confused about Calvin

[webdog]

Do you have any sense of 1. The depravity of man and 2. Personal responsibility?

I in fact do.

God isn't electing man to go to hell

By witholding salvation from those going to hell, with no means of attaining it, He would be.

Man has elected man to go to hell. Man is thoroughly and completely sinful and is therefore deserving of nothing but hell. If we get anything other than what we deserve (i.e. HELL) then that is the most amazing act of grace that has ever been bestowed

Agreed.

Even in your own biased illustration, if you look at it as two people purposefully and willfully trying to drive right off the cliff - and completely deserving of falling of that cliff by any and every account, then if you saved either one of them from their deserved, chosen, fate - then that would be an extraordinary act of grace.

Where did I once say they were purposefully and willfully trying to drive off? Would it matter if someone put them in the car and locked the gas pedal with no means of escape? Would it matter if they entered the car, not intending to drive off a cliff...but were ultimately going to do so?

It would not make you a monster for saving one and not the other.

The law would tend to disagree with you. This is a crime. I would urge you to look up "samaritan laws".

Neither were worthy to be saved, neither deserved to be saved,

See how this defense flies in a court of law. Do you believe God's standards of law supercede man's? Evidently not.

 

[jw]

Webdog... you contradict yourself. You agree that man has chosen hell, but then you say it's God's fault? You agree that man has chosen hell, but then you say it's not his fault? (i.e. "he's locked in a car with the gas pedal pushed to the floor").

If you agree man is totally depraved, and man has totally chosen hell, then yes, man is completely responsible for the consequences. You cannot blame a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS God for letting JUSTICE take place. You cannot say, "Man deserves hell" and "God is unrighteous if man gets what he deserves".

Where did I once say they were purposefully and willfully trying to drive off?

You didn't, which is why I added it to make the illustration accurate.

The law would tend to disagree with you. This is a crime. I would urge you to look up "samaritan laws".

LOL. Your illustration is warped. If the men DESERVED to fall off the cliff (as you said men do) and the WANTED to fall of the cliff and if they were SENTENCED to fall off the cliff - that is not unrighteousness, that is justice. The "good samaritan laws" don't apply to people busting condemned criminals on death row out of jail.

See how this defense flies in a court of law. Do you believe God's standards of law supercede man's? Evidently not.

The court of law is over. Man has sinned and fallen. We deserve nothing but hell. We are like inmates waiting on death row. Do you see the hopeless condition of man? Evidently not. Instead you seem to think man is just "kinda bad", not totally bad. You think we can still choose good if we really want to.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Scott.

John did you mistype when you said... "in the way Calvinists have forsaken God's Sovereignty".

I didn't mistype Scott. I did think after that I should not have used the word elected, I should have said chosen.

Did God not choose to hate Esau? Did He not do that before the creation of the world?

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

That they say man choses Hell leaves God's Sovereignty in the tatters it is left in after the Arminians have been at it.

It is said by Calvinists that a free but bound will is sovereign in it choosing when in fact God is the only Sovereign.
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? Romans 9:21.

Before they had done good or bad.

Hello webdog.

By witholding salvation from those going to hell, with no means of attaining it, He would be.

Of course and He created us as we are. But He has actively hidden the tree of life. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

It would not make you a monster for saving one and not the other.

I think in France it is illegal not to aid someone in distress but I know of no other law that demands we help another except the law of God.

john.

 

[jw]

johnp.:
Hello jw. If that were true then why does God take the credit for it? For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:32.

Are you saying that God caused me to sin?

You err. RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
It wasn't me guv I wasn't there.
RO 5:15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man...

Adam as our federal head sinned for all of us, causing the fall and giving us a sin nature, yes. You bear responsibility for your own sin as well though.

 

[johnp.]

Hello jw.

Are you saying that God caused me to sin?

Yes.

Adam as our federal head sinned for all of us, causing the fall and giving us a sin nature, yes. You bear responsibility for your own sin as well though.

giving us a sin nature The condemnation comes from Adam, as you say, our federal head. Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation...

john.

 

[jw]

Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello jw.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Are you saying that God caused me to sin?

Yes. </font>[/QUOTE]That's complete blaspheme.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Adam as our federal head sinned for all of us, causing the fall and giving us a sin nature, yes. You bear responsibility for your own sin as well though.

giving us a sin nature The condemnation comes from Adam, as you say, our federal head. Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation...

john. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Yet your missing the last part of 12, "THEREFORE, JUST AS sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"

We sinned both personally and federally, in and with Adam. This was not God's causing. This was man's free will.

You cannot shirk this off on God. God is not the author of our sins. God is Holy.

 

[Ransom]

standingfirminChrist said:

Why call oneself a Calvinist?

Because it's theological shorthand that tells people something about what my identity. Like "Baptist," or "fundamentalist," or "conservative," or "Canadian."

I find no scripture to back up the title.

What of it? There's no list of "approved" titles in Scripture, nor is there any reason that we should be limited to the titles used within Scripture.

 

[Ransom]

johnp. said:

Well, in all fairness, some Calvinists do teach double predestination. Amongst them are John Calvin himself.

HaHa! Thanks Ransom. "hyper-Calvinism." should read to some, John Hyper-Calvin?

Sorry, but if you're going to quote me and invoke my name, is it too much to ask that you at least make sense?

 

[johnp.]

Yes Ransom. Since many call double predestination hyper-Calvinistic then John Calvin should be referred to as an hyper-Calvinist. That's all. I 'invoked' your name to thank you for being fair.

I shall endeavour to make sense in the future.

john.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
John did you mistype when you said... "in the way Calvinists have forsaken God's Sovereignty".

BTW, Calvinists do not teach that God elects people to hell because the Bible doesn't teach that. They teach that He does elect people to salvation because the Bible does teach that. Pretty simple really. Just let the Bible say what it says and adjust your thinking to its truths.

It is common sense that by default if God doesn't elect those to hell, He ultimately elects the rest to hell. There is no way of getting around that.

If I saw two cars about to run off a cliff, and I had the ability to save both...but choose only to save one, I have selected the destiny of both. I would be a monster to do such a thing (and probably charged with a crime in our society), and this is exactly what calvinism makes God out to be. </font>[/QUOTE]webdog,

Your analogy doesn't work at all...

It assumes everyone is wonderful and deserves being rescued. The more accurate analogy is this:

The people driving the cars are sinners who hate you and they are trying to run you over. In grace and mercy you decide to rescue one of them.

We are sinners, webdog. That means we are God's enemies. We hate God and have no interest in holiness in our sinful condition.

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
If they are not followers of John Calvin, why call themselves by his name?

standingfirminChrist:

I would much prefer NOT to be known as a "Calvinist" but a Christian. However, the state of evangelicalism today is so removed from the reformers, who rescued the Gospel from Rome, that the term is helpful as a distinction. If I know someone is Calvinistic in their soteriology, then I believe they understand the gospel and sovereignty of God in a way that, frankly, is accurate and true.

 

[webdog]

If you agree man is totally depraved, and man has totally chosen hell, then yes, man is completely responsible for the consequences. You cannot blame a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS God for letting JUSTICE take place. You cannot say, "Man deserves hell" and "God is unrighteous if man gets what he deserves".

The Bible also calls God a "fair, merciful" God. Your view of God is anything but.

The court of law is over. Man has sinned and fallen. We deserve nothing but hell. We are like inmates waiting on death row. Do you see the hopeless condition of man? Evidently not. Instead you seem to think man is just "kinda bad", not totally bad. You think we can still choose good if we really want to.

You are correct in saying the court of law is over. Christ paid the fine for ALL men. He says so. This does not leave man in a hopeless condition as you believe, but a hope-ful condition, one based on faith in Christ. Nothing we are required to do besides that. But faith is REQUIRED...meaning that arbitrary selection, a better phrase for 'unconditional election' is out

 

[webdog]

The people driving the cars are sinners who hate you and they are trying to run you over. In grace and mercy you decide to rescue one of them.

It's mercy to rescue one of them and not the other?!? To add to your analogy, I tell both drivers the key is in the car to unlock themselves, and that is all they have to do to survive. I call only one of the drivers to tell them where the key is located, allowing the other to perish. Some loving god that would be. I will believe the loving God of John 12:32 and the Bible who has given man the condition as to how they are to be saved.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by jw:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by johnp.:
Hello jw.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Are you saying that God caused me to sin?

Yes. </font>[/QUOTE]That's complete blaspheme.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Adam as our federal head sinned for all of us, causing the fall and giving us a sin nature, yes. You bear responsibility for your own sin as well though.

giving us a sin nature The condemnation comes from Adam, as you say, our federal head. Rom 5:16 Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation...

john. </font>[/QUOTE]Yet your missing the last part of 12, "THEREFORE, JUST AS sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned"

We sinned both personally and federally, in and with Adam. This was not God's causing. This was man's free will.

You cannot shirk this off on God. God is not the author of our sins. God is Holy. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]JW I am surprised they let this guy post. I know of no other faith or cult even that blasphme God's character like this. I wouldn't waste your time.

J. Calvin
or
J. Christ
Whom will you follow,
Tim

 

[jw]

The Bible also calls God a "fair, merciful" God. Your view of God is anything but.

Sinful man going to hell isn't fair? God saving men who deserve nothing but hell isn't mericful?

You are correct in saying the court of law is over. Christ paid the fine for ALL men. He says so. This does not leave man in a hopeless condition as you believe, but a hope-ful condition, one based on faith in Christ. Nothing we are required to do besides that. But faith is REQUIRED...meaning that arbitrary selection, a better phrase for 'unconditional election' is out

Once again, you turn away from the depravity of man. I've asked you this question several times now, please answer.

Were you saved because you had goodness in your heart enough to make that right decision, or were you saved because the Holy Spirit of God quickened your stone cold dead heart so that you could turn to Him?

It basically boils down to, do you think man is partly dead or totally dead (spiritually speaking). So what's it going to be?

 

[webdog]

Unfortunately, by default, Johnp's view is the correct view of calvinism. It's either all God or all man according to reformed theolgy...can't be both. There is no thing as free will in calvinism, meaning faith itself is not genuine as it has been "given". If faith is not required in becoming the "elect", then man's sin cannot be the demise of the reprobate...it's "all God".

 

[jw]

Originally posted by webdog:
Unfortunately, by default, Johnp's view is the correct view of calvinism. It's either all God or all man according to reformed theolgy...can't be both. There is no thing as free will in calvinism, meaning faith itself is not genuine as it has been "given". If faith is not required in becoming the "elect", then man's sin cannot be the demise of the reprobate...it's "all God".

Man had a completely unfettered free will up until the fall. Now man is born with a sin nature, and man now always chooses sin. This isn't God's fault any more than the fall of man is God's fault.

And you still aren't answering my question. Is man just "spirituallly sick" or is he "spiritually dead"?

 

[bjonson]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> The people driving the cars are sinners who hate you and they are trying to run you over. In grace and mercy you decide to rescue one of them.

It's mercy to rescue one of them and not the other?!? To add to your analogy, I tell both drivers the key is in the car to unlock themselves, and that is all they have to do to survive. I call only one of the drivers to tell them where the key is located, allowing the other to perish. Some loving god that would be. I will believe the loving God of John 12:32 and the Bible who has given man the condition as to how they are to be saved. </font>[/QUOTE]God says He will have mercy on whomever He has mercy...

He is just because He is God. Who are you to declare Him injust? Your best logical, philosophical argument is absolutely nothing to Him.

 

[webdog]

He is spiritually dead, meaning he is spiritually sick...I have answered this previously. Spiritually dead means spiritually spearated from God...not spiritually unconscious to God.

 

[webdog]

God says He will have mercy on whomever He has mercy...

One of the more famous passages calvinism rips from context. This is like saying I will give money to whoever I give money to.