Corporate Election

Jesus Christ died for the sins for the entire human race, including Judas, and because of this ALL can, should they WILL, come to Christ for salvation, otherwise the "offer to the entire world" would be insincere!

 

Yes they did, but this is not what the Holy Bible teaches, nor what John Calvin himself believed! But there are some here who cannot accept the facts of Scripture, that goes against their "pet theology", and they use all means to wriggle out!

 

lol....you might think I limit the possibilities before considering them....I think you torture yourself by bringing up every possibility, even if they are discounted many times ...but those who went before us...
One other thing....in this discussion some items need to be kept distinct;
from a Baptist Catechism with Commentary;pg123,124
There are several types of the election of persons revealed in Scripture:
national,
messianic,
ministerial
and salvific:
first, there is the Divine choice of Israel to be the chosen people of God in a national sense, although only a small remnant of that nation was truly the spiritual people of God (Cf. Deut. 4:37; 7:6–7; 10:14–15; Psa. 135:4; Isa. 41:8–9; 44:1; 45:4; Rom. 4:11–17; 9:6–9, 23–24; 11:1–6).
Israel in its national election was typical of God’s elect spiritually chosen under the New or Gospel Covenant.

Second, there is the election of the Lord Jesus Christ as the “Elect” of God and true “Seed of Abraham.”

In the choice of Abraham, God chose a nation, and in that nation, he chose an individual—the Messiah—and in that individual, he chose a true covenant people—believers (Isa. 42:1–7; Jer. 31:31–34; Luke 23:35; Gal. 3:15–16; Eph. 1:4–5; Heb. 8:8–13; 1 Pet. 2:4–9).

Third, there is also an election unto service, as revealed in the choice of Moses, the Levites, various kings, etc. (Deut. 21:5; 2 Sam. 6:21; 1 Chron. 28:5; Psa. 78:67–68; 105:26; 106:23). This principle is retained in the New Testament with the Divine call to the gospel ministry (Acts 9:10–16; 13:2–4).

Finally, there is an eternal, personal election unto holiness, which includes the totality of salvation and derives from the eternal Covenant of Redemption and Grace, or the believer’s eternal union with Christ (Rom. 8:29–31; 11:5–6; Acts 13:48; Eph. 1:4–5, 11; 1 Pet. 1:1–2; 2 Pet. 1:10).

 

The offer is made in a legit fashion, but all sinners in their sin natures will choose to reject Jesus!

 

Jesus died for all sinners, but not in the same sense as he did for the elect, as only them will have saving Grace applied towards them!

 

How can the offer for the Gospel to be preached to the entire human race, be sincere, IF, God did not make provision in the Death of Jesus Christ for this entire human race? To make the offer to ALL without exception, it requires that Jesus' Death was also to ALL without exception. You cannot have the one without the other!

 

you wish! He also died for Judas!

 

Did God intend to have the death of Jesus purchase a sure salvation for all sinners, or just some?

 

Judas was the one who fulfilled prophecy and perished, so did Jesus die in a saving sense for Him too?

 

In Luke's account of the Lord's Supper, we read the following,

"Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. But behold, the hand of My betrayer is with Me on the table" (22:20-21)

The word "you" is in the plural number, which would include Judas, who also partook of the cup which represented Jesus "blood" shed for the sins also of Judas on the cross. There are some who argue that Judas was not present for the Lord's Supper, but only for the Passover meal. I quote from two prominent Calvinistic commentator's, on this passage.

"From Luke's account it appears most clearly, that Judas was not only at the passover, but at the Lord's supper, since this was said when both were over" (John Gill)

"it seems plain that Judas did receive the Lord's supper, did eat of that bread and drink of that cup; for, after the solemnity was over, Christ said, Behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. There have been those that have eaten bread with Christ and yet have betrayed him" (Matthew Henry)

It should be observed, that the timing of the institution of the Lord's Supper is very important. Jesus makes sure that Judas, then one who would betray Him, was also present when He addressed His words, "My blood which is shed for YOU", which without any doubt included Judas. Had Jesus' death not been also for Judas, and those who are not of the so-called "elect", then surely Jesus would have waited for Judas to have left the room, which he did not much later, and then instituted the Lord's Supper, which included Jesus' words for whom this was intended.

This should not come as a surprise to anyone who knows the heart of the God of the Holy Bible. For we read in places like Ezekiel 18:21-23,

“But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?"

It is abundantly clear that the Lord does NOT desire any of the wicked lost to go to hell, as some who profess Jesus Christ do!

 

YES, otherwise Jesus' words to Judas at the Lord's Supper were untruthful!

 

ALL

 

" That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life." (Commentary on John)

Note the words that I have made bold. Language that no "Calvinist" would use for this verse! "all men without exception", which hardly "Calvinistic" language, which is "without distinction"! Then on Mark 14:24, " Which is shed for many. By the word many he means not a part of the world only, but the whole human race". IF, as some suppose, that this "Limited Atonement" as part of the 5 Points (T.U.L.I.P.), is from John Calvin's teachings, then he could never have written these words on Mark 14:24. Note the careful language, "not part of the world", which is exactly what Limited Atonement teaches, that only a "part", that is, "the elect", is who Christ died for. No, says Calvin, "the WHOLE human race", is included in the death of the Lord Jesus Christ! AMEN!!!. One more example from Calvin. Colossians 1:14, " He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated". Dr R T Kendall (among other Calvinists, like Richard Baxter, John Bunyan, John Newton, John Brown, and others), believed and taught that Jesus Christ died for the WHOLE WORLD WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Writing on the term "world" in John 3:16, which many Calvinists take to mean "elect", Dr Robert Dabney, himself a Calvinist, says, "But there are others of these passages, to which I think, the candid mind will admit, this sort of explanation is inapplicable. In Jno. iii.16, make 'the world' which Christ loved, to mean 'the elect world', and we reach the absurdity, that some of the elect may not believe, and perish" (Systematic Theology, page 525). Dr Dabney is addressing the passages where terms like "all", etc can have limited meanings, as we as what it actually says. Clearly to the "candid" mind, no limit can be placed on "the world", for which Jesus Christ loved, and died!

 

"JonC,

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Agreed...that is why I qualified it as saying it was subjective...and said"in my world" But this is useful interaction as reformed posted about earlier...we are clarifying words and ideas before moving forward...

I know now how you post, your BB M.O....that is why I said i did not think you were doing what those who oppose set out to do....You do this with every topic....that is just how you roll

okay...so we are raising up the % by clarification...this is a positive development...

Agreed...I just posted from the Catechism to help clarify this;[post24]

The Language of the covenant is corporate, yes,"the people of God, The Household of God,21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Do you mean like this;
13 Salute Rufus chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine.?

One problem is...we do not have individual letters written to individuals...in the list in Romans 16 Paul does mention individual saints....
However texts like these can only be obeyed by each individual elect person;
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

In other words,,,I cannot make your calling and election sure...that is between you and God.

 

One of the main ploys of Calvinists is to deny their doctrine and waste everyone's time. They are not interested in edification, but in obfuscation. Christ died as a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved.

 

Corporate Election

First lets define “corporate” election as God making a choice to deal with a group of people according to His purpose. Thus, whoever is “in the sphere” of His choice is chosen, and therefore anyone who enters that sphere becomes chosen or elect. The concept does not include a specific way to enter that sphere, so it is consistent with the Arminian idea that when a person sincerely puts their trust in Christ, they enter that sphere and become “elect” but corporate election does not preclude denial of human choice as the means of entry. The means must be an additional stipulation.

Secondly, it is a false dichotomy to say if God does sometimes choose to deal with a group for some purpose, that means He does not ever choose individuals for some related purpose. Corporate election does not require the denial of individual election, and individual election does not require the denial of corporate election.

As we wade into the subject of corporate election, our first question might be, do we see in the Bible the notion of corporate election or individual election. The answer is both. As Dr. Daniel B. Wallace wrote, “Individual and corporate perspectives are intertwined in Paul.”

Next, to paraphrase Dr. Wallace, “whether individual or corporate election is in view, the election is initiated by God and effected by God. Those who are chosen become what they were chosen for.” Judas was chosen to fulfill the betrayer prophecy, and that is what he became.

Next can there be corporate election without first being individual election? The answer to this depends on how one understands the question. For example Abraham was chosen and then within his descendents the line leading to Christ was promised, the world being blessed through Abraham’s seed. So this would be an example of an individual election resulting in a corporate election. On the other hand God might choose to order the destruction of a people who are in the way of God’s people from fulfilling His purpose. So the answer is there can be corporate elections that are the consequence of individual elections, and there can be corporate elections not as a consequence of an election of some individual from the group.

Which brings us to the crux of the matter, are we chosen corporately to salvation or individually to salvation? Dr. Wallace again correctly pointed out that Romans 8:33 clearly addresses charges being brought against individuals, saying if they are elect, no charge can be brought. Why not? Because they were chosen by God to salvation, and no plan of God can be thwarted. If all has been forgiven by God, no lesser entity can bring any charge. If you have a Presidential pardon, no state governor can charge you with the pardoned crime. Secondly, and this point was definitely not made by Dr. Wallace, if a person was chosen to salvation, they would be elect, but if they had not been saved, then a charge could be brought against them. Thus this verse requires that election to salvation and salvation go hand in hand with no delay between the two.

And if as required by Romans 8:33, there is no delay, when are we chosen? Since many verses clearly teach before we were chosen, we were sinners; our individual election to salvation has to occur during our physical lifetime. In 1 Corinthians 1:26-30 we see God chose what the world saw as weak and foolish, requiring those chosen to be in and therefore known by the world. Second Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth, requiring that we were alive and believing in Jesus when we were chosen. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says once we were not a people but now we are a people, requiring that we lived before becoming part of God’s chosen people, and also once we had not received mercy but now we have received mercy, again requiring that we lived without receiving mercy, and then we received mercy. Lastly we have God choosing the poor of this world, again requiring people being chosen while living, James 2:5.

In summary, when God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, that was an individual election that resulted in a corporate election, everyone subsequently redeemed was chosen in Him, as the target group of His redemption plan, thus He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world corporately, but we enter that sphere when God individually credits our faith as righteousness and places us spiritually in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 being our individual election to salvation.

 

Yes, this is what the Bible very plainly teaches, and accepted bu those who take it as it is, without imposing their own "theology" on it!