Could someone explain?

[thessalonian]

"Any Church that teaches that salvation is other than justification by faith [Romans 5:1] faith plus nothing should be shunned. "

Had you inserted the word alone (in the context or your thinking, for in my faith alone can be correct) after this I would have rejected it. But his is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. You see faith to you and I are different. There is a "faith" which is a head nod, but of which the Lord says "not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER". My Catholic faith is a faith that has to be lived out. An active faith saves and that is a faith that includes works. Noah would have drowned 20 times over had he pulled up his lawn chair and waited for his house to become beach property and not acted on his faith and built an ark. Moses never would have freed anyone had he said "I have faith" yet did not follow God in leading the Israelites across the desert. The walls of Jerico would still be standing had not Joshua in faith circled them 7 days in a row and then do a bunch of hollering. God did not give up on his words of Isaiha 1 where he says that it is his desire to for men to care for the widow and the orphan. He says that sacrifies (which he prescribed for the Jews) are meaningless unless they act in faith and care for the afflicted. Read it. So the statement you have made above is in complete conformity with Catholicism. For Catholicism believes in a true and active faith rather than a head bob of consent with no change in life or action required thereafter. Thus the charge you have made that rome teaches a false Gospel convicts you of bearing false witness.

Blessings

 

[Ray Berrian]

thessalonian,

You having been a non-Catholic before know as well as I that we do not believe in merely a 'head bob.' You said, ' For Catholicism believes in a true and active faith rather than a head bob of consent with no change in life . . . '

Ray is saying, 'We too believe that when a person really believes in Jesus they will produce a life of 'fruit bearing.'

You said, ' . . . or action required thereafter.'

Ray is saying, 'When we truly connect in with Christ as Savior, He will give us a life that is well pleasing unto Him. Ephesians 2:10 is what we believe about what happens after we have a faith and trust in the Lord. Your false criticism of us makes no lasting impression on anyone.

Those who merely 'bob their heads' the Lord will judge; apparently not you or me. [John 5:22]

Will God, in your view of things, judge you by the Bible plus the rules and traditions of your church?

 

[thessalonian]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
thessalonian,

You having been a non-Catholic before know as well as I that we do not believe in merely a 'head bob.' You said, ' For Catholicism believes in a true and active faith rather than a head bob of consent with no change in life . . . '

Ray is saying, 'We too believe that when a person really believes in Jesus they will produce a life of 'fruit bearing.'

You said, ' . . . or action required thereafter.'

Ray is saying, 'When we truly connect in with Christ as Savior, He will give us a life that is well pleasing unto Him. Ephesians 2:10 is what we believe about what happens after we have a faith and trust in the Lord. Your false criticism of us makes no lasting impression on anyone.

Those who merely 'bob their heads' the Lord will judge; apparently not you or me. [John 5:22]

Will God, in your view of things, judge you by the Bible plus the rules and traditions of your church?

First of all I have not been a non-catholic but that is okay. Secondly I will say that we as Catholics agree that works do not save. Those who are not saved can do no amount of works to be saved. They must be baptistized and once baptized having fallen from grace, recieve the sacrement of confessoin. So works do not save in the protestant sense of the word. Now they do of course strengthen the soul against sin by filling the life of the Christian with virtue rather than vice. They do in this manner counteract venial sin. Just a bit of clarification.

Now for your question.

"Will God, in your view of things, judge you by the Bible plus the rules and traditions of your church?"

The way it is worded I agree with it for the way you have worded it can be restated by me "will God, in my view of things, judge me on the Word of God"?

2 Thes 2:15: "Hold fast to the traditions you have revieved, whether BY WORD OF MOUTH or in letter from us."

You see my definition and the scriptural definition of WOG = scripture (written tradition) + oral tradition. This matches exactly what 2 Thes 2:15 is saying. Tell me something. In Hebrews 4:12 why does Paul not say scriptures, rather than Word of God? I give you the verse for context. Are the two interchangable? I have asked the question many times and noone has been able to show me they are.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

If one has the incorrect view of what scripture says then do they have the WOG?

Blessings

[ October 16, 2003, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

[CatholicConvert]

Faithcontender --

You really had better stop and think about what you have done, sir.

You claim that the light of the Holy Spirit has led you to apostacize from our Lord's Church. Now that simply makes no sense at all because the Holy Spirit promised that He would not allow the gates of hell to prevail against Her. He would also not oppose that which He strove to build in the first century and forward.

Your problem may be in several areas, most notably that you were sleeping or in other ways disinterested in your CCD classes as a kid. Whatever it was, you obvious know nothing about the faith, which is the condition (lamentably) of most of the Catholics I meet. It seems that the 20th century was a high water mark for ignorance among Catholics. When I was a decieved Protestant and went out to try to git people "saved", I never met a Catholic who could sit down with me and give me a good defense from the Scriptures regarding the Faith.

You have fallen, hook, line and sinker, for a religion which did not exist prior to the 1500's and which has no basis in Scripture unless you severely twist and torture the words of our Lord and St. Paul.

And you may find (I am not God and I do not know your heart nor how He will deal with apostates) that you have, far from "coming home to Jesus" actually made a decision which will deprive you of many blessings in eternity which you could have had if you had stayed with the Church and worked as hard to prove Her doctrines as you did to study the falsities of Protestantism.

Evangelical protestantism has been shilled in this country so long that even the laity of the Church is starting to use some of the jargon. That does not make error truth, but it does prove that if you tell a falsehood long enough and with enough conviction, it will start being believed as truth.

I would urge you to put down your Chick tracts and other thingees you read and get Jurgen's three volume set FAITH OF THE FATHERS and study it for a while to see what genuine 1st century Christianity looks like. I will guarentee you that it does not look like whatever denomination you are in.

Cordially in Christ through the Blessed Virgin,

Brother Ed

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by thessalonian:
"Any Church that teaches that salvation is other than justification by faith [Romans 5:1] faith plus nothing should be shunned. "

Had you inserted the word alone (in the context or your thinking, for in my faith alone can be correct) after this I would have rejected it. But his is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches. You see faith to you and I are different. There is a "faith" which is a head nod, but of which the Lord says "not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven but those who DO THE WILL OF THE FATHER". My Catholic faith is a faith that has to be lived out. An active faith saves and that is a faith that includes works.

"justified by faith," not "justified by faith plus." Your continuous additions to God's Word are an abomination in His sight. If God had intended to add anything to faith He would have said so, and written it. He wrote faith, and only faith. The "alone" Is understood. The question remains, why the Catholic Church perverts the Word of God by insisting to add to it where there is nothing to add. A man is justified by faith, and nothing else. There is nothing else written there. Therefore it is by faith ALONE.

There is not one of us that defined faith as a head nod. If you can find one that said as much then quote us. If not withdraw your false accusation.

Your Catholic faith is one that has to be lived out. Good for you. Every Christian that is born again, saved, empowered by the Holy Spirit, lives his life according to the Holy Spirit. He doesn't lose his salvation, and doesn't have to worry about it. Nevertheless he lives his Christian life to the full--"with joy unspeakable and full of glory."

Faith does not include works, otherwise it would not be faith. Faith is trust; it is confidence in the word of another. I have faith in the promises of God. "Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Believe, i.e., have faith; not have faith plus works--just have faith. That is the only requirement for being saved. To believe, to have faith. Again you add to the Word of God when you add works to faith. It is by faith and by faith alone, as the Scriptures teach, that one is saved. A works salvation is a heresy taught by the Catholic Church.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

CathConvert -- You claim that the light of the Holy Spirit has led you to apostacize from our Lord's Church. Now that simply makes no sense at all because the Holy Spirit promised that He would not allow the gates of hell to prevail against Her. He would also not oppose that which He strove to build in the first century and forward.

#1. The Catholic church did not exist in the NT.

#2. The Christian Church that Christ spoke of - would eventually be persectuted and tortured by the Catholic Church in the dark ages.

#3. Christ gave the One True Church of God started at Sinai - FOREVER promises of His Holy Spirit and His teaching Word in Isaiah 59. Yet Christ said of them (in Mark 7) before the cross -that they had corrupted pure worship with the traditions of man.

Your argument has failed on so many counts that it is difficult to see how you could hope to sustain it in an open forum where not everyone is Catholic.

What is your reason for using that kind of approach?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[CatholicConvert]

#1. The Catholic church did not exist in the NT.

#2. The Christian Church that Christ spoke of - would eventually be persectuted and tortured by the Catholic Church in the dark ages.

#3. Christ gave the One True Church of God started at Sinai - FOREVER promises of His Holy Spirit and His teaching Word in Isaiah 59. Yet Christ said of them (in Mark 7) before the cross -that they had corrupted pure worship with the traditions of man.

Your argument has failed on so many counts that it is difficult to see how you could hope to sustain it in an open forum where not everyone is Catholic.

What is your reason for using that kind of approach?

Besides being the truth, I like to annoy mindless little twerps like you.

We asked you to knock off the nonsense about the Church and the sins of Her people and stick to doctrine. You just can't stay away. Real addict you are.

You and DHK are two people I really don't much even care to answer any more. Both of you live in la la land, as evidenced by DHK's last post where he criticizes Catholics for "adding to the Word of God" and then merrily tries to convince us that the addition of the word "alone" is really not his adding to the Word.

We have a nice state hospital in Harrisburg for people who are that delusional.

 

[Ray Berrian]

St. Augustine had a lot of wrong theology but one thing he did understand. He believed and even emphasized man's total inability to achieve righteousness and man's need for the Lord's grace alone. The Apostle Paul, Peter, Timothy and Martin Luther called it justification by faith. [Romans 5:1]

As the centuries passed the Roman Catholic Church's pendulum has moved totally in the opposite direction. The reason why she and Catholic posters hate Justification by Faith is because it totally destroys, like 9-11 in NYC, the whole system of Catholicism. Baptists understand perhaps most clearly what I am talking about.

I am not privy to all that the Catholic Church teaches but I do know that after a Catholic is baptized or claims to be in grace that they still have to produce good works for their church. There is the fact that every Catholic must at least attend the Easter Mass; then they have to turn to their saints including Mary to reach the attention of God, a kind of conduit in that they let the Lord know that a Christian has called from below in our earthly realm. It's almost like the Lord is not omniscient to deal with all of our prayers at one time, which does denigrate Chirst's Divine abilities within His Kingdom called the church. In fact their prayers to the saints divert their allegiance to the Lord and the worship of the only true God. Quite an interesting trick coming from the heart of the evil one, meaning the Devil.

If they are bad Catholics they have to be involved in 'penance' which I believe is doing whatever the priest tells them to do in order to be accepted back into the grace of God and to ammend their ways. We have here a whole system of merit that the Lord God hates. The Apostle Paul, Peter, Timothy and the Father's of the Faith well understood salvation from Christ alone, and from His grace, and by faith without any human effort.

This was all lost in the Dark Ages when Catholicism had its rule and human reign in matters and it still prevals to our day. Thank the Lord for the Protestant Reformation or we would still be struggling to please the Lord in hopes that would might at least reach the spiritual level that would advance us to the next phase, namely Purgatory. Luther, Knox, Zwingli, Calvin and other priests dropped out of this 'human works factory' to preach justification by faith in Jesus Christ. The whole of Europe was turned upside down because the light of truth once again brightened the hopes of people who wanted to have peace in their hearts and be sure of their hope of eternal life with Jesus Christ.

There are many aspects of Pelagianism that Catholics rightly do not believe, but their emphasis on faith plus keeping up appearances to obtain everlasting life, is disgusting. But, please understand that we also know that if our faith is real and lively, we will also have works that please the Lord. When you really love Jesus you don't need to have the Law/ Ten Commandments to tell you what to do. No saved person wants to violate the law of God because we have found Him, Whom to know is life everlasting.

The above last three sentences makes us distinct from Catholicism; praise be to the Lord Jesus our only Mediator. [I Timothy 2:5-6]

If you believe in free grace you are not obligated to please a minister or a priest; your only responsibility is to love Him more because He first loved you. [I John 3:2-3]

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

You and DHK are two people I really don't much even care to answer any more. Both of you live in la la land, as evidenced by DHK's last post where he criticizes Catholics for "adding to the Word of God" and then merrily tries to convince us that the addition of the word "alone" is really not his adding to the Word.

We have a nice state hospital in Harrisburg for people who are that delusional.

You are such a kind and caring person Ed.
The truth of the matter is that since the invention of this man-made religion in the fourth century, they have added scores, if not hundreds of additions, doctrines, changes, to the Word of God. They have wrongly accused Protestants what they themselves have hypocritcally been doing for centuries. In my above posts I have shown that. It has gone thus far uncontested. Lest you have a hard time understanding the English language let me explain this so very simple verse again.

Rom.5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

The verse plainly says "being justified by faith," we have peace with God. It does not say "being justified by faith plus works." That is your addition and perversion of God's Word. You accuse Luther of adding the word "alone," when you yourselves add works. You are hypocrites.

An example from the English language:
The door is unlocked with a key.
Luther: The door is unlocked with a key alone.
Catholic: The door is unlocked with a key plus good works.

The door is Heaven. The key is Christ. Through Christ alone is there entrance into Heaven. Good works will never get you there. It won't even help--not even grammatically.
You pervert and add to the Word of God unecessarily.
A man is justified by faith. That is what the Bible says. The alone is implied for there is nothing added. A grade one student can understand that; why can't a Catholic?
DHK

 

[trying2understand]

Originally posted by DHK:
An example from the English language:
The door is unlocked with a key.
Luther: The door is unlocked with a key alone.
Catholic: The door is unlocked with a key plus good works.

Good example, DHK.

You just don't understand it.

The key doesn't open the door by itself.

The person desiring to enter through the door must turn the key.

Your key alone won't do it.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi John,

You wrote, "The blessed Virgin is now "all holy" Mother of God."

"Chaire, kecharitomene, o kyrios meta sou" (Luke 1:28).

"Rejoice, you who have been fully graced, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28).

kecharitomene is a perfect, passive participle, which means it designates an action that has been fully completed in the past. If we see grace as our participation in the divine life of God - a pure gift that is an action upon us - then Mary has, at the time of the Anunciation, a full share in this.

When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are "Chaire, kecharitomene!" [Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both "rejoice" and "hail") is the salutation, like the word "hello" in "hello, Cathy!" The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name "Cathy" is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name "Mary," but the word kecharitomene.

Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as "highly favored daughter." Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is "daughter," a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). "Daughter" is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn't really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address "you" or "one" and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.

caritow

The root word is charitoo [caritow], which means "to grace, favor." On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of "grace" or "favor" in them.

ke

The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel's greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.

This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be "you are certified to teach." "Are" indicates a present state, "certified" shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.

mene

The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. "Passive" means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is "grace" and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that "someone graced Mary," rather than "Mary graced." Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied "someone" is God. "Participle," in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but "to grace" is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.

Again, there can be weaknesses in translation here. For example, St. Jerome and the King James translators tried to render kecharitomene as "full of grace." This translation is very good compared to many others, but because "grace" is no longer verb-like, it is also not passive as it is in Greek. Popular Catholic usage of this translation prompted this Protestant complaint:

The gratia plena [full of grace] of the Vulgate is too indefinite. It is right if it means "full of grace, which thou hast received"; wrong if it means "full of grace, which thou hast to bestow" [i.e. on Jesus]. (quoted in John McHugh's The Mother of Jesus in the New Testament)

[The complaint is legitimate when it says the translation is not clear about passivity. It is not legitimate if it is intended as an accusation that Catholics don't acknowledge the passive aspect of the word, for Pope John Paul II has clearly stressed the passive aspect of kecharitomene.]

an amateur's translation proposal

It seems that the best possible translation of kecharitomene into English might be "Are-graced." Please bear with the explanation. Kecharitomene is a single word direct address. If at all possible, this should be retained in the translation. To signify their unity, a hyphen is added between the two English words. The implied "you" ("[you] are graced") is omitted, because including it would shift the direct address to "you" and away from the root "grace." Because the term takes the place of Mary's name and signifies her identity, it may be capitalized (not strictly necessary). "Are-graced" does indicate a present state ("are") which is the result of a past action ("graced"), and it retains the passive quality of the original ("[you] are graced [by God]"). It is admittedly not natural for these verbs to be used in a noun-like way, but this is an attempt at a more literal than dynamic translation. Rejoice, Are-graced!

Sadly, no English translation retains all of the aesthetically pleasing alliterative qualities and possible word-play of the Greek's "Chaire, kecharitomene!"

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod, Q&A

[ October 17, 2003, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

[faithcontender]

Faithcontender --

You really had better stop and think about what you have done, sir.

You claim that the light of the Holy Spirit has led you to apostacize from our Lord's Church. Now that simply makes no sense at all because the Holy Spirit promised that He would not allow the gates of hell to prevail against Her. He would also not oppose that which He strove to build in the first century and forward.

I'm sorry CatholiConvert i would not stop and repent of what i have done, co'z i know whom i have believed and i'm persuaded that He is able to keep that which i've committed unto Him against that day.

My new life in Christ and the witness of the holy Spirit from His Word convince me that i'm His'.

My whole conscience is against Roman Catholicism.

Roman Catholicism is but paganism in Christianity's form. Her doctrine and practice tell us that She is an apostate christianity.

Both the Scriptures and History proved it. Her horrible inquistion tells us that she is but the enemy of God. Her traditions and beliefs are but the perversion of truth. Someday God will judge her for she is described as the whore of the revelation.

And God commanded all, including you to come out from her. So that you will not be partakers of her plagues.

Your problem may be in several areas, most notably that you were sleeping or in other ways disinterested in your CCD classes as a kid. Whatever it was, you obvious know nothing about the faith, which is the condition (lamentably) of most of the Catholics I meet. It seems that the 20th century was a high water mark for ignorance among Catholics. When I was a decieved Protestant and went out to try to git people "saved", I never met a Catholic who could sit down with me and give me a good defense from the Scriptures regarding the Faith.

Or maybe my priest before, is not "knowledgeable" as you are for He can not even satisfy to answer all my questions. Or maybe i'm not blind to see my priest's corrupt lifestyle. And by the way, my grade rating in Religion (cathechism) is good as far as i can remember, for how can i get the highest honor in our class if i failed in this subject?

You have fallen, hook, line and sinker, for a religion which did not exist prior to the 1500's and which has no basis in Scripture unless you severely twist and torture the words of our Lord and St. Paul.

I did not fall for the religion. I fell in love with Jesus who loved me and gave himself for me.

And the reasons why many christians did not appear publicly (though they were there, hiding somewhere ) before 1500's is because the Roman Catholic church during that time was busy like a roaring lion seeking to devour them.

And you may find (I am not God and I do not know your heart nor how He will deal with apostates) that you have, far from "coming home to Jesus" actually made a decision which will deprive you of many blessings in eternity which you could have had if you had stayed with the Church and worked as hard to prove Her doctrines as you did to study the falsities of Protestantism.

How can He deprive me of many blessings when i have it now? And He gives me the promise that He will come again to take and receive me.

Evangelical protestantism has been shilled in this country so long that even the laity of the Church is starting to use some of the jargon. That does not make error truth, but it does prove that if you tell a falsehood long enough and with enough conviction, it will start being believed as truth.

The true churches are multiplying today because the catholic church seems to lose Her temporal power, ( thank God for freedom of religion )though i believe she is going to take it back someday when there is opportunity. The Holy Bible is also now in the hands of the common man not in the so called "infallible magistrates" of the church.

By the way, is this the reason why the catholic church prohibited the publication of it before? Thanks for early translator like John Wycliffe, some did secure a copy of it and their lives were changed and freed from the bondage of Catholicism.

I would urge you to put down your Chick tracts and other thingees you read and get Jurgen's three volume set FAITH OF THE FATHERS and study it for a while to see what genuine 1st century Christianity looks like. I will guarentee you that it does not look like whatever denomination you are in.

I based my faith in the Holy Bible which is the infallible Word of God.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by trying2understand:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
An example from the English language:
The door is unlocked with a key.
Luther: The door is unlocked with a key alone.
Catholic: The door is unlocked with a key plus good works.

Good example, DHK.

You just don't understand it.

The key doesn't open the door by itself.

The person desiring to enter through the door must turn the key.

Your key alone won't do it. </font>[/QUOTE]Read the quote again. But read further on. The key is Christ. Christ unlocks the door. Christ carries me through. Christ indwells me. Christ empowers me.

Gal.2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1Cor.15:31 I die daily.

I don't do the works. I don't even walk through the door. Christ carries me through. I am crucified, put to death. It is Christ that liveth in me. The life which I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

faithcontender,

Spoken like a true prophet. Maybe you are not a clergyperson, but you have spoken the word of truth to the people. You have elevated the one Savior Who we love worship and adore.

 

[faithcontender]

faithcontender,

Spoken like a true prophet. Maybe you are not a clergyperson, but you have spoken the word of truth to the people. You have elevated the one Savior Who we love worship and adore.

Thanks Ray for kind remarks, i'm just a sinner saved by grace. All glory belongs to God.

 

[John Gilmore]

Originally posted by DHK:
I don't do the works. I don't even walk through the door. Christ carries me through. I am crucified, put to death. It is Christ that liveth in me. The life which I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God.
DHK

Well said.

The first and chief article is this,
1] That Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins, and was raised again for our justification, Rom. 4, 25.
2] And He alone is the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world, John 1, 29; and God has laid upon Him the iniquities of us all, Is. 53, 6.
3] Likewise: All have sinned and are justified without merit [freely, and without their own works or merits] by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood, Rom. 3, 23f
4] Now, since it is necessary to believe this, and it cannot be otherwise acquired or apprehended by any work, law, or merit, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us as St. Paul says, Rom. 3, 28: For we conclude that a man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law.
Smalcald Articles, Martin Luther, 1537

 

[CatholicConvert]

I'm sorry CatholiConvert i would not stop and repent of what i have done, co'z i know whom i have believed and i'm persuaded that He is able to keep that which i've committed unto Him against that day.

Deceived into OSAS too, are you? Well, let's just hope that you don't do what the Germans in Luther's Germany did when they figured it out. They finally realized that if you didn't need any works to make Heaven, then you could pretty much live any way you wanted to. You keep doing good now so you have a good answer on the Judgement Day.

My new life in Christ and the witness of the holy Spirit from His Word convince me that i'm His'

You were always His. Your baptism did that for you. What you don't realize is that what happened is that you came to a point of repentance and deeper commitment/understanding for Christ, but some sheep stealing wolf has led you to believe that your deeper level of commitment and awareness is actually you being "borned agin". Not so.

My whole conscience is against Roman Catholicism.

Wouldn't be if you knew what I know.

Roman Catholicism is but paganism in Christianity's form. Her doctrine and practice tell us that She is an apostate christianity.

Really? Well isn't that interesting. I found out just the opposite. I used to share your misbegotten beliefs also until I put down all the bigotograms I used to get in the mail and began to investigate for myself.

Know what? I found out that the teachings of the Church existed for 3 centuries BEFORE it became the "ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH" (at least according to those who say that St. Constantine started it when he converted).

Yeah, in fact, as I read the writings of the Early Fathers, I found it wasn't the Church which had the problem, it was ME!! The practices of the Early Church as early as 110AD are distinctly Catholic in praxsis. And here I could have SWORN they had to be Presbyterians!!

Both the Scriptures and History proved it. Her horrible inquistion tells us that she is but the enemy of God.

Really? Does that mean that when King David was killing innocent people that the Jewish nation was not the kingdom of God? Hmmmmm? What about when the Jews had all them idol-worshipping kings? Where in scripture does it say that the Jewish nation stopped being the kingdom of God and having the true worship during those times???

Her traditions and beliefs are but the perversion of truth. Someday God will judge her for she is described as the whore of the revelation.

No. You mixed up again. The "Whore of Revelation" is the Jewish theocratic kingdom which went from being the wife of God to a harlot in the streets.

And God commanded all, including you to come out from her. So that you will not be partakers of her plagues.

The Church is the Bride of Christ. As such, She may be dirty right now, but King Jesus will clean up His Bride and make Her radiant again one day. Hope you decide to come back where you belong.

BTW -- You keep listening to all that Premillenialist trash and you will never be able to get your head on straight.

Or maybe my priest before, is not "knowledgeable" as you are for He can not even satisfy to answer all my questions.

Could be. You know that the Church was infiltrated last century by communists, masons, and illuminati who were trying to destroy Her don't you? Perhaps he was one of them.

Or maybe i'm not blind to see my priest's corrupt lifestyle.

Oh, so he's a sinner, too? You mean that priests cannot fail or be human. By what standard did you judge him?

And by the way, my grade rating in Religion (cathechism) is good as far as i can remember, for how can i get the highest honor in our class if i failed in this subject?

Doesn't mean you LEARNED, just that you ABSORBED what you were fed. Learning takes thought. And, unfortunately for you and most Catholics last century, the level of teaching was next to putrid.

I did not fall for the religion. I fell in love with Jesus who loved me and gave himself for me.

If you love Jesus, why would you not love His Bride? And if you love Jesus, why would you not earnestly desire to unite with Him in the intimacy of the Eucharist? Sorry, feelings do not replace facts. You have left Jesus on the altar for a man made substitute (or prostitute) which feeds your emotions but not your soul.

And the reasons why many christians did not appear publicly (though they were there, hiding somewhere ) before 1500's is because the Roman Catholic church during that time was busy like a roaring lion seeking to devour them.

Sounds like you are one of them deluded Landmark Baptists. You know what's a real howl -- everyone in Protestantism swears that THEIR DENOMINATION was there at the beginning and that the wicked ole Catholic Church drove them underground. In other words, Christianity resembled the mess it is today with thousands of differing opinions.

Get real!! Learn some history, will you?

How can He deprive me of many blessings when i have it now? And He gives me the promise that He will come again to take and receive me.

Salvation is a free gift, but the "blessings" I am talking about are the levels of glory that each soul will experience. The amount of glory one recieves is proportionate to his life here on earth. You might be a star in Heaven when you could have been a blazing sun of glory.

The true churches are multiplying today because the catholic church seems to lose Her temporal power, ( thank God for freedom of religion )though i believe she is going to take it back someday when there is opportunity.

Excuse me....WHICH ONE is the "true church". You need to take a deep breath and look around you fella. There are HUNDREDS of Protestant denominations all claiming to have the "real truth of the Holy Spirit" or something like that. All claim to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, yet they agree on very little and in some cases, argue about very important things such as salvation issues.

Are you going to try to tell me with a straight face that such division, such confusion, such schisms are from the Spirit of God?

The Holy Bible is also now in the hands of the common man not in the so called "infallible magistrates" of the church.

Yup, and that is part of the problem. Every man who reads the Bible fancies himself a teacher, an intellect, a genius who should be listened to. Watching some of these geniuses argue in this room can be quite entertaining. I would rather defend a position which has been given to me by the Church which Jesus PROMISED would not be overrun by the gates of hell. That promise of Christ puts me on very safe ground.

By the way, is this the reason why the catholic church prohibited the publication of it before? Thanks for early translator like John Wycliffe, some did secure a copy of it and their lives were changed and freed from the bondage of Catholicism.

Wycliffe was just one of many who thought that he was smarter than those whom the Lord had led for 1500 years.

I based my faith in the Holy Bible which is the infallible Word of God.

So do all the other denominations with whom you disagree. So tell me, why should I believe that the interpretation you have been brainwashed to believe is any better than that of the next Protestant?

Give me an answer for that last question please.

 

[BobRyan]

Good question - why would anyone select the views and preferences of the RCC that it has brainwashed people to believe in the dark ages - over the Bible's direct and clear teaching.

Your point is well made (when accepted in general).

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ray Berrian]

Catholic Convert,

Since you seem to have a working knowledge of the Word of God, help me out by telling us what 'works of righteousness' are as spoken about in Titus 3:5. Whatever these works are Paul is saying they do not contribute to your salvation.

You said, 'You were always His. Your baptism did that for you.

Ray is saying, 'So now you believe that an newborn is not a sinner and in need of His atonement.'

You said, 'Really? Well isn't that interesting. I found out just the opposite. I used to
share your misbegotten beliefs also until I put down all the bigotograms I
used to get in the mail and began to investigate for myself.'

Ray is saying, 'Your misguided investigation has made you a bonified apostate Christian.

You said, 'Yeah, in fact, as I read the writings of the Early Fathers, I found it wasn't
the Church which had the problem, it was ME!! The practices of the Early
Church as early as 110AD are distinctly Catholic in praxsis. And here I could
have SWORN they had to be Presbyterians!!

Ray is saying, 'The apostles and Father of the church did not belief any of your add-on theology which has become like mega barnacles on the ship of your church. If you need them named again, I can do it for you. You know, the things that Paul speaks about when he said, 'works righteousness.'

Another writer said, 'Both the Scriptures and History proved it. Her horrible inquistion tells us that she is but the enemy of God.'

Ray is saying, 'When you read the brutality of the Inquisition, it should have thrown up a red flag as to the absolute wickedness in the hearts of those prelates.

You said, 'No. You mixed up again. The "Whore of Revelation" is the Jewish theocratic kingdom which went from being the wife of God to a harlot in the streets.

Ray is saying, 'Judiasm's leadership never murdered Christians, but even you know that Catholicism has won the blue ribbon in this area of religious control. That is why John wrote, 'I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.'

Another writer said, 'And God commanded all, including you to come out from her. So that you will not be partakers of her plagues.'

Ray is saying, 'The Woman of Babylon is Catholicism and all other liberal Protestants who deny that Christ is Divine and negate His atonement for sinners.' Those in the classification will remain on earth when Christ comes in the clouds for His church, if they do not know and love Jesus. If you are in this 'works righteousness' system and Christ is eclipsed by the images of Mary in the church, John bids you to 'Come out of her, My people . . . ' [Revelation 18:4]

You said, 'BTW -- You keep listening to all that Premillenialist trash and you will never be able to get your head on straight.'

Ray is saying, Premillenialism offers all the answers as to eschatology, the doctrines of the end times. In all honesty much of the O.T. becomes most confusing and out of joint without an understanding of Biblical prophecy. True men of God believe in the apostolic doctrine of Christ coming for His church [I Thess. 4:17] and Jesus coming with His triumphant and glorified saints as they together return from Heaven to earth. [Revelation 19:11] Interestingly enough Jesus mother is not on a white steed, but we are told that Jesus is coming to 'judge and make war.' [vs. 11d] Jesus does not tell us that Mary the Queen of Heaven will be there with joint authority. She will be in the onterage but only as numbered among the other saints. [vs. 14] Without Christ there would be no Second Coming and no Kingdom Age of 1,000 years on the earth. [Zechariah chapter fourteen.

Without our system of eschatology, Zechariah 14:1-21 can only be turned into a historical happening sometime in O.T. history. The truth is that verse five relates to Revelation 19:14. At the Second Coming Jesus will set His feet down in Israel and the Prophet Zechariah tell us that it will be on the Mount of Olives. [Zechariah 14:4] Rather difinitive wouldn't you say?

In our day and times there is always terrorism from the Palestinians and toward the Israelite people. This is what John meant by 'Jerusalem being a cup of trembling and a burdensome stone.' [Revelation 12:2-3] Jesus is coming for His people. [I Thessalonians 4:17] Our hope is steadfast and sure. [Philippians 1:6]

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
faithcontender,

Spoken like a true prophet. Maybe you are not a clergyperson, but you have spoken the word of truth to the people. You have elevated the one Savior Who we love worship and adore.

I agree. That was a good post.

In Christ,

Bob