Corporate and Individual Election for Salvation

[MB]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Many have answered you but you insist on posting error. I will not really answer you until you want answers.
You deny most of the heart of biblical soteriology.

There is nothing biblical about Gentiles being elect The whole of Calvinism is in error because it isn't biblical.
MB

 

[Van]

Is Israel elect or not? See Deuteronomy 7:6-8, 14:2, 26:17-19. Where does Scripture say that Old Testament believers are "in Christ"? Clearly New Testament saints are in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) but your summary does not seem to account for God's choosing of pre-Christian believers such as those found in Hebrews 11.

Sir, if you are not going to address my post, why are you posting to address items not a issue.

Did I address the corporate election of the descendants of Abraham? Yes
Did I say anyone was placed into Christ under the Old Covenant? Nope
The OT saints were individually chosen as Abraham was, which is on the basis of faith. They had to wait (in Abraham's bosom) until Christ died to be made perfect. Thus they "gained approval" by faith, as Hebrews 11 says.

 

[Van]

A plain reading of the text seems clear to me. The “choosing” stands with “from the beginning”. The “through the sanctification of Holy Spirit....faith” does not refer to the choosing but rather the appropriation of salvation.

And so we disagree.

peace to you

Not how it reads, which means your view is nullification.

 

[Van]

I understand the question, I think. You are asking how can God chose us individually to be an elect people of God, prior to creation, when scripture says there was a time when we were not a people of God? Is that your question?

The answer is this: The “choosing” is from God’s perspective, not ours. God exists outside of what we understand as chronological time. He sees everything at once, the end, the beginning and everything that happens between.

So, when God elects someone to salvation and puts that person among His people to worship Him forever in heaven, it is certain to happen (from our perspective) in time because it has already happened from Gods perspective; He has ordained it and made it a certain reality and has seen it happen.

It can happen in no other manner than what God has ordained.

peace to you

So scripture is wrong, we were always a people of God, and never not a people. We had always obtained mercy, and never had not received mercy. Got it....

 

[canadyjd]

Not how it reads, which means your view is nullification.

And so we disagree

peace to you

 

[Van]

Scripture is clear, people are individually chosen through faith in the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[canadyjd]

So scripture is wrong, we were always a people of God, and never not a people. We had always obtained mercy, and never had not received mercy. Got it....

Scripture is true and God is truth.

From God’s perspective, it is true we are His people/sheep even prior to salvation which is why Jesus calls His sheep by name. His Will cannot be thwarted.

From our perspective, we become His people when the application of that mercy takes place in time when God Holy Spirit intervenes in our lives; transforming us so that we have the ability to believe the gospel and have faith in Jesus unto salvation.

He has ordained before the foundation of the world a specific group of people to salvation. Although their election to salvation is certain, prior to salvation they are under the same condemnation as are all people.

I know you disagree, but I hope that helps you to understand I do not think scripture is wrong.

peace to you

 

[Van]

Scripture is true and God is truth.

From God’s perspective, it is true we are His people/sheep even prior to salvation which is why Jesus calls His sheep by name. His Will cannot be thwarted.

From our perspective, we become His people when the application of that mercy takes place in time when God Holy Spirit intervenes in our lives; transforming us so that we have the ability to believe the gospel and have faith in Jesus unto salvation.

He has ordained before the foundation of the world a specific group of people to salvation. Although their election to salvation is certain, prior to salvation they are under the same condemnation as are all people.

I know you disagree, but I hope that helps you to understand I do not think scripture is wrong.

peace to you

If you didn't, you would not rewrite scripture to fit your fancy. You say we were a people chosen individually before creation yet scripture says we were not a people. No epistemological way around the obvious.

 

[canadyjd]

If you didn't, you would not rewrite scripture to fit your fancy. You say we were a people chosen individually before creation yet scripture says we were not a people. No epistemological way around the obvious.

We disagree

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Van]

We disagree

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

You say we were a people chosen individually before creation yet scripture says we were not a people. No epistemological way around the obvious.

 

[canadyjd]

You say we were a people chosen individually before creation yet scripture says we were not a people. No epistemological way around the obvious.

We disagree

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[Van]

We disagree

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

This issue is not my beliefs or yours, it is the obvious truth of scripture: God chose individuals for salvation by means of setting them apart in Christ on the basis of faith in the truth.

 

[Tsalagi]

Sir, if you are not going to address my post, why are you posting to address items not a issue.

I am directly addressing your post. You said, "whoever is 'in the corporate sphere' of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. ... when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become 'elect.'" This is not the mechanism for entering the "corporate sphere" of Israel, the clearest and most prominent example of corporate election in the entire Bible. In pointing this out I was suggesting a thought regarding birth (and thus new birth) as the specific means of entering what you call the corporate sphere, whether Israel or Christ.

Did I address the corporate election of the descendants of Abraham? Yes

You gave "in Christ" as a means of being corporately elected, and then claimed without reference that Abraham's individual election is the source of Israel's corporate choosing; hence my reply.

Did I say anyone was placed into Christ under the Old Covenant? Nope

And yet you define corporate election only in those terms, which is my point.

The OT saints were individually chosen as Abraham was, which is on the basis of faith. They had to wait (in Abraham's bosom) until Christ died to be made perfect. Thus they "gained approval" by faith, as Hebrews 11 says.

Now you are talking about individual election, which you have not reconciled with the birth idea (Abraham's seed, to which you briefly alluded). As I said, your summary of corporate election is not clear with respect to these issues. It's not a personal attack, just an observation, so relax.

 

[Tsalagi]

This issue is not my beliefs or yours, it is the obvious truth of scripture: God chose individuals for salvation by means of setting them apart in Christ on the basis of faith in the truth.

You fail to address Old Testament salvation with statements like this, and "obvious" is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Van]

I am directly addressing your post. You said, "whoever is 'in the corporate sphere' of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. ... when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become 'elect.'" SNIP.

And here is what I actually said, "Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect.

Next I said, "The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry."

So I did not say "when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become elect." I said that was the Arminian idea, but entry into the corporate sphere may be precluded based on human choice.

Here is the summary of what I said, "In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individually set apart in Christ is our individual election to salvation.

To claim I said entry was based on sincere trust in Christ is disinformation.

 

[Tsalagi]

And here is what I actually said, "Thus, whoever is “in the corporate sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect.

Next I said, "The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry."

So I did not say "when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become elect." I said that was the Arminian idea, but entry into the corporate sphere may be precluded based on human choice.

Here is the summary of what I said, "In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, but we enter that corporate sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, thus the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individually set apart in Christ is our individual election to salvation.

To claim I said entry was based on sincere trust in Christ is disinformation.

A misunderstanding, perhaps, not "disinformation" which rather unkindly accuses me of intentional distortion. Your statement is far from clear, especially when considering the case of Old Testament Israel and Old Testament saints - which you seem to say were placed spiritually in Christ when their Old Testament faith is credited as righteousness. You have not addressed my questions on this score.

 

[Van]

A misunderstanding, perhaps, not "disinformation" which rather unkindly accuses me of intentional distortion. Your statement is far from clear, especially when considering the case of Old Testament Israel and Old Testament saints - which you seem to say were placed spiritually in Christ when their Old Testament faith is credited as righteousness. You have not addressed my questions on this score.

Sir, you are wasting my time making one false claim after another, rather than addressing the topic.
Did you provide a quote where I "seemed to say" the OT saints were placed in Christ before Christ died on the cross. If you do not have a quote, stop posting disinformation.

 

[AustinC]

Sir, you are wasting my time making one false claim after another, rather than addressing the topic.
Did you provide a quote where I "seemed to say" the OT saints were placed in Christ before Christ died on the cross. If you do not have a quote, stop posting disinformation.

Do you ever think to yourself, "Everyone is opposing me. Perhaps it is me who is wrong."???

 

[Tsalagi]

Sir, you are wasting my time making one false claim after another, rather than addressing the topic.
Did you provide a quote where I "seemed to say" the OT saints were placed in Christ before Christ died on the cross. If you do not have a quote, stop posting disinformation.

Why can't you answer my questions? You say "In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was corporately chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan ..." This notion refers to New Testament believers. I ask you again, what about God's chosen people Israel? Are they NOT any part of "the target group of His redemption plan"? Are OT saints elect individually or corporately for salvation, and if so where is your scriptural support? Your supposed summary of the concepts of individual and corporate election for salvation (your topic title) fails to address the salvation of Old Testament saints in any meaningful way.

 

[Van]

Do you ever think to yourself, "Everyone is opposing me. Perhaps it is me who is wrong."???

LOL, I think I am presenting truth, and that is why one false charge after another is posted to disparage me personally. Am I being opposed by false teachers? I think so.