Oh but I believe it has.
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Continuing the eschatology
- Thread starter prophecy70
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Oh but I believe it has.
Don't be silly. Try to stay serious.
You know full "the moon turning to blood' will be its APPEARANCE, same as has been seen during lunar eclipses. Many ancient people didn't know any better.
And I'm sure you can see from Scripture that both the beast from the sea & the beast from the earth do things only a man can do.
I believe you're quite-intelligent enough to know about descriptive metaphors. For example, Hitler is often described as a "monster, but we know he was a man, same as we. But his ACTS were "monstrous". Same for the 'beasts". They'll be men, who will do "beastly" things.
All from this passage?
Revelations 20 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, nholding in his hand the key to othe bottomless pit1 and a great chain. pthe dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and qbound him for a thousand years, othe pit, and shut it and rsealed it over him, so that she might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
tthrones, and useated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw vthe souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those wwho had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. xThey came to life and yreigned with Christ for a thousand years. zBlessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such athe second death has no power, but they will be bpriests of God and of Christ, and they cwill reign with him for a thousand years.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Rev 20- Author John, Written around Ad 68Better?- Thats meant to be a joke, Not another define star moment.
Show me some statements of Polycarp's premillennialism. Please, asking nicely.
I honestly apologize. I will cite sources.
You are not my coach, teacher, or anything above me, but a Brother in Christ. If I were a Non christian, your disposition on the matter, your repetitive "My degree, stop reading Junk, Your here to debate, Millennial Problem" Would really Turn me off towards Christianity. Im sorry If that bothers you, But I'm being Honest with you. You may of liked "tough love" But when I grew up, my father grounded me from the internet if I questioned the KJV bible and Futurism saying it was from the devil. I need a Friend, not a Father, I rarely talk to him (not because of the futurism,because what he said about the bible was true and nothing but the truth and why? Because he said so). unless I want something or I go home to visit. ( I know its terrible). So far As a futurist and reading all the books he has, I have not found one to be credible, All of them start with a preconceived idea in my opinion. And they all pretty much try to date set, last days last days, 1988, antichrist is probably living now....and so on. Lindsey Macarthur Walvoord Lahaye (the left behind series are still good Fiction movies though), all sound like Im reading starwars instead of the bible. Talks of aircraft carriers and Tomahawk missiles, helicopters as locusts. I don't believe John seen any of this no more then he seen Godzilla destroy Japan.
Im not going through a rebellion stage of futurism, I just find the Creditability of the explanations of preterism (at least with the Olivet discourse to be a lot more believable). Im actually watching a Debate right now. Gary Demar and Thomas Ice. I don't get how Ice, says Luke is about the Destruction of the Temple but Matthew is about the end of the world. Jesus only gave one discourse they are parallel passages, they say the same thing, in different words, same as What was written on Jesus's Cross, they all say different things in each Gospel.
Matthew 24
15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation wspoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in xthe holy place (ylet the reader understand),then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains zLet the one who is on athe housetop not go down to take what is in his house, balas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! cgreat tribulation, dsuch as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. ethe sake of the elect those days will be cut short. fThen if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. gfalse christs and hfalse prophets will arise and iperform great signs and wonders, hso as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. jI have told you beforehand. khe is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. lFor as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be mthe coming of the Son of Man. nWherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
Luke 21
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
And obviously, the time of the gentiles is still going on. Most new Christians are gentiles. Parts of jerusalem are occupied by gentiles. And there are constant parades of gentiles coming & going from Jerusalem - both the Moslems visiting their holy sites there, and Christians visiting the Christian shrines there, as well as many tourists from many nations.
Now, there were several months between the sieges of J by the Romans, first by vespasian, then by Titus, when the city was taken. People had plenty of time to flee, not with the urgency Jesus warned about. So, this must be for yet another attack against J, most-likely by the Gog-Magog army.
prophecy70
Active Member
So the moon turning to blood in appearance has never happened before?
Im not trying to be silly, Im trying to figure out what your key to literalism is.
So how do you explain this? Im asking seriously How?
Ezekiel 32:7-8
7 And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.
8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord God.
Amos 8:9
"In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight.
Isaiah 34:4-5
4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.
5 “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven;
Indeed it shall come down on Edom,
And on the people of My curse, for judgment.
was the Man of Sin literal? Will Jesus second coming be physical and literal? Will there be literal thrones? Even metaphors and symbolic passages refer to a real lietral truth many times!
prophecy70
Active Member
People did have time to flee, just like it says, but who fled?
The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"
— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3
an estimated 1.1 million Jews was said to die. So who didn't flee?
If this was a global event in Matthew 24, whats it matter if you fled to the mountains anyways? You wouldn't hide from modern weapons in the mountains. And whats it matter if it was a sabbath days journey, we have cars now.
prophecy70
Active Member
I dont see how that is relevant to that question I asked Robycop3. Im not questioning my own view on this matter.
Jesus was answering His Apostles questions, as he foretold BOTh AD 70, and His second coming in the far future!
My advice would be for you to actually read the letter. Clement speaks of the Temple as if it was still standing and as the rites as still being performed. There are other indications in the letter.
Would you accuse Phillip Schaff of this "falsehood"? He is a well-respected Church historian who had to change his books when his view on the date of Revelation changed to the early one.
For the record, my view on an early date of Revelation came after much study. I was willing to go either way, but once I saw the flimsiness of evidence for the late date I abandoned that very view I had warmer argued for.
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Doc, that gent sometimes pretends not to understand metaphors, as if they're limited to English. He acts as if he can't tell literal from symbolic. I believe he's deliberately being pretend-obtuse at times.
Unless one embraces “replacement theology” thinking, which by evidence from both prophets and Apostles is inconsistent with even basic reading of scriptures, it is not possible to show Jeremiah as fulfilled.
The “house of Israel does not at this time meet the standard of prophecy fulfillment.
Even IF one were to consider Jeremiah fulfilled in the church, the gentle fellowship has even from the beginning never been described in terms Jeremiah states.
In what manner would anyone take Jeremiah as fulfilled?
prophecy70
Active Member
No actually i'm not. Stop making assumptions about my motives. My question was a simple, how do you explain these passages. That is all. Im curious on how you explain them.
Apostle John wrote 1John after AD 70, and he was still expecting a literal Second Coming yet to have happened, correct?
Yes, the angels present when He ascended said He will return in LIKE manner, not EXACT manner. He will simply DESCEND. Difference is, He will return in great glory and power. I tend to believe He will be seated upon a horse, as described in the Revelation.
A lotta emphasis has been placed on clouds at both His departure and return. When he ascended, He vanished into a cloud, as an aircraft does now. I believe once He was outta mens' sight, He instantly "teleported" to heaven. When He returns, He will appear SUDDENLY from a cloud. The antichrist will summon his army, which, thanx to modern tech, will arrive quickly, but Jesus will destroy it with His spoken word, and the antichrist, with his deputy, the false prophet, will be cast alive into the lake of fire, as prophesied.
I still am looking for my copy of Clement. Is the above quote from Clements first epistle or from the pseudo-Clement second epistle? Either way your point is pointless. If it is from the first then, of course, being written before the Parousia Clement would necessarily refer to it as a future event. If the second, well, that epistle is all over the map with,strange comments and such. Much later in time. And not from Clement.
I would take much of Eusebius as highly agenda driven accounts.
From my own reading, the presentation of evens he gives is suspect of inaccuracy.
prophecy70
Active Member
Finally someone giving an opinion and answering something instead of questioning my motive. How Robycop3 just anwser the question and not jump to conclusions about why i'm asking.
Yep! One's all I need.
They both mean the same thing. The Lord Jesus has come once; He's coming again, or returning, which means the same thing.
What coming is that? The one Paul tells the Thessalonians to ignore? Or the coming of the lawless one?
Because of sin and foolishness, I suppose. Don't worry about them; just listen to me.
No, seriously, God has already decided what He's going to do, and He hasn't asked my opinion, nor yours, I suspect. Hold your opinions loosely, but be prepared (Mark 13:32-37).[QUOTE
Off to play tennis ...[/QUOTE]
Enjoy!
Very easy to find, Sir!
Paul, in 2 Thess. 2. describes a "man of sin" who will sit in the temple & proclaim himself to be God. That's about as antichrist as one can get! (He's first mentioned in Daniel 9.)
Then, there's Rev. 13, describing both this same man and his deputy, a miracle-working false prophet.
Since the "abomination of desolation" didn't occur in the 2nd temple, there will hafta be a 3rd one.
As for the trib, Jesus prophesied it in Matt. 24, saying if it weren't cut short, no flesh(man or animal) would survive. I believe its allotted time is 3.5 years, but Jesus will cut it short before all that time elapses.
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