Controversial Questions

[MartyF]

People seem to take the point of Job as being that if you remain faithful to God, no matter how much the enemy takes from you, God will restore and replenish many times over. I say that doesn't do anything for the actual people whom Job lost. In other words, the end justifies the means. Not to me. That's why I have a hard time taking Job as literal, as it seems to me not to be an accurate picture of God's true nature.

No, that is a completely incorrect interpretation. That’s “prosperity gospel” like that of Joel Osteen. Job suffers because doggy-doo happens and the Bible never says that he is rewarded for his perseverance. Yes, he gets more than what he had before, but once again, that is because “stuff” happens.

A primer on Job - The book of Job discusses why God allows pain and suffering. | BibleProject

 

[Yeshua1]

Sorry, not buying it. If I say more, I might get banned, and I don't want that to happen. But maybe it will anyway, and maybe I'm not cut out to be a member of a conservative Christian body, even though I am conservative in my views, or mostly so.

It all revolves around what God would do for us by giving to us His own Son to be the very Lamb of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for your kind, encouraging, and understanding words. That means a lot to me, my friend.

I realize Abraham knew that God could bring a person back to life. But Isaac would still have experienced tremendous pain, and death. The story doesn't seem to me to reflect the picture Jesus presented of God. If that's true, what's the answer?

It also seems to me that the image of God that Jesus showed differs from some of the images of God in the OT. That is troubling to me. I have great difficulty reconciling these conflicting images.

God is a God of Love, but perhaps even more, He is HOLY!

 

[Walpole]

Help me here. Are you saying that you don't believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God given by the Holy Spirit? Did these men just write their own "impressions" of God and history?

No, that is not what I am saying. I believe the Scriptures are inspired. It is revelation presented to us through the prism of human history.

The Bible is primarily literal. Yes, there is poetry and figurative language and proverbial wisdom.

We must be unbelievably cautious when others begin the notion that the Bible is just an "impression" and that the literal stories are just analogies.

I hear more and more DAILY [on social media, forums, and in real life] where people who claim to be Christians dismiss more and more of the Bible. And/or define it as figurative - or that only the words of Christ count, etc.

Once again the Scriptures reveal who God is: The Trinity wanting to share His life with man. Put another way, the Bible reveals why God chose to became man.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, that is a completely incorrect interpretation. That’s “prosperity gospel” like that of Joel Osteen. Job suffers because doggy-doo happens and the Bible never says that he is rewarded for his perseverance. Yes, he gets more than what he had before, but once again, that is because “stuff” happens.

A primer on Job - The book of Job discusses why God allows pain and suffering. | BibleProject

1. job learned from his own experiences that God is the real God, worthy to be loved and worshipped, and trustworthy, for we are to walk by faith and not by sight!

 

[Yeshua1]

No, that is not what I am saying. I believe the Scriptures are inspired. It is revelation presented to us through the prism of human history.



Once again the Scriptures reveal who God is: The Trinity wanting to share His life with man. Put another way, the Bible reveals why God chose to became man.

God chose to send His own Son to be the messiah of lost sinners, as He wanted to call a people unto Himself whose only destination apart from His intervening on their behalf would be hell!

 

[MartyF]

God is omnipotent and all-knowing. So, why would he need to test Abraham if He knew beforehand what Abraham would do? The only thing that makes sense here to me is that either God does not know what free choice a person will make beforehand, or this story is not to be taken literally but attempts to teach a moral truth.

“God is omnipotent and all-knowing” is a Greek philosophical viewpoint.

The Old Testament viewpoint is quite different. God is testing Abraham because Abraham has failed many previous tests and God wants to know if Abraham has finally fully put his trust in God. God isn’t sure, so that is why God is doing the test.

The Greek philosophical viewpoint is that this is just an elaborate form of deceptive play-acting by God.

 

[ntchristian]

No, that is a completely incorrect interpretation. That’s “prosperity gospel” like that of Joel Osteen. Job suffers because doggy-doo happens and the Bible never says that he is rewarded for his perseverance. Yes, he gets more than what he had before, but once again, that is because “stuff” happens.

A primer on Job - The book of Job discusses why God allows pain and suffering. | BibleProject

I don't see how you can get that it's prosperity gospel from what I said. I don't hold to that.

 

[Yeshua1]

“God is omnipotent and all-knowing” is a Greek philosophical viewpoint.

The Old Testament viewpoint is quite different. God is testing Abraham because Abraham has failed many previous tests and God wants to know if Abraham has finally fully put his trust in God. God isn’t sure, so that is why God is doing the test.

The Greek philosophical viewpoint is that this is just an elaborate form of deceptive play-acting by God.

Open theism God does not exist, as God fully knew what would happen!

 

[MartyF]

I don't see how you can get that it's prosperity gospel from what I said. I don't hold to that.

Below is pretty close definition of prosperity gospel.

if you remain faithful to God, no matter how much the enemy takes from you, God will restore and replenish many times over.

Christians have been promised to be rewarded in Heaven. But the Bible doesn’t promise us lots of stuff on this Earth.

 

[Yeshua1]

Below is pretty close definition of prosperity gospel.



Christians have been promised to be rewarded in Heaven. But the Bible doesn’t promise us lots of stuff on this Earth.

peter asked Jesus that very same question! As in how much of a reward would they get for serving Him!

 

[MartyF]

Open theism God does not exist, as God fully knew what would happen!

Genesis 22:12 NLT
[12] "Don't lay a hand on the boy!" the angel said. "Do not hurt him in any way, for now I know that you truly fear God. You have not withheld from me even your son, your only son."

Bible seems to disagree.

 

[Yeshua1]

Genesis 22:12 NLT
[12] "Don't lay a hand on the boy!" the angel said. "Do not hurt him in any way, for now I know that you truly fear God. You have not withheld from me even your son, your only son."

Bible seems to disagree.

No, as it is addressing God in human terms, as IF God does not know in exhaustive way all things, he could not be God!

 

[ntchristian]

Below is pretty close definition of prosperity gospel.



Christians have been promised to be rewarded in Heaven. But the Bible doesn’t promise us lots of stuff on this Earth.

Yes, but I didn't say that's what I believe. I said that's what others seem to believe who accept what happened to Job and those he lost.

 

[AustinC]

I have to say that I have suffered much sorrow and loss but am not drawn to Job.

Interesting as I too have suffered much loss, yet Job gives me great comfort that God ordains even the suffering for a good purpose. What that purpose is, I will never fully understand, but I trust God entirely.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven, thank you for that heartfelt and thoughtful post. I would never seek to diminish or demean what the Book of Job means to you. I intend to respect everyone's spiritual journey and try to sympathize with people in the struggles they go through. It's a tough life here on this earth.

For me, I have a hard time taking the positives that the Book of Job puts forth when I think about those that were lost to him. Seems to me that they were caught in a crossfire between Satan and God and got the worst of it, victims of a spiritual "wager". That seems perverse to me. That's why I have trouble taking the book literally. I know we are all imperfect, and it seems the ancients were sometimes that in trying to convey spiritual truth. It doesn't affect my spiritual condition, because I look at such things through Jesus, but I wonder how it might affect really sensitive non-believers or new believers. That's troublesome.

It seems you are questioning God's goodness. That is a good thing to wrestle with, especially if you or those you love have suffered greatly. Job is a righteous guy in the Book of Job, and he struggled mightily to understand God's goodness. He even shows love and reverence for God amidst the impossible suffering.

God's response shows something about God's character that needs to be understood. He is the One to trust with everything, even when it does not seem that way. He knows how to run things, even when we cry out His actions are unfair. That takes faith in God's goodness, even when reality around us screams otherwise.

 

[MartyF]

Yes, but I didn't say that's what I believe. I said that's what others seem to believe who accept what happened to Job and those he lost.

That's good. I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the interpretation you described.

 

[ntchristian]

That's good. I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the interpretation you described.

Okay. Understood.

 

[ntchristian]

It seems you are questioning God's goodness. That is a good thing to wrestle with, especially if you or those you love have suffered greatly. Job is a righteous guy in the Book of Job, and he struggled mightily to understand God's goodness. He even shows love and reverence for God amidst the impossible suffering.

God's response shows something about God's character that needs to be understood. He is the One to trust with everything, even when it does not seem that way. He knows how to run things, even when we cry out His actions are unfair. That takes faith in God's goodness, even when reality around us screams otherwise.

I'm not questioning God's goodness. I am questioning this particular interpretation of God's nature.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

I'm not questioning God's goodness. I am questioning this particular interpretation of God's nature.

Thank you for clarifying. My mistake.