Again, God is being described in human like terms here, in order for us to know Him, and even though He knows and determines outcomes, He is not some cold and emotionless machine just waiting to see it all happen! jesus wept for and over Jerusalem, even while knowing the Roman horrors would so come upon them in the future!
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Contradictions in Calvinism
- Thread starter ivdavid
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Is that how you conclude that God doesn't desire the non-elect to live - because you don't have an explanation yourself as to how it all fits? You do realize there are other theological positions that explain this and not run into these contradictions, right? Is your whole argument simply centered around God not desiring the non-elect to live?
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
When would it be enough for you to cross that line saying Scripture does contradict your current position and that it's time to reevaluate your belief system.
I have not implied this anywhere. Perhaps you've misunderstood some other point. If you could expand on what led you to this, I might be able to help clarify.
Again, not implied anywhere. Not being discussed at all, in fact. Can we please stick to the OP questions in order to draw conclusions?
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
An OT prophet speaking specifically to Israel under covenant with God, not speaking to the other nations at all who are under no covenant that offers them any forgiveness of their sins.
As God says here
Ezekiel 33 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Watchman and His Message
33 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “Son of man, speak to the children of your people, and say to them:
7 “So you, son of man: I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel
Okay? Where is the disconnect - why do you think whether that man is jew or not alters my question? I have no basis on man, only on God alone and His nature. What assumption am I missing out on that seems to make my question unclear? I even modified my question earlier to pertain to the jews alone during the OC - are you able to respond to that at least?
Answering in the Y/N would help clarify your position -
1. Do you believe God predestined condemnation over the non-elect before the ages, before any man's good or evil (Rom 9:11)?
2. Do you believe that this predestination was decreed by God for each and every single human non-elect right through OC and NC?
3. Do you believe that all Israel is not elect even during the OC - that some within Israel are elect children of promise while others are non-elect?
4. Do you believe that God can desire not to show mercy to the elect after He has already predestined them to salvation before the ages?
We can begin here?
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
You always try to make this so complex....
It is always about context, see you pulled that one out of Ezekiel where God specifically tells Ezekiel to speak to Israel, so when you apply his words to the other nations you presume upon the intent of the message. And people do that all the time in our times today regarding the NC. Those who are outside of the NC today are also hopeless and can not be saved unless they are put into the NC, added to the Church by Christ.
But people today say they add themselves to the church or even pray people into the kingdom....
Acts 2:46-47 New King James Version (NKJV)
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
I doubt the discussion can go anywhere further, seems purposeless to me, we should not make up cleverly contrived stories about how the NewCovenant works.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
The state of the unbelieving world is hopelessness and also is without God.
Unless God reveals Christ in them, which is how Paul describes his own conversion.
If you were without God in the world, then where was God, well He was not there working for your good...unless you are one of those God has called according to His purposes. Your life is one of hopelessness, and your entire existence serves the flesh and the devil. God does use your wicked life though to edify the church through various trials that the unbelievers impose on the church and to demonstrate His justice at the judgement.
Ephesians 2
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Unless God reveals Christ in them, which is how Paul describes his own conversion.
If you were without God in the world, then where was God, well He was not there working for your good...unless you are one of those God has called according to His purposes. Your life is one of hopelessness, and your entire existence serves the flesh and the devil. God does use your wicked life though to edify the church through various trials that the unbelievers impose on the church and to demonstrate His justice at the judgement.
Ephesians 2
Brought Near by His Blood
11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
But I'm not applying it to other nations. I'm not applying this verse to any man per se - I'm only drawing a fact about God's attributes and nature - His revelation that He desires the wicked to repent and live instead of thinking that He takes pleasure in their death.
Even going by your understanding, OT prophet is addressing the wicked in Israel, not other nations. Similar wicked of Israel are whom Jesus addresses in Matt 23:37. Are these not non-elect jews? And has not God predestined their condemnation, as per calvinism? How can God desire these non-elect wicked jews to repent and live at any moment in time after having decreed their condemnation before the ages? This is a straightforward question, yes? Why all the beating around the bush?
Particular
Well-Known Member
Sigh...you think of God as a King who has his hands tied behind his back.
Look what Jesus says before the verse you so love to cling to.
Notice the ending declaration about these vipers. "All these things will..."
God is purposeful. He does exactly what He wills. He is not hamstrung as you are implying.
Matthew 23:33-36 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Yes, obviously God chooses that some will not be elect and therefore eternally damned. Does this make him unjust? Absolutely not. They actually receive their just reward.
ivdavid,
1] there is no contradiction.
2] you are starting with the wrong vantage point.
3] you are over-thinking the issue.
A] Start with mankind fallen and dead in Adam.
B] Start with A purely Holy God perfect in all His Holy attributes.
C] Start with the fact that God has determined to punish all sin, not one sin will be unpunished.
What happens to all men and angels who sin, if God does not do anything? They go into second death.
It is just like that, except God in love elects a multitude to be saved and He seeks and saves every one of them.
These are warning passages given as a means to prevent some from going into apostasy.
1] there is no contradiction.
2] you are starting with the wrong vantage point.
3] you are over-thinking the issue.
A] Start with mankind fallen and dead in Adam.
B] Start with A purely Holy God perfect in all His Holy attributes.
C] Start with the fact that God has determined to punish all sin, not one sin will be unpunished.
What happens to all men and angels who sin, if God does not do anything? They go into second death.
It is just like that, except God in love elects a multitude to be saved and He seeks and saves every one of them.
These are warning passages given as a means to prevent some from going into apostasy.
I've spent more time clarifying what I don't mean or believe or imply than actually engaging with direct explanations from the calvinists.
My point is exactly what you've said above - God decrees and everything happens according to that. There can be no opposition to God's will at all - once He decrees, it must occur without fail. Once He chooses something, He overcomes all opposition, if at all any, to enforce what He has chosen to do. Why would God then desire against such an irreversible choice of His own? Isn't that a contradiction seen in His nature because of how calvinism sequences it?
I did not object to God being unjust. Yes, they receive their just reward and yes, God is sovereign. So why are we even talking about this?
I am questioning the calvinist sequence that leads to God being inconsistent - not being unjust. Inconsistent as seen in double-mindedness. Calvinism has God saying He chose to go left but then later desired to go right. Do you find this an acceptable portrait of our God?
Again, simple direct questions -
Can God desire no mercy to the elect whom He has previously sovereignly decreed to be saved? Yes/No.
Can God desire repentance and life to the non-elect whom He has previously sovereignly decreed to be condemned? Yes/No.
Both the above questions follow the pattern of whether it is consistent of God to desire the opposite of what He Himself has previously counselled? Please commit to answering the questions so we can move ahead instead of spending time on strawman arguments.
Particular
Well-Known Member
He doesn't.
When Jesus looks over Jerusalem he sees that it's own rebellion brings its destruction and he is sad that humanity is dead in its sin. They would not believe and they would die in unrepentance. This is sad. Any child of God will have the same sadness when recognizing the unrepentant nature of humanity.
While being sad about the nature of sin, God is not obligated to drag sinners out of the pit in which they, unrepentantly, live. This is what Jesus is sad about when looking over Jerusalem. He knows that God the Father had not chosen those rebels (read the verses before your pet verse). God had not given them to him. These people would die in unrepentant sin. That is a sad thing, ivdavid.
So...your imagined contradiction is no contradiction at all.
Do you actually believe this word for word? Because you've only described Single Predestination here - God in love elects and predestines those to be saved but does not do anything towards the rest.
Do you believe that God, at the same time that He lovingly elects, also looks over at the non-elect who're already deserving condemnation and specifically predestines them to that end? Is there an active determination/decree of their end at that time or not?
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Explain this to me. What do you mean Calvinism has God saying He chose to go left but desired to go right? What are you talking about specifically? I must have missed something.
I'm not sure I understand the question.
I would actually use the word demand instead of desire. And yes, God can demand repentance of the non-elect. Or require repentance of the non-elect.
I'm not understanding your line of reasoning/questioning here.
Who are these "some"? How do you define apostasy?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
There are some who draw back to perdition in unbelief, sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth - if this is not true enlightenment, then they are still with a darkened mind - how can they then sin wilfully with no more sacrifice for sins? I'll just start here for now and we can build on this later...
ivdavid,
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Apostasy is the full final falling into eternal perdition. It is to be reprobate, disapproved by God.
Jer6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them because the Lord hath rejected them.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
In the ot. thorns and briers spoken of together speak of apostates;
Isaiah 5:6
And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
Isaiah 10:17
And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
Isaiah 27:4
Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
Isaiah 32:13
Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city:
Ezekiel 2:6
And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
How do you define apostasy?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
There are some who draw back to perdition in unbelief, sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth - if this is not true enlightenment, then they are still with a darkened mind - how can they then sin wilfully with no more sacrifice for sins? I'll just start here for now and we can build on this later...
yes
The some are the elect remnant who by the grace of God persevere; watch in Hebrews6;
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Apostasy is the full final falling into eternal perdition. It is to be reprobate, disapproved by God.
Jer6:30 Reprobate silver shall men call them because the Lord hath rejected them.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
In the ot. thorns and briers spoken of together speak of apostates;
Isaiah 5:6
And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
Isaiah 10:17
And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
Isaiah 27:4
Fury is not in me: who would set the briers and thorns against me in battle? I would go through them, I would burn them together.
Isaiah 32:13
Upon the land of my people shall come up thorns and briers; yea, upon all the houses of joy in the joyous city:
Ezekiel 2:6
And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
How do you define apostasy?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
There are some who draw back to perdition in unbelief, sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth - if this is not true enlightenment, then they are still with a darkened mind - how can they then sin wilfully with no more sacrifice for sins? I'll just start here for now and we can build on this later...
yes
Sure, am always happy to explain so as to avoid confusion.
I'm focusing on simply God and 2 very specific actions of God along with their sequencing - His desire and counsel/decree. God's desire is His want that pleases Him when fulfilled. God's counsel/decree is His committing to a decision that will necessarily happen as He has decreed.
God can never desire or want anything that opposes what He Himself has counselled/decreed. If God has counselled/decreed an eternal kingdom, it will be established - God cannot then desire that the kingdom be ended, opposing what He has decreed in Himself first. Do you agree with this need for consistency and invariance within God's nature as His attributes?
So when calvinism says God counselled/decreed condemnation over the non-elect before the ages, God has committed to this completely just and fair decision and cannot desire in opposition to what He Himself has counselled within Himself. But Scriptures have recorded God desiring the non-elect to repent and live - and not die. How is this possible from the above?
Do you see the contradiction I'm pointing to specifically? I can labor on clarifying just this if this still is unclear - else, i can proceed further if you confirm you're following...
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I think I am following, but just to clarify can you post the passages in question regarding what you believe is an inconsistency in Calvinist thinking?
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