Contraception

Jim's got a point---I have friends who are Dairy Farmers and the government "buys" their milk---every now and then they'll get a letter from the USDA(or whoever)---and in the envelope will be a hefty check and a note that says

"Flush milk into ditch!!!"

I have Cotton Farmer friends who are penalized for planting too many acres. Every now and then they too, will get a notice in the mail to "disk under 20 acres" accompanied by a "buy out" check!!! ON and on we could go!! There IS no starvation---due to "not enough to go around" never will be---just stupid idiotic governments that can't control themselves.

 

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Pave the earth! I don't think the earth would be so appealing once every square foot not used for cultivation and livestock is covered with asphalt and buildings. I also think God would be annoyed at us wantonly destroying so many of the plants and animals that he made.

God told us to fill the earth, and it seems like after it's full we should cut back on the child-bearing to maintain the population. So how do we know when it's full?

 

Actually birth control seeks to prevent life, whereas abortion actually ends life.

IMO, the former is far more justifiable than the latter.

Preventing life in itself doesn't seem to be all that immoral. Is not a single person who decides not to marry preventing life on some level? </font>[/QUOTE]Birth control seeks to prevent "unwanted" life.
Abortion actually kills that "unwanted" life.

 

I don't want to sound morbid---but back in the late '30's there was a "land" problem in Germany. 80 million people packed in like a bunch of Sardines in a can!! Heir Fuhrer Adolph Hitler decides to expand "Lubensrum"(Living Room)---totally outside the will of God---he invades Poland---then the other lesser "peeon" nations---then he invades the "Mother of them all"---Russia!!---Storm Troopers blitzreig past Kiev and Minsk---then the stupid idiot(Hitler) sends out notices to German citizens that they could start applying for "farm land"---what a joke----and in a morbid way---God took care of Germany's problem with "lubensrum"----sandwiched them between two Allies!

 

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Pave the earth! I don't think the earth would be so appealing once every square foot not used for cultivation and livestock is covered with asphalt and buildings. I also think God would be annoyed at us wantonly destroying so many of the plants and animals that he made.

God told us to fill the earth, and it seems like after it's full we should cut back on the child-bearing to maintain the population. So how do we know when it's full? </font>[/QUOTE]The argument about birth control isn't about population explosion and you know it. It's about sinful, selfish desires of the heart and a flagrant disregard for God, his purpose for our lives, and biblical rearing of children.

Since our children are the "gods" of our homes as exemplified by the term "soccer mom," we most certainly must limit the size of our families. After all, how many "gods" can one man or woman be expected to serve?

 

I'm concerned the same thing may happen with over-populated China, especially as they've been selectively aborting girls. Sending a few million disconted young men off to invade some of the surrounding nations might seem like a good idea.

 

Uh-huh. And the question remains--when is the earth full? When the only things left alive on land are humans, wheat, soybeans, and chickens? I'm just taking your point-of-view to the logical conclusion.

 

Herr Hitler was practicing eugenics. The "superior race" must multiply. The progress of evolution demanded that the superior race must prosper and stamp out those who got in its way. Germany's expansionist agenda was not driven by poplulation explosion, it was driven by the ethic of evolution and the application of that ethic, eugenics.

 

The problem will fix itself if we do not prevent it. Pestilence, famine, war over limited resources, etc. will take care of it. I would rather see contraception and wise family planning over massive death & destruction.

 

Uh-huh. And the question remains--when is the earth full? When the only things left alive on land are humans, wheat, soybeans, and chickens? I'm just taking your point-of-view to the logical conclusion. </font>[/QUOTE]We're not even close to being "full."

But why don't you discuss the real reason Christians in America are using birth control?

 

Herr Hitler was practicing eugenics. The "superior race" must multiply. The progress of evolution demanded that the superior race must prosper and stamp out those who got in its way. Germany's expansionist agenda was not driven by poplulation explosion, it was driven by the ethic of evolution and the application of that ethic, eugenics. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I see!!! Really----I never thought of that---but you're right now that you've mentioned that!!! So??? Hitler's evolution theory meets up with American Shermans and Russian T-34's---along with unlimited air support and artillery barrages!!!!

 

And how much massive death and destruction do we have right now in America? 4 million abortions a year. Rampant sexual immorality of every stripe. Divorce and remarriage at epidemic proportions.

Our wise use of contraception and family planning is really working, isn't it.

 

I personally don't mind if Christians use contraceptives to delay pregnancy. We use them because neither of us are done with our educations yet. I plan to have 3-4 children. Does that make me half as righteous as you since you currently have 8? What if we managed to have three kids and then a set of quintuplets? Would we then be equally righteous, in spite of not having the kids as soon as we might have?

But first tell me when you would consider the earth to be full, as this is something that no one ever seems to consider. *twiddles thumbs waiting*

 

Paul33 -

Children are a responsibility given to you. I tend to think "let me have sex whenever I want, and don't worry about whether you get pregnant or not," is selfish on a man's part.

It isn't his life on the line with each pregnancy, and it usually isn't him that is home with the dirty diapers, teething, and screaming-from-pain-of-ear-aches.

And "my kids can do without" so you can have sex, and NOT use birthcontrol is ALSO a bit selfish.

 

Herr Hitler was practicing eugenics. The "superior race" must multiply. The progress of evolution demanded that the superior race must prosper and stamp out those who got in its way. Germany's expansionist agenda was not driven by poplulation explosion, it was driven by the ethic of evolution and the application of that ethic, eugenics. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I see!!! Really----I never thought of that---but you're right now that you've mentioned that!!! So??? Hitler's evolution theory meets up with American Shermans and Russian T-34's---along with unlimited air support and artillery barrages!!!! </font>[/QUOTE]American eugenicists were applauding Hitler and his bold application of their theories. Thankfully, in America, under a constitutional republic, we still had freedom of religion.

What's interesting is that we abandoned eugenics as a result of the Hitler experiment, but kept the evolutionary ethic.

So, only a few decades later, we unleashed on the American people the abortion holocuast.

 

1. We are not told how much to multiply.
2. Notice the times this command is given and to whom it is given.

The first man and woman- this understandble, God command the animals to do so as well.

Noah's sons- to repopulate the post flood world

Jacob- to become a great nation.

I did not say children weren't a blessing. I have two myself with a third on the way. I did not say they should be avoided. What I said was that I want Scripture to show me that is wrong to parctice contraception- somthing NOBODY has done. All you have done is ask me a bunch of questions without answering mine.

Show me Scripture where it is wrong NOT too. Thats point! It says nothing one way or the other!

Plus some families are not able to support more than two children even in the wealthiest nation in the world. You know not everyone is wealthy.

You do not know why most Christian families limit their size. I would venture to say that it is not for self-centered reasons.

You are not able to judge a fellow Christian in this area since the Scripture is silent.

James 4:11-12
Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another? [NKJV]

For the record, my wife and I will limit our family size because she had to have an emergancy c-section and was cut in two directions with our first child. This severly weaked her uterus so we need to limit our family size for the sake of her life. There are plenty of legitmate reasons Chritian parents limit the size of their family.

I am married and I serve just fine with my time, thank you very much. No where are we told in the Scriptures that a married couple must have children or they are sinning.

Again prove from God's Word that not having children is sin. Yes they are blessing, but not being blessed in this way was never a sin!

I glad that you recognize that. Which is why I am at liberty to life my life in accord to His Word and the convition of the Holy Spirit through that Word. I am completely confident that if birth control is wrong, God in His sovereinty and through His Holy Spirit will show me.

 

Besides, be fruitful and multiply was a command to Adam & Eve, not to Paul33 or any other contemporary person.

 

Just exactly what are my kids doing with out? Mom being at every track meet? Dad going to every basketball game? Please.

My kids have food to eat (not the junk food that most parents feed their kids).

My kids aren't fat!

My kids get good grades!

My kids get freedom to play and imagine!

My kids only play sports when they want to play.

My kids know that the world doesn't revolve around them.

My kids attend public schools and graduate after their sophomore year.

My kids go to college and earn their own way!

My kids aren't into drugs, sex, and wasting time.

My kids are responsible and growing into healthy adulthood!

Giving oneself to a spouse in the marriage act is the most selfless thing a person can do when the needs of the other person are being met.

No worries.

 

It was also a command to Noah and his sons.

But seriously, forget the command. Where does the Bible paint having children as a burden?

 

Uh-huh. And the question remains--when is the earth full? When the only things left alive on land are humans, wheat, soybeans, and chickens? I'm just taking your point-of-view to the logical conclusion. </font>[/QUOTE]Your "logical" conclusion is one of the most illogical things I have ever read.

So..quit with the "logical"/"illogical" conclusions and actually address the specific points of discussion, huh?

What was God's purpose of creating the family in the first place?
To "fill the earth."
The earth is far from full. WE will never see it in a hundred more generations. And GOD will intervene LONG before it happens. He has already said so.
Yet, just as in the days of Noah, just so it is in our day. Mankind is full of himself now just as he was then. THIS is the crux of the issues before us. Contraception is all about ME ME ME ME.
Family "planning" is all about ME ME ME ME. Not God and His desires for us.

In HIS service;
Jim