Conundrum Baptist Doctrine vs Satan

[loDebar]

We are condemned already, John 3:18 and in addition to Ezekiel, we are responsible for our own sins.

We believe infants are sinners but are not accountable until a later age

 

[Baptist Believer]

I don't associate what you described above with the possibility that God would or could regenerate an infant which dies an untimely death.

I don't see the connection with that and playing cards or going to a dance hall.

I was making the connection that the teaching of an "Age of Accountability" is something that has been reasoned out from scripture, but is not necessarily a scriptural idea. Moreover, various people and churches like to affix a certain age to the teaching that can be quite destructive. In the Baptist church where I grew up, it was considered to be 12 years old for some reason. Other churches claim the age of a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah, which is 13, reasoning that it was the age that that Jewish people believe children are placed under the Law.

I don't like to invent extrabiblical teaching like an "Age of Accountability." I think it does not take into account the varying age and maturity of children. Some truly know God from very young, and others of us come to faith later. I think we need to leave the question up to God's character and mercy. Certainly God knows the heart and intent of His children, and He will do right by them.

As for my own experience, although I grew up in a Baptist church, I never heard the true gospel of Jesus unto I was nearly 14. Previously, I heard all kinds of scare stories about burning in hell, promises that Jesus was about to come back at any moment (it was the 1970s) and I probably would not reach adulthood before it happen, that I needed to walk down the aisle and tell the pastor I needed to be baptized, but at the same time, walking down the aisle and being baptized only moved you across the room and made you wet. There was nothing helpful about those teachings, since the whole thing seemed so arbitrary and contradictory. The only constant was the pressure from the Sunday School teachers to "make a decision for Jesus," whatever that meant.

I heard the gospel for the first time at a little "coffee shop" revival center, when the preacher preached on Jesus calling Peter out of the boat. He explained that Jesus was calling Peter into a relationship of trust -- a relationship that would continue even if we slip up and start to sink beneath the waves. That made sense to me and I gave my life to Jesus a few minutes after.

I am convinced that if I had died the evening before, God would have had mercy on me as someone who had never heard. After that night, I knew that God will have mercy on me because I have responded in faith, as an often-faltering disciple.

 

[loDebar]

We believe the soul is conscience of sin, but the physical is in a time on innocence, as Adam and Eve in the Garden.


If a baby has a soul , it is sinful and here in condemnation. We are the bad guys

 

[Baptist Believer]

We believe the soul is conscience of sin, but the physical is in a time on innocence, as Adam and Eve in the Garden.

If a baby has a soul , it is sinful and here in condemnation. We are the bad guys

I don't understand your terminology or what you are trying to say. However, a child is a person, and persons ARE souls, both body and spirit. Even though babies and children inherit a fallen nature (they are ruined), that's not the same thing as being in rebellion against God. When one consciously chooses to sin, knowing in one's heart that they are sinning against God, then they become accountable for their actions before God. They have kicked off personal rebellion against God instead of merely being in a ruined state. Those is rebellion have to surrender if they are going to be saved. Those that are merely ruined may be rescued by God according to His kindness and character.

 

[loDebar]

We are not sinners because we were born human . We are sinners on our own. According to Eze. 18,
Sin cannot be inherited. Then how is the unborn still a sinner unless he was before being conceived, ?

If you a baby can go to heaven without being saved. then why can't I?

 

[loDebar]

If God has mercy on the unheard , what does that mean,?

 

[Baptist Believer]

We are not sinners because we were born human.

I did not claim that. I previously referred to it as "ruined," but more traditionally it has been called a sin nature. It is a bent away from God.

We are sinners on our own. According to Eze. 18,
Sin cannot be inherited.

I agree.

Then how is the unborn still a sinner unless he was before being conceived, ?

The child has a sinful nature, but has not yet had an opportunity to be in rebellion (aka "a sinner").

If you a baby can go to heaven without being saved. then why can't I?

Because you know better. You have heard. For those who haven't heard AND those who have not yet understood the witness of nature and common reason, they may possibly be redeemed:

Acts 17:30
Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent...​

By the way, the point of the gospel is not to "go to heaven," but to share in the kingdom of God eternally.

 

[loDebar]

I did not claim that. I previously referred to it as "ruined," but more traditionally it has been called a sin nature. It is a bent away from God.


I agree.


The child has a sinful nature, but has not yet had an opportunity to be in rebellion (aka "a sinner").


Because you know better. You have heard. For those who haven't heard AND those who have not yet understood the witness of nature and common reason, they may possibly be redeemed:

Acts 17:30
Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent...​

By the way, the point of the gospel is not to "go to heaven," but to share in the kingdom of God eternally.

Where did one get a sin nature if not from Adam? and why?

you use "kingdom of God" as a Jehovah's Witnress?

The problem with treating the "unheard" in that way is ... you make it better to not tell one of the gospel than to have them reject it?

 

[HankD]

Thanks for the reply. Why do infants die who never consciously sin? Paul says the wages of sin is death.

correct, there should be no such thing as infant death according to Iodebar doctrine.

 

[HankD]

I was making the connection that the teaching of an "Age of Accountability" is something that has been reasoned out from scripture, but is not necessarily a scriptural idea. Moreover, various people and churches like to affix a certain age to the teaching that can be quite destructive. In the Baptist church where I grew up, it was considered to be 12 years old for some reason. Other churches claim the age of a bar mitzvah or bat mitzvah, which is 13, reasoning that it was the age that that Jewish people believe children are placed under the Law.

I don't like to invent extrabiblical teaching like an "Age of Accountability." I think it does not take into account the varying age and maturity of children. Some truly know God from very young, and others of us come to faith later. I think we need to leave the question up to God's character and mercy. Certainly God knows the heart and intent of His children, and He will do right by them.

As for my own experience, although I grew up in a Baptist church, I never heard the true gospel of Jesus unto I was nearly 14. Previously, I heard all kinds of scare stories about burning in hell, promises that Jesus was about to come back at any moment (it was the 1970s) and I probably would not reach adulthood before it happen, that I needed to walk down the aisle and tell the pastor I needed to be baptized, but at the same time, walking down the aisle and being baptized only moved you across the room and made you wet. There was nothing helpful about those teachings, since the whole thing seemed so arbitrary and contradictory. The only constant was the pressure from the Sunday School teachers to "make a decision for Jesus," whatever that meant.

I heard the gospel for the first time at a little "coffee shop" revival center, when the preacher preached on Jesus calling Peter out of the boat. He explained that Jesus was calling Peter into a relationship of trust -- a relationship that would continue even if we slip up and start to sink beneath the waves. That made sense to me and I gave my life to Jesus a few minutes after.

I am convinced that if I had died the evening before, God would have had mercy on me as someone who had never heard. After that night, I knew that God will have mercy on me because I have responded in faith, as an often-faltering disciple.

Thank you. I appreciate the expanded answer BB.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Where did one get a sin nature if not from Adam? and why?

In Adam, all die (1 Corinthians 5:22).

you use "kingdom of God" as a Jehovah's Witnress?

No, as a Christian. The kingdom of God is God's active rule and authority. It is present now and will always be. It is an eternal kingdom. Regarding "heaven," the heavens and earth will be reunited (Revelation 21:1-4), the curse from Adam's day will be removed, and the tree of life will be available again to those who are in Christ (Revelation 22:1-5).

The problem with treating the "unheard" in that way is ... you make it better to not tell one of the gospel than to have them reject it?

If IS better to not have heard the gospel than reject it, but the problem is that we are made in the image of God, placed in a creation that testifies to God. Eventually, we will have understanding that there is Someone greater than ourselves and we have choices to make. We can seek the true God (like Abram/Abraham) or reject God in favor of our own conceits.

Hearing the gospel is the best opportunity to understand the nature of the true God and know that He offers a way for us to be reconciled.

 

[loDebar]

Adam was physical death, we are /were already spiritually dead.


no, no no, the earth will be destroyed, you are staring doctrine from Mormons, JW's and even Islam.

If you believe it is better not to hear than reject the Gospel , we should recall all the missionaries, just to be safe

 

[HankD]

Adam was physical death, we are /were already spiritually dead.


no, no no, the earth will be destroyed, you are staring doctrine from Mormons, JW's and even Islam.

May we have the evidence from Mormon, JW and Islamic writings please.

If you believe it is better not to hear than reject the Gospel , we should recall all the missionaries, just to be safe

Who is the "you" in this sentence?

 

[loDebar]

May we have the evidence from Mormon, JW and Islamic writings please.

All these believe the earth believers will become better and better until equal and unite with Heaven.


Who is the "you" in this sentence?

Any one who believes the it is better not to have heard of the gospel than to hear and reject it

 

[Revmitchell]

"abortion" is not a fetus that is aborted it is a human child that is slaughtered. Slaughtered, demeaning the lives of unborn children by referring to them as fetuses evil.

 

[HankD]

Any one who believes the it is better not to have heard of the gospel than to hear and reject it

Thank you.

 

[Rhetorician]

When events suggest differences to established teachings we must look deeper to determine truth.

Currently we believe Satan has a special war against the unborn and infants, We know that millions are aborted every year yet we teach that each one goes to Heaven directly because of not reaching t the "age of Accountability". It would seem that in order to prevent people from Heaven this is backwards. It would be better for Satan to prevent salvation than send directly.
Some say it is a attack on a family but there are more effective ways than prevention of a life.

any opinions?

loDebar,


Off the thread, I want to ask why the name: "No Pasture?"

On the thread, is there a question in your OP? Or is there a statement of fact you want to defend? I have not been through the whole thread but is seems this would clarify what you are seeking,

sdg

rd

 

[loDebar]

No Pasture is a hard way for a she herd to make a living,, a hard life

I was trying to stimulate discussion on this matter. I di have an opinion as to why it is but have not stated it.

Satan is trying to keep humans from being born

 

[Yeshua1]

He does not.

Eze 18:20

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

nor are condemned because of Adam's sin. We have our own

That passage as NOTHING to so with Adam sin and our spiritual state, its talking about somone being punished/executed for the sinful acts they have done here. God will judge and have a murderer killed, but will jnot execute the rest of the family just because dad was a bad man!

 

[loDebar]

That passage as NOTHING to so with Adam sin and our spiritual state, its talking about somone being punished/executed for the sinful acts they have done here. God will judge and have a murderer killed, but will jnot execute the rest of the family just because dad was a bad man!

You accept then individual responsibility? not shared guilt. This is what the verses are saying. Each is responsible for their own sin