Contraception

That's what it all comes down to. There is NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT WHATSOEVER that remotely implies that birth control is a sin. None. This is one of those situations where everyone needs to be convinced in his own mind.

 

I have a good friend whose children were born 11 months apart because she thought that that "breastfeeding on demand" would supress ovulation.

 

Paul,

You keep talking about using birth control as selfish, but you don't realize that you sound like the most selfish person on this board in this thread, and the most prideful.

You pridefully brag that your children "aren't fat" and "aren't catered to", as if parents who don't want their children to suffer or to starve are beneath you.

You come across as not caring whether or not your children do without.

You don't care about the health risks numerous pregnancies involve to both the mother and the babies.

You don't care about the pain and discomfort that a woman goes through during pregnancy or delivery.

You don't care that your children will have less attention from their parents. In fact, you brag that you've pushed your parental responsibilities off onto your oldest children.

There are many ways of looking at everything.

Your way is self-inflated and selfish. You don't care about the children, you don't care about your wife, you don't care about health, financial or parenting issues. Just let you push up your chest, point at the litter you left the world and say, "I have active sperm!"

 

Paul -

Your method of birthcontrol may be closer to abortion than preventing fertilization.

Regarding fertility and breastfeed they say the following from an MD:

Suckling by the baby causes the mother's pituitary to release prolactin. It used to be thought that prolactin directly affected ovulation/fertility, but new research suggests that there is another hormone intermediate between prolactin and the ovaries. So that high levels of prolactin lead to either high or low levels of this other factor, which then affects fertility. Fertility is not an "either/or" sort of phenomenon. Post-partum, a woman does not ovulate for a while, even if she isn't breastfeeding.

The greatest level of suppression is not ovulating, but as your prolactin levels go up, your fertility will gradually return. First you will ovulate, but not have the proper hormone levels for fertilization; then you will ovulate and fertilization may occur, but you still may not have the proper hormone levels for implantation; finally, you may ovulate, be fertilized, and implant, but not have the proper hormone levels for continuing the pregnancy, so you have a very early miscarriage, probably along the lines of minutes or hours after implantation, so you wouldn't know you had been pregnant.

It is also possible to ovulate without having the right hormonal levels in the right combinations for the uterus to have been preparing for implantation, so yes, it is possible to ovulate without menstruating.

---
From "Breast Feeding and Fertility"

The age-old myth: "you can’t get pregnant when you are nursing" is simply not true.

 

That's what it all comes down to. There is NO SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT WHATSOEVER that remotely implies that birth control is a sin. None. This is one of those situations where everyone needs to be convinced in his own mind. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactally. I have yet to see anyone show me that contraception is a sin. All I get is a bunch of running around.

Since the Bible is silent, this is a matter between each persons conscience and God. It is impossible to be dogamtic on this issue.

 

Blessings to you. My sister's wife is in the same position. They started the testing process, then decided not to go through with it for the same reasons who articulated.

You are trusting God and that is commendable.

Again, May God's richest blessings be upon you.

 

I care very much. Your responses show how much like the world you really think.

I care that my children value God more than things.

I care that my children know that God comes first, in my life, and in their lives.

I care that my children don't become conceited and think that the world revolves around them.

I care that my children learn what is good and healthy to eat, and not what is quick and easy.

I care that my children learn responsibility and compassion for others, including their own siblings.

I care that my children are free to grow and prosper as quickly or slowly as God has gifted them.

I care that my children know that Mom and Dad love each other and have put the needs of the other partner before their own.

I care that my children know that, though they are loved, they don't come before God or spouse.

I care that my children learn how to thihk biblically and not just adopt the ways of this world.

Instead of discussing this issue fairly and rationally, some would prefer to attack, accuse others of being "righteous," proud, arrogant, etc.

Typical childish behavior.

 

You know when a woman ovulates, because her period will begin again.

My wife had her period, once or twice, and then got pregant.

Our children are 18, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 2.

BTW, your previous post was very offensive. God has blessed me both in ministry and in secular work. He has blessed me with children. He has blessed me with a wonderful spouse. Your attack was in very poor taste and in direct contradiction to the blessings God has bestowed upon me and my family.

BTW, Financially I am very secure, through hard work and God's goodness. Health wise, my wife and I and children are in perfect health, through organic food and fresh produce and the absence of hormones, additives, food coloring, pesticides, etc. And spiritually, we have devotions, attend church, serve God and others, and have children that obey and are seeking to please God with their lives.

I thank God for his mercy, grace, and kindness to me. I don't deserve it, and it breaks my heart to see other families ignore God, the Bible, the mind of Christ, and live like the world with a veneer of Christianity. As a pastor, I see it all.

 

"You know when a woman ovulates, because her period will begin again."

NOT always true.

In fact, my sister is a woman who gave birth twice during periods of her life when she was not having menses.

Out of curiosity - may I ask how old you and your wife are? Or - more to the point. How old will both of you be when that two year old graduates?

In regards offending you. I do apologize, and I don't want my next words to appear as an attempt to justify hurting you.

But you need to know two things:

1) I really do believe what I said in regards to how you come across on the board. You sound like you don't care what suffering is caused by having a large family, or who suffers.

2) You "threw the first rock" when you said that people who use birthcontrol consider children to be burdens instead of blessings.

You were ~way~ out of line with that comment.

As to your financial condition - I'm THRILLED that you are thriving financially and that you are able to provide financially for your large family. That does not give you the right to condemn those who are not thriving financially for wanting to manage their family in a manner that will provide for the exisiting members of the family.

As to my comments about pride. How can you NOT see your own arrogance when you say it breaks my heart to see other families ignore God, the Bible, the mind of Christ, and live like the world with a veneer of Christianity. As a pastor, I see it all.

 

TexasSky,

You simply took #2 out of context. When people say they want only two children and they get around to telling you why, the reason invariably is that children are a financial and emotional burden. You then took that specific statement out of context and applied it to all people who use birth control.

I've never condemned others who aren't thriving financially. I've never condemned others who use birth control. I have cautioned others that a primary motivating factor in the use of birth control is selfishness. This is proven both historically (by the proponents of birth control) and today, by the unthinking application of this methodology.

And now it is pride to have a broken heart for the lost who think they are ok with God. When Jesus wept for Jerusalem, he was broken hearted for his people. You might want to rethink your last statement.

TexasSky, I'm sorry that you perceive my comments to be proud and arrogant. But your perception may have more to do with your own heart than my poor attempt at explaining the historical record of birth control.

 

I've asked the 'how old will you be' question before and never saw an answer.

Jim and I have been married almost 35 years. I'm quite thrilled we don't have 30 children.

I will admit that some families are selfish. Within our own family, one has chosen to only have one child because the wife WAS an only child and the husband WISHED he'd been an only child. Stuff and brand name clothes are quite important and they want to be able to give that one child anything and everything.

My ten year old is thrilled with hand me downs and consignment shop clothing which is what we can afford at this point in our lives.

Diane
Mother to 4 blessings

 

You told me you have a ministry and you have financial security.

What do you say to those families who DON'T have that? Have you ever worked with them? Have you ever seen a child that can't think in school because they are so hungry all they can think about it the pain of that hunger? I have.

Have you ever seen a man and woman so worn out and physically exhausted from working three or four jobs so they can provide shelter for their family that they literally fall into bed in tears, begging God to take them to heaven so they can escape the life they have? I have.

Have you ever had a child crawl into your lap and tell you that they feel invisible and unloved because no one has time for them? I have.

Have you helped a family that lost its home try to find shelter? I have.
Have you done it enough to know that how much harder it is to place a family the size of yours than it is to place a family of four? I have.

Not every homeless person in the world is "not a Christian".

I have two children. They never had a lot of financial things in life because their parents didn't do the kind of work that makes you rich. We did the kind of work that takes care of the people society throws away and doesn't want, and that doesn't pay well.

With both parents working, both parents college educated, our combined family gross income for most of the kids' growing up years was just a little over $32,000.00. With that we were able to provide a house, transportation, food, school supplies, heat in the winter and cooling in the summer, and clothing. It was sometimes second-hand clothing, but it was there.

The thing is - compared to about 60% of our city - we were RICH.

There were kids who didn't have school supplies.
There were kids who didn't have food money, so the school "provided lunch for them." A peanut butter sandwich on white bread (no jelly) and a kid's carton of milk - EVERY SINGLE DAY of the school year, and for SOME kids that was the ONLY meal they got.

I can't tell you how many times we wrote personal checks for someone's rent, or medical bills, or replaced their broken appliances, or sent them food out of our cupboard so that their kids would have a home or shots or food.

And its REALLY easy to say, "Well, they just aren't good enough Christians."

One young man was a Church Youth Minister. He and his beautiful wife were getting along well until their first child came in as a surprise. They were thrilled. They praised God. They agreed a child needs a mother, and childcare would have taken most of the wife's salary so she quit work.

Then their property taxes went up, and the insurance on the property went up, and the electricity and water went up, and they needed diapers and car seats and baby clothing, and they had medical bills from the birth. And the next thing you knew they were not able to do it all. They lost their home, and a week later - they found out they were blessed with "another baby." And that Youth Minister cried and cried and cried because he felt like a failure in his duty as a husband.

The church he worked at "wanted" to help, but "money was tight", and "the economy was bad." He had his "Friends of Job" too.

People who criticized him for dedicating his life to God. People who said he must have done something to cause God to do this to him and his children.

Evenutally other churches of like faith and order stepped up to help. He went from helping teach the youth of the city about God to mowing lawns for a living. His wife was willing to go back to work, but she was pregnant and she had little bitty children. The childcare would have destroyed her financially even if she found a job.

Now - with a lot of help from Christians who cared more than the church he was working for cared - they got a little one-bedroom house, and food for the babies, and things. They're "making it" now.

But who are YOU to condemn this man and his wife if they decide NOT to have a fourth child????

(And yes - it is a true story, and yes, the young man is a Baptist Youth Minister.)

 

There you go with the accusations of "condemnation" again.

And there you go "contextualizing" the general issue under discussion to specific cases, again!

It is clear that you have gone from an intellectual discussion to emotional denunciation.

I trust that God will bless you richly as you endeavor to serve him among the poor and destitute.

 

A breastfeeding lady in my church who just found out she was pregnant. How's that for experience? It may suppress it for up to 15 months, but that is no guarantee. It is not a good method to use as birth control. It is like using the rhythm method, and you know what they call people who use the rhythm method.

 

Pastor Larry, I've shared several times that I breast fed my 3 birth children with NO supplemental feeding, no cereals, no foods and my 2nd and 3rd are 15 months apart. I never had menses before that 3rd pregnancy. I went 36 months without a cycle but my husband felt led to have a vasectomy and I submitted to his decision.

(Now they slept in their own beds and I didn't walk around with a baby latched on 24 hours a day either.)

 

Paul,

You said, "I'm sorry you perceive my comments to be proud and arrogant."

I've gone through this thread, and created a word file of your words to various members of this board. Seeing them, and I by no means pulled ALL of them, I'm amazed the MODS didn't shut you down. The few bolds are mine, not yours.

Now - I ask you to read your OWN words and then tell us all do you ~really~ think God approves of how you spoke to fellow Christians?
And do you REALLY think you were NOT prideful and arrogant?
-----

"You argue like an emotionally stunted person."

"Most Christians are too selfish to trust God is this area, and under the guise of "responsibility" they snicker at those who do trust God."

"You only show your own immaturity."

"I'm arguing that the attitude or motivation behind the use of birth control is often wrong."

"Ask those who only have two and only want two, why that is. Invariably, it comes down to viewing children as an expense that they can't afford. That is, children are a burdern and not a blessing."

"I didn't say that couples who limit their families view "their" children as a burden.
They do, however, view additional children as a burden."

"From your childish reaction I assume that you have some of these attitudes."

"For those who claim to be responsible in using birth control and laugh at those who don't, is God so small that he can't plan your reproductive life and bless you with just the children he wants you to have?"

"Same childish attitude and argument."

"Everyone in the 1930s knew that the only reason birth control was being used was for selfish reasons. The eugencists were appalled that the high grade, "superior" folks were using birth control and limiting their family sizes while the low grade, "inferior" folks (80% of the population) were not using birth control."

"Your emotional reaction suggests that I'm hitting to close to home for you."

"We would rather obey Margaret Sanger than the Bible. The truth is, birth control has led us down the road to abortion. We decide when a baby is wanted and when birth control (or the lack of it) fails, we terminate the unwanted pregnancy."

"The facts are that children are a blessing from God and most Christian families limit the size of their families for selfish, self-centered reasons."

"The argument about birth control isn't about population explosion and you know it. It's about sinful, selfish desires of the heart and a flagrant disregard for God, his purpose for our lives, and biblical rearing of children. Since our children are the "gods" of our homes as exemplified by the term "soccer mom," we most certainly must limit the size of our families. After all, how many "gods" can one man or woman be expected to serve?"

"But why don't you discuss the real reason Christians in America are using birth control?"

"I have never said that birth control per se was a sin. I do think that the attitude behind its use is, for the vast majority, selfishness."

"I've watched how most families raise their children. They are a wreck with just two kids!"

"We wouldn't give them up for our own selfish desires for all of the money in the world.

[ July 22, 2005, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]

 

Amen Pastor Larry.

 

A breastfeeding lady in my church who just found out she was pregnant. How's that for experience? It may suppress it for up to 15 months, but that is no guarantee. It is not a good method to use as birth control. It is like using the rhythm method, and you know what they call people who use the rhythm method.

Larry, sometimes you amaze me with how inciteful you are, and sometimes I'm disappointed. This is one of those disappointing times.

I never said that "breastfeeding on demand" should be used as a birth control method. Only that "on average" women who breastfeed on demand find that ovulation is suppressed for 15 months.

If you do any kind of research at all, the "vast majority" do in fact use birth control for selfish and self-centered reasons. This was true historically, and it is true today.

Folks aren't getting defensive when they cry "righteous", and "arrogant", and "proud?" And then you bring up my "defensiveness" in other threads. What does another thread have to do with this thread and the "defensiveness" of those who call others' names because he or she has pointed out the historical nature and attitude behind the use of birth control?

Finally, Larry, I've never made the statement once that we ought to have as many children as we can. So your comment about wives is silly and has nothing to do with my comments on this thread.

Like I said, sometimes you amaze me and sometimes you disappoint.

One thing, though, if I offend someone or it's perceived by someone that I've been offensive, I do try to apologize. I wonder if you might try that in your last post to me?

 

Everyone of those comments in context was appropriate. When someone resorts to name calling and outlandishly rediculous statements meant to attack another person's credibility, I will point it out.

If you want to act like a child, I will call you on it.

What you highlighted in bold are undisputed facts, historically and socially.

Why don't you now go back and condense all of the rediculous and irrational comments that other people have made on this board. Perhaps you can start with yours?

 

No one who has time to post 1,600 messages to a message board in just three months should consider themselves poor or even middle class. Only the very rich* have that kind of time.

*Rich in terms of the world population.