Confusion over "Called?"

[Martin Marprelate]

Test what I post, see if it actually presents scriptural truth, with specific references and common sense.

Will do. Thanks for the clarification.

@Kai,
You should certainly do that.

 

[Van]

Great idea!

Hang on a moment! When did these [those?] people beome "born anew believers"? Before or after they had been "predestined"? Obviously before because otherwise they couldn't have been predestined! Did God call "born anew believers" or sinners? Obviously sinners because He tells us in Matt. 9:13. "I did not come to call [Greek, phoneo] the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Was Levi (Luke 5:27-32) a born-again believer or a sinner at the point that the Lord Jesus called him? Read the passage! He was patently a sinner, '...Called [Greek, phoneo] ... out of darkness into His marvellous light' (1 Peter 2:9). @Van may think that 'set apart' is a good word for kaleo, but it isn't! A call requires a response, and Levi responded: 'So he rose up, left all and followed Him.'

So those who are called already believers, already redeemed and already born anew as brothers and sisters of Christ are then "set apart." All this before they were called???!!! How does that square with Levi's experience?

And how does this square with Isaiah 65:12? 'Because, when I called, you did not answer; when I spoke you did not hear, but did evil before My eyes, and chose that in which I do not delight.'

1) I thought I made clear, the Redemption plan, formulated before creation, thus before anyone was redeemed, included the plan that those to be redeemed would then be predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, as born anew siblings, children of God.

2) The rest of your post addresses a fiction of your own creation, thus obfuscation. For example to be set apart is God's unilateral choice and action.

 

[Van]

Post #40 mentioned Matthew 9:13, so let's consider the verse:

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“Now go and learn what this means: ‘I DESIRE COMPASSION, RATHER THAN SACRIFICE,’ for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”​

"Call" is a translation of Kaleo, G2564. (Perhaps "phoneo" is a different transliteration spelling, I do not know.) And the TR has the phrase "to repentance, with "to" translating the preposition "eis" (into) so there is a faint suggestion the meaning of "call" might be set apart. However, my view is that the intended meaning is invite. Jesus is telling the lost to take the action to repent and believe.

 

[Van]

Here is another verse to consider, Colossians 3:15:

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Let the peace of Christ, to which you were indeed called in one body, rule in your hearts; and be thankful. ​

I believe the intended meaning of "Kaleo" (translated as called) is "set apart.

Here is my interpretive translation:
Let the peace of Christ, into which you were set apart, rule in your hearts, indeed as in one family, and be thankful.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1) I thought I made clear, the Redemption plan, formulated before creation, thus before anyone was redeemed, included the plan that those to be redeemed would then be predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, as born anew siblings, children of God.

You are still all over the place. Those predestined to believe would then be predestined???

2) The rest of your post addresses a fiction of your own creation, thus obfuscation.

Well at least @Kai knows whih one of us is aggressive and insulting.

For example to be set apart is God's unilateral choice and action.

You are correct (it had to happen sooner or later). We'll make a good Calvinist of you yet.

 

[Van]

You are still all over the place. Those predestined to believe would then be predestined???

Well at least @Kai knows whih one of us is aggressive and insulting.

You are correct (it had to happen sooner or later). We'll make a good Calvinist of you yet.

My view makes perfect sense. Your denial, "you are still all over the place" is just obfuscation.

No one said other than you, anyone was predestined to believe. Scripture says they were predestined to be conformed when they were redeemed.

 

[Van]

Consider 1 Thessalonians 4:7:

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For God has not called us for impurity, but in sanctification. (NASB)

"Called" is another example, in my opinion, of a poor translation of "Kaleo G2564), Here the meaning is "set apart."

Interpretive translation:

For God has not set us apart for impurity but in holiness.

 

[Van]

In post #28, I indicated 2 Thessalonians 2:14 should be translated as "set apart." Upon reconsideration, I was mistaken, the intended meaning from the context seems to be invited, as we were all "invited" through the gospel. My Bad.

 

[Van]

Now let us evaluate 1 Timothy 6:12:

Fight the good fight of faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and for which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.​

Here, again, I believe the intended meaning of "kaleo" in this verse is "set apart." The "to" is the preposition "eis" (into) and thus supports relocation into everlasting life in Christ.

Here is an interpretive translation:

Fight the good fight of faith, take hold of the everlasting life into which you were set apart, when you made the genuine confession of faith in Christ, in the presence of many witnesses.

 

[Van]

Consider 2 Timothy 1:9:

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who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, ​

Called translates "Kaleo" with the intended meaning of set apart, because the "us" refers those existing in the present who are "in Christ Jesus."

But what about the "holy calling?" Here the Greek word translated as "calling" is "Klesis," G2821, which is used about 11 times in the New Testament.

The intended meaning is not invitation to salvation, or being set apart into Christ for salvation, but refers to our existent vocation or situation, or our new vocation, the ministry of reconciliation, our "holy calling."

Here are a few verses where "klesis" appears:

Romans 11:29 our post salvation gifts and holy calling, in the ministry of reconciliation, are irrevocable.

1 Corinthians 1:26, consider our gifts and situation when we embraced the ministry of reconciliation. Not many of us were wise, powerful or well born.

In Ephesians 1:8, 4:1 and 4:4 the intended meaning is "ministry of reconciliation."

This same concept, our post salvation "holy calling" is also referred to as our measure of faith, in Romans 12:3. We are not to think more highly of ourselves, as God has given to each person set apart in Christ a role or part to play in the ministry of reconciliation, each person's important contribution to the faith.

 

[Van]

Interpretive Translation 2 Timothy 1:9

"...who saved us and set us apart with the ministry of reconciliation, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was granted to all of us set apart in Christ Jesus, according to His redemption plan formulated from all eternity.

We were saved from our sinful state, in the realm of darkness, and from the punishment we would incur due to our past, present and future sins. When we were set apart in Christ Jesus, we underwent the washing of regeneration, where we were reborn from the state of being spiritually dead, to the state of being made eternally alive, together with Christ.

This action of grace and redemption was in accordance with God's purpose and plan of gracious redemption formulated before the foundation of the world.

 

[Van]

If we consider 2 Peter 1:3, we find that God set us apart for His glory and perfect purpose. When we repent and believe, we bring glory to God. Recall that the ministry of reconciliation includes declaring God's excellencies including His offer of peace and forgiveness.

 

[Van]

Martin mentioned the Greek word "Phoneo" in one of his posts, but I was not able to identify any verse where the word appeared. Subsequently, I found the Stong's number (G5455) and see that the word is translated by the NASB into (1) call, (2) calls, (3) calling, (4) called and (5) call out a total of about 25 times.

The list of different Greek words all translated to a form of call in the NASB is more than 10. I shutter to think how many might be used in the KJV or NIV.

And the range of differing contextual meaning is mind boggling. In one group we have invite or summon, or set apart spiritually. In another we have profess, designate, and name. In yet another we have call to, exclaim, address verbally. And we have Greek words translated in a form of call, that mean recall or remember, admonish, or refer to vocation such as slave or the ministry of reconciliation. And I must not leave out a key foundational usage, to call upon the Lord. This does not mean our profession of faith. It refers to God's positive assessment of our full blown faith in God for our salvation. It has nothing to do with superficially "asking for salvation."

If you were not confused by using a form of call to refer to at least 10 different things, you are an amazing student of scripture.