Consider Jack and Joe - who is worse?

[psalms109:31]

God doesn't have to save anyone or drag no one to His Son He draws us with lovingkindnees not drag us. If man doesn't' want to come He leaves them to them selves. He said follow me not I will drag you. I praise God for Him chosing an elect to spread the gospel and whosoever believes will be included when they hear the Gospel of their salvation having belIeved. Without the Elect doing what Christ sent them out to do no one would be saved.

Dragged is a wrong translation for that verse.

 

[Jon-Marc]

The question is not who is more deserving of hell, but who is deserving of heaven--which is absolutely NO one.

As was stated, we are not born "enemies of God", but we become that way by our sinful lives. It's not a matter of who is the most sinful, "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23

 

[Bronconagurski]

God doesn't have to save anyone or drag no one to His Son He draws us with lovingkindnees not drag us. If man doesn't' want to come He leaves them to them selves. He said follow me not I will drag you. I praise God for Him chosing an elect to spread the gospel and whosoever believes will be included when they hear the Gospel of their salvation having belIeved. Without the Elect doing what Christ sent them out to do no one would be saved.

Dragged is a wrong translation for that verse.

I don't think so.


draw
   [draw] Show IPA verb, drew, drawn, draw·ing, noun

verb (used with object)
1.
to cause to move in a particular direction by or as if by a pulling force; pull; drag (often followed by along, away, in, out, or off ).

 

[Skandelon]

You're not asking which is true, you're asking which one is more palatable to the carnal mind.

Just because our view is more 'palatable' to any mind (regenerated or not), doesn't make it less likely to be true. That dodges the point. The point is that many Calvinists attempt to claim that OUR view holds mankind to be better than than are (a 'higher view of man'), when in fact this comparison shows that to be a false claim. Our view paints man in a much worse light and God in a much better light, while your view paints man in the better light and God in the worse light. Yet, you all continue to accuse us of painting mankind in a better light. Your view is not 'palatable' to the Christian mind (by even the testimony of many CAlvinists who only come to believe your dogma after being convinced) and the reason is that it paints God as less holy and gracious than he actually is.

Aaron, if you think less palatability is a badge of honor, go right ahead, but Satanism isn't real palatable either....Does that mean we should adopt it too? :laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

I don't think so.


draw
   [draw] Show IPA verb, drew, drawn, draw·ing, noun

verb (used with object)
1.
to cause to move in a particular direction by or as if by a pulling force; pull; drag (often followed by along, away, in, out, or off ).

We can play tennis but the truth, it isn't drag with lovingkindnees it is draw. Draw is the best word out of what that word means that fits with that scripture. The translators knew what he was doing.

 

[Skandelon]

Can be translated dragged. Here is every place in the N.T. the same word was used in the NASB:

John 6:44 (NASB)
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32 (NASB)
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

John 18:10 (NASB)
10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus.

John 21:6 (NASB)
6 And He said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find a catch." So they cast, and then they were not able to haul it in because of the great number of fish.

John 21:11 (NASB)
11 Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.

Acts 16:19 (NASB)
19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the market place before the authorities,

Acts 21:30 (NASB)
30 Then all the city was provoked, and the people rushed together, and taking hold of Paul they dragged him out of the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

James 2:6 (NASB)
6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Is it not the rich who oppress you and personally drag you into court?

I'm not sure how this argument helps Calvinists. Don't you all believe that regenerated men come to Christ willingly? So, why all the fuss about trying to prove God drags them? If you are attempting to prove the irresistibility of God's regenerative work to save believers, we will gladly concede. But then you'll have to concede that we are made alive (regenerated) through faith, not the other way around.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20:31​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God doesn't have to save anyone or drag no one to His Son He draws us with lovingkindnees not drag us. If man doesn't' want to come He leaves them to them selves. He said follow me not I will drag you. I praise God for Him chosing an elect to spread the gospel and whosoever believes will be included when they hear the Gospel of their salvation having belIeved. Without the Elect doing what Christ sent them out to do no one would be saved.

Dragged is a wrong translation for that verse.

Ive never experienced dragging (perhaps others have) but I know from personal experience that the HS does pursue you & in my case a long time until I understood that my greatest sin was my sin of unbelief. I was then ashamed & humbled .....and then very surprised that He would save a wretch like me (sound familiar ???) :thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

You still have neglected (or rather refused) to answer my question. In your opinion is it JUST to blame and condemn a newborn baby because he is born addicted to drugs because his mother used drugs?

The question, to be blunt, is stupid. Who is condemning the baby? Are you? I certainly am not! The one who condemned the child is the mother who indulged in crack while pregnant.

 

[OldRegular]

I find it impossible to believe you do not understand the point I am making. In your view, every man is born with a nature inherited from Adam that CAUSES him to sin. No man chooses this, we are born in this condition in your view.

That is the teaching of Scripture Winman. If you don't like it take it to the Lord in prayer. Perhaps you can get a "do over"! In the meantime while waiting for that "do over" you should meditate on the general condition of mankind as revealed to the Apostle Paul by God:

Romans 1:19-25
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

In this passage God through Paul does not talk of the total depravity of mankind. That is addressed in other Scripture. He, God, does show that all mankind will sin. You can blame it on a natural tendency to sin or whatever but God tells us just like it is!

It is exactly like a baby who is born addicted to crack cocaine or heroin because his mother used drugs while she was pregnant. Does any man hold this newborn child responsible and condemn him for his addiction?

I don't do you?

And saying you condemn no one is just a deflection, my question is to you and whether you would believe it just for any man to be condemned because he was BORN a sinner when he had no say or choice in the matter whatseover.

I am not asking you to condemn anyone, I am asking you whether this is JUST.

Is it?

I am not in the judging God business Winamn. I will leave that up to you. Because of my concern for you I will present the Scripture posted earlier:

Job 4:17. Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Job 9:2. I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

Romans 9:18-20
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

 

[psalms109:31]

This is simple as I see scrIptual drawn with loving kindness

b.To cause to move in a given direction or to a given position, as by leading: The teacher drew the children into the room to see the decorations.

Matthew 11:29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

He doesn't force us to take on His yoke

 

[OldRegular]

You are comparing earthly justice to God's justice. Of course we wouldn't condemn a baby for being addicted to the drugs his mother put in him, and neither does God. But everyone dies which proves that everyone is under the curse of death. Death comes because of sin. Did I personally eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil? Is it "just" that I have to die because of what Adam did? Yes it is....because God said so.
I have had unbelievers try to make this same argument with me many times. They give me the "God is not fair" speech. "Why should I be punished for Adam's sin?" The truth is that God has imputed Adam's sin onto us. The proof is in the fact that we die. If there were no sin in a newborn baby, then no babies would die. We are all in need of the blood of Christ, without exception because of the state of sin that we are born in.

Bless your heart Amy.G, You say so well in a sentence or two what some of us try to say in a page or so!

 

[Bronconagurski]

I'm not sure how this argument helps Calvinists. Don't you all believe that regenerated men come to Christ willingly? So, why all the fuss about trying to prove God drags them? If you are attempting to prove the irresistibility of God's regenerative work to save believers, we will gladly concede. But then you'll have to concede that we are made alive (regenerated) through faith, not the other way around.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. John 20:31​

Because we would not come willingly, period. I believe a little differently than some Calvinists, that's why I really don't like labels. God has to drag us toward Him or we wouldn't even consider it, and he does it with the gospel and the Holy Spirit. The difference between me and typical Calvinists, is that once enlightened and the process of being dragged has started, a man can still go into apostasy and reject Christ. I know people say that if you can choose to reject Christ, you can choose to accept Him, but I say not without God starting the process.

 

[psalms109:31]

No one will come on our own will. We can't even trust it. We most trust Jesus over our own will and say as Jesus not my will but your will be done. We have to deny our own will and this is done by the work of the Holy Spirit by the word of Spirit and life to our free agency.

 

[convicted1]

:thumbs::thumbs:

No one will come on our own will. We can't even trust it. We most trust Jesus over our own will and say as Jesus not my will but your will be done. We have to deny our own will and this is done by the work of the Holy Spirit by the word of Spirit and life to our free agency.

:thumbs::thumbs:

Another "outta the park" homer.....

 

[Iconoclast]

...and you know what I think of your message.

Yes...I know you do not understand it yet:thumbs:

However you are not being truthful with the sinner...sort of reminds me of this;
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.


We have authority to tell sinners that Jesus died to save sinners.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

the apostles did not tell sinners Christ died for you....no where is it to be found. They did not say God loves you. The love of God is found In Christ, not outside of Christ. God loves sinners in Christ...everyone who believes.

 

[Winman]

That is the teaching of Scripture Winman. If you don't like it take it to the Lord in prayer. Perhaps you can get a "do over"! In the meantime while waiting for that "do over" you should meditate on the general condition of mankind as revealed to the Apostle Paul by God:

Romans 1:19-25
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

In this passage God through Paul does not talk of the total depravity of mankind. That is addressed in other Scripture. He, God, does show that all mankind will sin. You can blame it on a natural tendency to sin or whatever but God tells us just like it is!

I have never denied that all men will sin, I have said that repeatedly.

Why would you post scripture that does not prove your position? (I am talking about the part of your quote I highlighted). Why wouldn't you post this supposed scripture that says man is born in a depraved condition that cannot possibly choose for Christ? You would win your argument right there, yet no Calvinist/Reformed EVER shows scripture that says this.

I don't do you?

I didn't think you would ever condemn a baby that is born addicted to drugs because his mother used drugs and the baby inherited this depraved condition, yet you believe God would condemn men for being born in a depraved condition inherited from Adam. Your own innate sense of justice tells you it is wrong to condemn a person for another person's sins, yet you believe that is what God does.

I am not in the judging God business Winamn. I will leave that up to you. Because of my concern for you I will present the Scripture posted earlier:

I am not asking you to judge God, I am asking you to judge your theology. Your own innate sense of right and wrong and justice tells you it is wrong to condemn someone for the sins another committed, yet your theology teaches this is what God does. I would seriously question such a theology.

 

[Iconoclast]

The drawing used in the verses show it was effectual...not how it is done.:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

Yes...I know you do not understand it yet:thumbs:

However you are not being truthful with the sinner...sort of reminds me of this;
14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.


We have authority to tell sinners that Jesus died to save sinners.


the apostles did not tell sinners Christ died for you....no where is it to be found. They did not say God loves you. The love of God is found In Christ, not outside of Christ. God loves sinners in Christ...everyone who believes.

What kind of nonsense is this? If Jesus died to save sinners, then he died to save everyone, because all men are sinners.

 

[psalms109:31]

The scripture teaches us who it is effectual to and who it is not.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

The scripture before Christ even prepares our way and what to do when the Lord comes.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.

These are the ones the Father has given to His Son and He is pleased to do. In Christ we was chosen simple and easy past, present, and future from alpha to omega

 

[Iconoclast]

What kind of nonsense is this? If Jesus died to save sinners, then he died to save everyone, because all men are sinners.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

The apostle Paul did not think it was nonsense...but gospel truth!

The only nonsense here is your statement....

God does not have to save any sinner. That he has elected to save a multitude of sinners is purely His mercy as none of us deserve it.
The bible has a teaching about election...those are the sinners God has chosen to save:thumbs: