Originally posted by AV:
"Is it even possible for you to give us an example of something lost in translation, when you must by definition (yours) lose something? In other words if it is lost how can you demonstrate (convey) that it was lost (unable to be conveyed) to us now in English, without conveying it in English? I would like some clarification please."
When the Bible says
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
For all have sinned is an accurate translation. No meaning is this. It is the same in the Greek, the KJV, and even the mv's. It is a basic truth that you will find in any Bible. However, in the rest of the verse, as accurately as the KJV may have translated "and come short of the glory of God," the meaning of the phrase in Greek is not perfectly portrayed in English, no matter what version you use. "Coming short of the glory of God" has the sense of missing the mark. When one sins they have missed the mark that God has set (His glory). They have fallen short of that mark. They have missed it. They have sinned. There is meaning that is lost in translation. It cannot be perfectly translated. Meaning is always lost in translation--that is, in going from one translation to another. Obviously we can communicate with each other from different linguistic backgrounds so no here is saying "All" meaning is lost. There is not so much meaning that is lost that any doctrine is greatly affected. But meaning is lost in that one's understanding of the Bible is affected. Numerous examples of this have been given in the past. Definitions of words such as "unicorn," "baptism." "church," etc.
If that is the case you only demonstrated that they can be conveyed in English. I am seeking for detail related to your claim that something is always lost. Is it even possible to demonstrate something lost in translation without translating it and destroying the claim that you always lose something?
I realize this isn't directed to me. But I think you are misunderstanding what is being said. "Something is always lost" generally speaking. I gave you a good example. I also gave you another example (on page one) with Paul quoting Isa.28:11,12 in 1Cor.14:21. Was something lost? Absolutely! The quote was partial. It wasn't accurate. Things were changed within the quote, and yet the quote (as it was quoted) was inspired inspite of all of the changes, simply because it is recorded in the New Testament. It is the New Testament that is inspired in this case, not Paul's rendition of the Old. In the same way, I quote the Bible as my authority, not my explanation of what the Bible says.
The bible transcends culture and history by design of God, so I don't think it is appropriate to try and constrain his words with superficial reasons about language barriers. The bible is to be taken as a unit. If you study to show yourself approved, and search the scriptures as they are designed you will save yourself from such trivialities. For example someone earlier complained about the KJV rendering of Luke 14:26 'hate'. If they studied the bible as a unit not from personal private interpretation they would have located Genesis 29:30-31 and perhaps have had a different perspective
It has been amply demonstrated that the culture is so intrically tied to the language that without going back to the language there are many things that would be impossible for the average reader (KJVO especially) to understand. Let me ask you (at this Christmas season) What was happening when:
Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that
all the world should be taxed.
--And you know the rest of the story--why Mary and Joseph ended up in Bethlehem, and then in a stable. But why? For the reason of taxation. That is what the KJV says. But that is not what the Greek actually conveys. It wasn't a tax at all. It was a census that was being taken.
Luke 2:1-2 But it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus, that
a census should be made of all the habitable world.
The census itself first took place when Cyrenius had the government of Syria. (DARBY)
Most people overlook this fact entirely as their little children recite the "Christmas story" from the KJV and enact it in a play, portaying the taxation of Mary and Joseph. There was no tax. But then how would you know that if you never went to the Greek? There is an obvious loss of meaning in translation, if not here an obvious error in translation. How important is it, to check the original source and not to confine oneself to a translation that is not inspired, and cannot be infallible.
And finally you completely avoided this question:
"when the New testament quotes the Old testament, is this an example of an infallible translation that defied your law and lost nothing in the translation?"
Thanks for your clarification,
AV
Whatever is quoted from the Old Testament is inspired (in the original Greek Manuscript) simply because it is in the original Greek manuscript, and for no other reason. Meaning is often lost in translation (as I have poinnted out to you in 1Cor.14:21). That is a now a moot point when considering the New Testament, for all that is recorded in the New Testament is inspired.
In the New Testament:
Paul quotes from various prophets.
Paul quotes from a Greek poet.
Paul quotes from a Cretian philosopher.
Jude quotes from an uninspired apocryphal book, the Book of Enoch.
None of the original sources (apart from the OT Prophets): Greek poetry, Cretian philosopy, or the Book of Enoch are inspired works. But God inspired those portions of that which was quoted once it was recorded as Scripture.
Here are two important things to consider:
1. Here is the traditional definition of "inspiration" which was never really challenged until just recently when the KJVO movement came along.
"Inspiration is that extraordinary supernatural influence exerted by the Holy Ghost on the writers of Our Sacred Books, in which their words were rendered also the words of God, and therefore, perfectly infallible." (Benjamin Warfield, Inspiration and Authority, p. 420)
Notice in this definition that it is the influence of the Holy Spirit on the
writers of Our Sacred Books not the translators. It has never been disputed that only the original manuscripts are the inspired Scriptures.
2. But inspiration is different than "Preservation."
God has promised to preserve his Word. What God did not tell us is how he would preserve His Word and we have no right to presume upon God that we know better than He on how He has preserved His Word. How arrogant of man to say to God "Thank you for presrving your word in the KJVO." You don't know that. It is as arrogant as saying: "Thank you Lord for lying to me." The simple fact is that God never said to anyone of us HOW he has preserved His Word; he only promised that he would preserve it. Personally, to even think that he would preserve it in a translation is a bigoted and arrogant view that excludes 90% of the world's population.
God has preserved His Word. It is only natural to assume that it is preserved in the original languages that it can be translated (as accurately as is humanly possible) into every language of every nation, which is a part of the great commission (teaching them all things).
DHK