. Now man is born with a sin nature, and man now always chooses sin. This isn't God's fault any more than the fall of man is God's fault.

And you still aren't answering my question. Is man just "spirituallly sick" or is he "spiritually dead"?

 

It's mercy to rescue one of them and not the other?!? To add to your analogy, I tell both drivers the key is in the car to unlock themselves, and that is all they have to do to survive. I call only one of the drivers to tell them where the key is located, allowing the other to perish. Some loving god that would be. I will believe the loving God of John 12:32 and the Bible who has given man the condition as to how they are to be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]God says He will have mercy on whomever He has mercy...

He is just because He is God. Who are you to declare Him injust? Your best logical, philosophical argument is absolutely nothing to Him.

 

He is spiritually dead, meaning he is spiritually sick...I have answered this previously. Spiritually dead means spiritually spearated from God...not spiritually unconscious to God.

 

One of the more famous passages calvinism rips from context. This is like saying I will give money to whoever I give money to.