Contraception

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Jeffrey H:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Paul33:


For some reason, when America was still governed by a Christian worldview, birth control was seen to be a sin. Hmmm.

Today it isn't. Hmmm.

The Bible isn't as silent as you think, ....

I started this thread with these thoughts and questions in mind. Can you tell me where the Bible is not silent about it? If birth control is not prohibited explicitly by Scripture, then show me where it's prohibited by the inference of Scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]There are no specific references, unless one counts the "spilling of seed" struck down by God story in Genesis.

But the "tone" of the Bible is clearly pro-birth.

Story after story in the Bible concerning being barren is looked upon as a curse.

Children are a blessing.

For all of the self-righteous condemnation against those who "trust" God, and for all of the accusations of "not using your brain," the Bible is still on the side of conception!

Ask those who only have two and only want two, why that is. Invariably, it comes down to viewing children as an expense that they can't afford.

That is, children are a burdern and not a blessing.

That is anti-biblical and has nothing to do with birth control. Birth control is simply the mechanism folks use to carry out their attitude towards children.

 

[TexasSky]

Paul33 -

You have absolutely NO RIGHT to say that people who limit their families view their children as a burden! That is a LIE!

Wanting to know that you have enough time to devote to your spouse, your church and the children God gives you is NOT sinful, and it does NOT mean that you view your children as a burden!!

 

[Magnetic Poles]

TexasSky, for once we are in agreement on something!

 

[Paul33]

TexasSky,

I didn't say that couples who limit their families view "their" children as a burden.

They do, however, view additional children as a burden.

Your emotional reaction suggests that I'm hitting to close to home for you.

I stand by my statement. "Ask those who only have two and only want two, why that is. Invariably, it comes down to viewing children as an expense that they can't afford" (either financially or emotionally).

I think you have just proven my point.

 

[Petrel]

It's a fact that no one has unlimited financial and emotional resources.

And you never replied to my earlier post. . .

I personally don't mind if Christians use contraceptives to delay pregnancy. We use them because neither of us are done with our educations yet. I plan to have 3-4 children. Does that make me half as righteous as you since you currently have 8? What if we managed to have three kids and then a set of quintuplets? [Eek!] Would we then be equally righteous, in spite of not having the kids as soon as we might have?

But first tell me when you would consider the earth to be full, as this is something that no one ever seems to consider. *twiddles thumbs waiting*

Since children are a blessing and financial and emotional considerations should not come into the decision, why should women try to space childbearing by nursing? That's postponing blessing just as much as using condoms does. And why aren't you adopting as many kids as you can get your hands on?

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by Paul33:
TexasSky,

I didn't say that couples who limit their families view "their" children as a burden.

They do, however, view additional children as a burden.

Your emotional reaction suggests that I'm hitting to close to home for you.

I stand by my statement. "Ask those who only have two and only want two, why that is. Invariably, it comes down to viewing children as an expense that they can't afford" (either financially or emotionally).

I think you have just proven my point.

AMEN.

So have the others on this thread. Their "counter-points" are pointless. Just proving they are not about what the Bible teaches.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Petrel:
It's a fact that no one has unlimited financial and emotional resources.

And you never replied to my earlier post. . .

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I personally don't mind if Christians use contraceptives to delay pregnancy. We use them because neither of us are done with our educations yet. I plan to have 3-4 children. Does that make me half as righteous as you since you currently have 8? What if we managed to have three kids and then a set of quintuplets? [Eek!] Would we then be equally righteous, in spite of not having the kids as soon as we might have?

But first tell me when you would consider the earth to be full, as this is something that no one ever seems to consider. *twiddles thumbs waiting*

Since children are a blessing and financial and emotional considerations should not come into the decision, why should women try to space childbearing by nursing? That's postponing blessing just as much as using condoms does. And why aren't you adopting as many kids as you can get your hands on? </font>[/QUOTE]You argue like an emotionally stunted person.

Nursing is God's way for caring for a baby. If women did nurse the way God intended, ovulation would cease for approximately 15 months.

How many children a person has is up to God. Therefore, the number doesn't have anything to do with how righteous a person is.

How do we know when the world is too full? That's not our problem, is it. God said be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. We're not there yet!

I've never said that "birth control" per se is wrong. I'm arguing that the attitude or motivation behind the use of birth control is often wrong.

From your childish reaction I assume that you have some of these attitudes.

 

[Johnv]

I've had a vasectory. How long am I allowed to have it until I'm hellbound, or fall from God's grace.

 

[Petrel]

Originally posted by Paul33:
From your childish reaction I assume that you have some of these attitudes.

From your constant arrogant and self-righteous replies to everyone across this board, I conclude continuing to try to talk to you is unlikely to be edifying for either of us, and am henceforth ignoring you.

Johnv, you're in trouble because you're supposed to continue reproducing until your wife drops dead of exhaustion and we're all packed in like sardines and eating Soylent Green.

 

[yeshua4me2]

soylent green....IT'S PEOPLE...IT'S PEOPLE

i have been a christian a little over seven years now, and had no idea this was such a hot topic. are we talking about artificial birth control or just no sex during ovulation (which is not had to figure out).
i think contraception is an un-necessary risk. i MADE my wife quit the pill after talking to a pharmasist about what the pill does. most DO NOT PREVENT the sperm from reaching and firtilizing the egg, but rather stop the blastocyst (i think that is the right word) from attaching to the uterin wall. essentially it's an abortion he told me, thus he sold no internally taken birth control. he recommended spermacide, and made a case that sperm we not alive and this was ok ethically.

has anyone else heard anything like this?

thankyou and God Bless

 

[Petrel]

Yes, I posted back some pages ago that hormonal contraceptives work primarily by preventing ovulation, but that on rare occasions ovulation may occur, and then rarely conception may occur, and then the thickened lining of the uterus may prevent implantation.

I wouldn't say that sperm is not alive, but it's not an individual person either, so I don't see any problem with killing it!

There are other barrier methods (methods that simply block sperm) that you could use in conjunction with spermicide. Spermicide alone has a pretty high failure rate.

I thought myself that postponing pregnancy by the use of contraceptives wasn't very controversial except in Catholic circles, but it appears that some Baptists have the same opinions.

I don't think we've discussed Natural Family Planning and other methods that simply avoid ovulation, but I'm sure that would be considered selfish as well by the anti-contraceptive contingent because the principle (postponing pregnancy) is the same.

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Johnv:
I've had a vasectory. How long am I allowed to have it until I'm hellbound, or fall from God's grace.

Same childish attitude and argument.

You will answer to God for what you do the same as everyone else.

Your reason and motivation for a vasectomy will bring about your own judgment. If it is in line with God's revealed revelation, then you will have nothing to worry about, will you?

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Petrel:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Paul33:
From your childish reaction I assume that you have some of these attitudes.

From your constant arrogant and self-righteous replies to everyone across this board, I conclude continuing to try to talk to you is unlikely to be edifying for either of us, and am henceforth ignoring you.

Johnv, you're in trouble because you're supposed to continue reproducing until your wife drops dead of exhaustion and we're all packed in like sardines and eating Soylent Green.

</font>[/QUOTE]More of the same.

Where have I once said that a person is to keep having children until one's wife drops dead?

You laugh and mock. You only show your own immaturity.

 

[Pastor Larry]

This thread has gone on long enough to see that the Bible does not forbid birth control. Any attempts to make it do so are the misuse of Scripture. Using birth control may be rooted in sinful selfish desires. It may be rooted in a desire to please God.

Sure, children are a blessing. So are wives. Should we have as many of those as we can get? Should we get them as soon as his humanly possible, or should we wait until the proper time? Money is a blessing too. Should we get as much of that as possible? You see, the "blessing" argument doesn't work for all things that are a blessing of God. Some blessings aren't meant to have as many as possible.

It is unwise counsel to say that emotions and finances play no role in the choice about children, as someone did. Both play an important part. One of the greatest problems in society is that emotionally immature people are bringing children into the world. Most are doing so through sin (unwed pregnancies), but it is true about marriages as well.

A couple that is postponing children, or limiting children need to ask themselves why. They may not be sinning. In most cases. it would be inappropriate for anyone to tell them concretely that they are sinning. A couple needs to come to a decision together, taking all the biblical principles about families into consideration.

BTW, breast feeding does not prevent pregnancy.

 

[av1611jim]

This thread is obviously dead and going no-wheres-ville fast.

I am done.

really

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Paul33]

Larry,

Much of what you said is correct.

But breastfeeding on demand does indeed suppress ovulation. The average is 15 months. What is the basis for your statement? Mine is research and experience. My wife practiced breastfeeding and ovulation was suppressed for 15 months. How's that for experience.

Barrier methods of birth control are not in and of themselves sinful. The attitudes and motivations behind why ones uses birth control may be. I submit that for the vast majority of persons, birth control is used for selfish and self-centered reasons. To those who claim that they don't have selfish reasons for practicing birth control, what are they so defensive about? Again, I submit that the reason they are defensive is that they know deep down that financial reasons are playing too large a role in their decision making process.

You are right. No one can tell another concretely that they are sinning. We can't know the motivations of their hearts. But I think we can safely say that many use birth control without ever considering their motivations.

Larry, the wives statement was silly. But I agree with Jim, this whole thread is becoming silly.

 

[TaterTot]

"The average is 15 months. What is the basis for your statement? Mine is research and experience. My wife practiced breastfeeding and ovulation was suppressed for 15 months. How's that for experience."

LOL, you know we cant use experience as the absolute truth. I was prengnant 7 months after having my first child, an I was breastfeeding on demand as well. Hmmmmm.

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by TaterTot:
"The average is 15 months. What is the basis for your statement? Mine is research and experience. My wife practiced breastfeeding and ovulation was suppressed for 15 months. How's that for experience."

LOL, you know we cant use experience as the absolute truth. I was prengnant 7 months after having my first child, an I was breastfeeding on demand as well. Hmmmmm.

I know, that's why they call it an "average."

 

[Jeffrey H]

There are no specific references, unless one counts the "spilling of seed" struck down by God story in Genesis.

But the "tone" of the Bible is clearly pro-birth.

Story after story in the Bible concerning being barren is looked upon as a curse.

Children are a blessing.

For all of the self-righteous condemnation against those who "trust" God, and for all of the accusations of "not using your brain," the Bible is still on the side of conception!

Ask those who only have two and only want two, why that is. Invariably, it comes down to viewing children as an expense that they can't afford.

That is, children are a burdern and not a blessing.

That is anti-biblical and has nothing to do with birth control. Birth control is simply the mechanism folks use to carry out their attitude towards children.

Paul,

Children are an expense, but what a wonderful blessing they are. God provides for our needs including the children He give us. You still have not given me a compelling reason to stop using preventative methods. I agree, the Bible is pro-creation, but the same Bible has not prohibited me from using preventative methods. I have 3 children: ages 7,4, & 2. I'm 43 and my wife is 38. At our ages, we are not trying to have more children; we are preventing. God may other plans; and if He does, He will provide for our needs when He blesses us with more children.

Blessings,
Jeff

 

[Songbird]

Hmmm. interesting thread. While I agree that children are a blessing is it God's will for everyone to have them? If so, why are there childless couples (not by choice) --myself included.

My dh and I married late in life--our first and only marriage--except in the case of death of one of us--I pray that doesn't happen. We tried the natural way of conceiving but did not get pregnant. My dr. did a few tests (blood, byopsy), but said b/c of my age I may have to use clomid or have further testing to see what was preventing a pregnancy.

So, I'd like to pose another question. Do you think people in my case should pull out the stops to get pregnant--short of IVF--I can't get past the fact that there are fertilized eggs that aren't used and get disposed.

In our case, we chose not to go the way of more expensive, instrusive testing. I value my marriage too much to put the extra emotional strain as well as financial burden on my dh.

We know that God can work miracles and if its His will He will bring it about. But we had to come to terms that this may not be His plan for our lives. It wasn't easy and I may even experience some grieving especially after menopause --when it's no longer possible at all.

So, we're doing all we can to serve Him w/our energy and time. We're very involved w/the youth and younger children at our church--as well as the children in our families.

So, please don't let yourself become critical of those who don't have children or women who may use birth control pills for other medical reasons --like myself. I'm not saying anyone on this post is being critical. But I'd like to add to please be sensitive to those of us who may never have the joy of holding our children in our arms.

Blessings to all!