Contraception

[Jim1999]

Why limit births? Because we are not a 3rd world country where thousands are starving to death each day. Because the responsibilities of ministry are very demanding and two children were all I could raise responsibly. Feed, clothe, instruct and educate. I also consider it resonsible stewardship.

IF God asked me to walk on water, I would gladly do it. For now He enabled me to swim, ride the boat or remain on shore. Simple as that, and nothing to do with lack of faith.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[gb93433]

Some families years ago had many children and owned a farm. With so many they had ready made labor for the farm. Today we have tractors.

I was friends with a family that had 20 children. They lived in two houses. Another family I knew had ten children. Their home was like a boarding house.

Those who advocate having many are probably not even close to 20. I would doubt that many of them are even close to the average number of children in each household about 100 years ago.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Many use the example of large families from the life of Susannah Wesley. Susannah bore 19 children in 21 years, with nine of them dying before the age of two.

John and Charles were two famous offspring but I am not sure that anyone today has the desire to be another Susannah Wesley.

God gave us a functioning brain. While if someone today had 19 children in 21 years, with 9 dying in infancy, I would have issues with them.

The word "abuse" actually comes to mind.

 

[mareese]

Originally posted by Jensen:
TatorTot,
I understand small salary! My 26 K /yr goes to support me, my wife, and my 4 girls. (My wife stays at home and homeschools the girls). But I trust that God will support everyone of His children, despite what I might think. God has a way of suprizing me....just when I believe He could not provide, He proves He is God! And God don't lie! Even when it comes to supporting, what we think, is too many children. AMEN. Trust God! He'll blow your mind!

What happens when you trust God and come bedtime your daughter's stomach is still empty? Then what do you do? Trust it's the will of God that everyone in the family go hungry?
It's charming that you have such faith, but in reality God doesn't send manna from heaven anymore. People have to work to support their children, and if something happens out of the ordinary or a boss doesn't give raises to account for higher living costs, you're much more likely to stay together as a family that isn't starving if there's 4 of you instead of twenty.
It's reality that people have fell for the same belief as you and ended up with hungry children who had to go to orphanages, starve in the streets, work in sweathouses, or be put up for adoption. What a blessing, eh?
Continue to have faith in God, but please don't make it blind faith. He gave us common sense for a reason.

 

[dianetavegia]

I see children raising children because mom has so many babies that she cannot watch them all. Even in smaller families, I see a 12 year old caring for her 9 year old brother and 1 year old sister every day after school until well after bedtime so mother and father can work.

Happy is the man who has his quiver full .... A quiver is a small pouch used for carrying 'arrows' for the bow used to provide for a family or protect a family. Most quivers hold only a few arrows and not an unlimited amount.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
Whilst God's word does not change on eternal matters, customs do change. We wear shoes now and not sandals; we wear dress suits and not robes. As the song goes, "Times they are achanging..."

Jim, did you just quote Bob Dylan? I am a great fan of Mr. Zimmerman, and laughed out loud when I read your comments.

As usual, you have given us a thoughtful and intelligent response. We take cars for granted, we use global telecommunications, and we even use computers. God has given us the technology for all of these modern conveniences, yet some seemingly believe that the knowledge and ability to be responsible with respect to making a choice about having children is somehow wrong? I have never understood that....

Although I understand why some believe that contraception is a sin, I strongly disagree with it. I have not seen anyone give me a Scriptural rationale for believing it is a sin. HOWEVER, everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this subject.

A sincere wish for a great weekend to all of you,
BiR

 

[TaterTot]

That is true, BIR, and thats why I think these kinds of discussions can be good.

We dont use b/c pills, but we know how to not get pregnant. I know many who choose to keep their family unit the size it is this way, and I cant find fault with it.

AS I said earlier, I have a friend with 9 and trying for 10 children. They rarely get one on one time with mama or daddy, they dont even know how to order from a menu, and whoever said earlier that the older ones raise the younger was correct (in this case) too. And thats fine for them, but God has not given me a heart for that kind of family life. I would do anything for my kids, and I am sure you all would too. And if I had another, I'd be fine with it. But I cannot understand how trying not to have another one is wrong. Just my 2 cents

 

[Liz Ward]

It's reality that people have fell for the same belief as you and ended up with hungry children who had to go to orphanages, starve in the streets, work in sweathouses, or be put up for adoption. What a blessing, eh?

Is child starvation a policy of the US government then? I normally only hear this sort of argument from the pro-choice-to-kill lobby.

Seems to me that if large families, and only Dad working, worked in the 1920s and 30s there is no reason why they shouldn't work now. Isn't the truth that "necessities" now means "a foreign holiday every year, two cars, one bedroom per child, paid extra-curricluar activites for every child and every child to go to university"?

Liz

Liz

 

[TomVols]

The most conservative Christian ethicits have determined that the pill is not an abortifacient. I'd have to review the findings on other forms. Destruction of life is not an option, in any form.

 

[Liz Ward]

Tom,

The manufacturers disagree.

Liz

 

[Jensen]

How much is enough for each child? If you only have 2 children and I have four, then am I twice as bad of a steward of God's resources? So how much is enough? I guess when we start to determine what the minimum "quality of life" a person should have is, then we are playing God. Similar to the Terri Schivo ordeal! I would rather be alive and poor, than to not be alive (or have a chance at it) at all!

We as a body have become so much like the world we cannot even see it. There should be no reason for any child of God to "go to bed hungry!" God will take care of His own! That was His promise, not mine. He did not promise to feed all with manna from heaven....he usually ministers through the body of Christ! Jesus sent out His disciples in Mark 6, and he didn't give them money, food, or send food from the sky! He told them to rely on who? Check it out... God gives us everything, food, money, shelter, you name it. What is all this stuff for? To hoard (that is what most believers do), no...to use what we NEED & give to others.

I don't see it as blind faith. It is faith in God's Holy Word. He says it, I believe it. Period. And living in our culture in our day & time doesn't change things. God is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow.

 

[Jim1999]

Originally posted by TomVols:
The most conservative Christian ethicits have determined that the pill is not an abortifacient. I'd have to review the findings on other forms. Destruction of life is not an option, in any form.

I believe most manufacturers, that I have read about, would agree that the pill does not effect an abortion. It is designed to interrupt an egg and sperm union. No problem for me. Thanks, Tom.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jim1999]

The fact, in the world, is that many children are starving to death, and many in the Western nations are severly malnourished and suffer from many health problems as well as cultural integration difficulties.

Are you suggesting that God intended this to happen, when we have the grey matter upstairs to prevent it? We worship different Gods, and I prefer my God.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by TaterTot:
That is true, BIR, and thats why I think these kinds of discussions can be good.

That is very true, and I am glad you have also interjected your "2 cents" into this discussion.

We dont use b/c pills, but we know how to not get pregnant. I know many who choose to keep their family unit the size it is this way, and I cant find fault with it.

Of course neither method is foolproof!!

AS I said earlier, I have a friend with 9 and trying for 10 children. They rarely get one on one time with mama or daddy, they dont even know how to order from a menu, and whoever said earlier that the older ones raise the younger was correct (in this case) too. And thats fine for them, but God has not given me a heart for that kind of family life. I would do anything for my kids, and I am sure you all would too. And if I had another, I'd be fine with it. But I cannot understand how trying not to have another one is wrong. Just my 2 cents

Well, like I said, I have yet to see anyone show me Scripturally that making the choice not to have children is wrong.

Wishing God's Best to you and your family, Tatertot,
BiR
[Trying to remember if he has ever actually typed the word "tatertot" prior to this message!!

]

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Jensen:
How much is enough for each child? If you only have 2 children and I have four, then am I twice as bad of a steward of God's resources? So how much is enough? I guess when we start to determine what the minimum "quality of life" a person should have is, then we are playing God. Similar to the Terri Schivo ordeal! I would rather be alive and poor, than to not be alive (or have a chance at it) at all!

As a former resident of Tampa, who was already familiar with this story, don't get me started on the Terri Schiavo ordeal.

We as a body have become so much like the world we cannot even see it. There should be no reason for any child of God to "go to bed hungry!" God will take care of His own! That was His promise, not mine. He did not promise to feed all with manna from heaven....he usually ministers through the body of Christ! Jesus sent out His disciples in Mark 6, and he didn't give them money, food, or send food from the sky! He told them to rely on who? Check it out... God gives us everything, food, money, shelter, you name it. What is all this stuff for? To hoard (that is what most believers do), no...to use what we NEED & give to others.

I don't see it as blind faith. It is faith in God's Holy Word. He says it, I believe it. Period. And living in our culture in our day & time doesn't change things. God is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow.

Not sure if I understand what you are saying here, as it relates to the subject at hand. Could you elaborate? [That is an honest question, by the way.]

Regards,

BiR

 

[mareese]

Originally posted by Jensen:
How much is enough for each child? If you only have 2 children and I have four, then am I twice as bad of a steward of God's resources? So how much is enough? I guess when we start to determine what the minimum "quality of life" a person should have is, then we are playing God. Similar to the Terri Schivo ordeal! I would rather be alive and poor, than to not be alive (or have a chance at it) at all!

We as a body have become so much like the world we cannot even see it. There should be no reason for any child of God to "go to bed hungry!" God will take care of His own! That was His promise, not mine. He did not promise to feed all with manna from heaven....he usually ministers through the body of Christ! Jesus sent out His disciples in Mark 6, and he didn't give them money, food, or send food from the sky! He told them to rely on who? Check it out... God gives us everything, food, money, shelter, you name it. What is all this stuff for? To hoard (that is what most believers do), no...to use what we NEED & give to others.

I don't see it as blind faith. It is faith in God's Holy Word. He says it, I believe it. Period. And living in our culture in our day & time doesn't change things. God is the same today as He was yesterday and will be tomorrow.

How much is enough? Unfortunately the world has tried to determine that. Food, clothing, shelter, and the ability to see a doctor when needed are the basic physical needs.
Your faith IS blind, or misguided. I prayed with faith for food to be provided for my child and it wasn't. What is the answer? Church welfare, where you depend on the church to provide for your kids if you have 20 and can't feed them now?
Take responsibility for your own life. THAT is the Christian thing to do. It is irresponsible to depend on being able to use others to take care of your responsibilities should hard times come up, and won't always happen. Learned it the hard way, hope you learn it before you have to live it!

 

[Liz Ward]

Originally posted by mareese:
I prayed with faith for food to be provided for my child and it wasn't.

You're in the US. Why didn't you apply for welfare / food stamps if the situation was so dire? Did you go to your brothers and sisters in Christ and tell them of the problem? If not, why not? If no-one knows, no-one can help.

Liz

 

[Jim1999]

According to some; one prays to their God and that God will convey the message. One doesn't use common sense. We have been told that!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[mareese]

It was an unexpected situation that happened on a weekend in a new city. There was simply nothing legal I could find or do at that time.
No, child starvation isn't a US policy. Children can have inadequate nourishment or go hungry for a night or two even in the richest of countries, without it being policy. I'm sure you're aware that bad situations can happen everywhere, and poor people exist despite government programs.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you believe someone should not worry about the number of children then have, and then depend on the government or church to provide for them? Is that faith in God's provision, or is that faith that your problems stemming from irresponsible behavior will be taken care of for you by the government or by others?

 

[Paul33]

Originally posted by Jim1999:
I don't believe for one minute that God might protect my foolishness should I blindly walk into a den of rattlesnakes. I think He intends that we should employ the common sense He enabled us to learn.

Cheers,

Jim

He also expects us to trust Him and value children like He does.

Children are seen to be a blessing in Scripture and no where does Scripture advocate the concept that children should be avoided. And yes, birth control and abortion remedies were available in cultures of the OT and NT.

The problem with birth control is that it leads to the attitude that fuels abortion. Children should be avoided, and unwanted pregnancies should be terminated.