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Could the New Birth Have Been Known About Pre-Incarnation?

Sai

Well-Known Member
If Old Testament saints had a conceptual understanding of spiritual regeneration it was not taught after Melchizedek.
Therefore from Adam to Noah to Shem scripture does not emphasize spiritual regeneration as we know it from the New Testament. However, I do believe that Jews did consider themselves saved by grace alone because of David’s writings.

This brings me to the Mosaic Law Code of 613 commandments. Paul in his letter to the Galatians explained how the law kept saved men like David and Isaiah in a perpetual state of spiritual immaturity. Because the law did not provide removal of one’s sins the OTS had his sin ever before him, the animal sacrifices merely covered them.

David and company were as very much saved as we are (and he knew it), but the law for David slew him and he couldn’t reach spiritual adulthood. God in his wisdom and for his own glory purposefully required David and company to attempt to keep an unkeepable set of commandments.

Today as saved brothers we are to keep a new set of commandments and these are detailed in the letters of the New Testament. Just like the OTS’ we too are saved by grace alone but our laws in the Law of Liberty, Law of Christ have no self destructive elements due to our sin nature that will keep us from living out our born again lives for Christ. We simply confess to God the sin we committed and God is faithful to forgive that sin as well as all of our sinning we forgot about during the day.

I think that is why the new birth understanding was hidden from Israel prior to the cross. Angels observe our behavior in the local churches. Angels obviously observed the OTS activities and their observances of the different laws God have to his saved people during the different ages of the history of man.
 

SGO

Well-Known Member
My Brothers and Sisters,

I appreciate the comments provided, especially the OT passages.

THIS IS AN EDITED AND CENSORED RESPONSE.
NO ONE ON ONE TO ME FIRST
JUST A BATTLE IN THE PUBLIC FORUMS
DR. BOB WARNED ME PUBLICLY WITHOUT A PRIVATE PM.
HE FORGOT MATTHEW 18
BAPTIST OVER BIBLE
 

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
The "gospel" was preached pre-incarnation:

Galatians 3:8 "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Today I was reading Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus in John 3 and at verse 10 it just struck me of the possibility that perhaps our Lord expected that the new birth could have been already known about. Obviously Nicodemus didn't know about it but did some other "master(s)"?

John 3:10 "Jesus answered and said unto him. 'Art thou a master of Israel and knowest not these things?'"
Circumcision of the heart IS the new birth.
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
The "gospel" was preached pre-incarnation:

Galatians 3:8 "And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed."

Hebrews 4:2 "For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it."

Today I was reading Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus in John 3 and at verse 10 it just struck me of the possibility that perhaps our Lord expected that the new birth could have been already known about. Obviously Nicodemus didn't know about it but did some other "master(s)"?

John 3:10 "Jesus answered and said unto him. 'Art thou a master of Israel and knowest not these things?'"
Its clear without the resurection no one was ' born again ' until then . So knowing about it and it happening are two different things .
 

Barry Johnson

Well-Known Member
Thanks. I can sort of see it but not "plainly" (skepticism has caused me to lose my gill) without the Holy Spirit stringing them together authoritatively it would be hard to say from those "pictures" a new birth teaching from a "master". Crossing the water out of Egypt might be another or into the promised land with God leading.
Found this article. Probably should have gone here first but, oh well, wanted to make a good impression.

Is the New Birth in the Old Testament? or Why Was Christ So Hard On Nicodemus in John 3:10? - Credo House Ministries

Is the New Birth in the Old Testament? or Why Was Christ So Hard On Nicodemus in John 3:10?
2011-01-1344COMMENTS BY C MICHAEL PATTON
John 3:1-10
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” 9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things?

One of the most difficult issues in Bible interpretation is to understand how the New Testament uses the Old. I have in front of me a massive commentary called Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament edited by C.K. Beale and D.A. Carson. It is a great work which seeks to give answers about how New Testament writers used the Old Testament. Sometimes it is very difficult to determine how the Old Testament is being used in the New. When it comes to Christ’s rebuke of Nicodemus in John 3, even the best of New Testament scholars are often perplexed, wondering what Christ meant when he rebuked Nicodemus concerning his ignorance.

In the above passage, Christ is talking about the new birth. To make things as simple as I can, Christ tells Nicodemus that no one can enter God’s kingdom unless he has been born again. This idea of being born again can also mean “born from above.” Nicodemus, though desirous to go against the grain of Jewish leadership and follow Christ, is confused by Christ’s teaching. He takes him quite literally believing that Christ is saying that we must pass through the birth canal twice. He responds with what seems to be a valid question to Christ’s confusing and, seemingly, radical statement. “How can these things be?”

Christ does not miss a beat in lowing the hammer on Nicodemus’ ignorance. “Are you the teacher of Israel and you don’t know these things?” In other words, Nicodemus was the theology professor of the day. He was a leader of the congregation of Israel. He was supposed to know these things! How could he lead without know this basic truth?

Concerning this John Calvin adds to the rebuke:

As Christ sees that he is spending his time and pains to no purpose in teaching so proud a man, he begins to reprove him sharply. And certainly such persons will never make any progress, until the wicked confidence, with which they are puffed up, be removed. . . But still Nicodemus, with all his magisterial haughtiness, exposes himself to ridicule by more than childish hesitation about the first principles. Such hesitation, certainly, is base and shameful. For what religion have we, what knowledge of God, what rule of living well, what hope of eternal life, if we do not believe that man is renewed by the Spirit of God? (Calvin’s Commentaries: John 3:10).

But how was Nicodemus supposed to know these things? Why does Christ come down so hard on him? Was the new birth taught in the Old Testament? If so, where?

These are good questions. The first thing we may try to do is find some parallel with such teaching explicitly taught in the Old Testament. New Testament scholars have offered some possibilities:

Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” (Jer 31:33 ESV)

Ezekiel 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, 20 that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God. (Eze 11:19 ESV)

If, indeed, these are the passages that Christ was speaking of then the process of being “born again/from above” would carry the connotation of a “new beginning” (Kostenberger, John, ECNT, 123). However, while I certainly see the redemptive theme present in both these passages, I don’t see the radical idea of being “birthed” again being explicit enough to bring about Christ’s rebuke.

Other passages proposed by scholars include Isa. 29:10, Deut. 30:6, Ps. 51: 6, and Ps. 51:10. I even heard a message from a prominent Old Testament professor who linked this text to Psalm 87:4-7, believing that the new birth is explicitly alluded to there. However, I think it is a bit of a stretch to attempt to find explicit reference to the new birth in any one Old Testament passage. Nevertheless, I am not arguing against Jesus. Nicodemus should have known about the new birth. Nicodemus should not have been surprised. As the “teacher of Israel” his hope and teaching should have been grounded here.

So where do we find the new birth in the Old Testament? I am glad you asked. While I don’t believe that there is any one passage of Scripture we can point to, I do believe there is a theological theme throughout the entire Old Testament that necessitates Christ’s new birth theology. It goes all the way back to the fall. The first time that death is mentioned in the Bible is in Gen. 2:17 where God warns Adam not to eat from the tree of knowledge: “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” The consequence of eating the tree was death. Just one chapter later, Adam and Eve both ate from the tree, but they did not die. In fact, Adam lived 930 years! How is it that he died “the day” he ate of it?

Theologians have wrestled with this question for some time. It would seem that the best answer we can give is that death entered into the human condition on that day in two ways: 1) Man was forced out of the Garden and no longer had access to the tree of life (Gen. 3:22-23). In this sense, that day they were prevented from eternal life and therefore that day death began. 2) Most importantly for our purpose here, the day they ate of the tree of life they died spiritually. Let me state the obvious: spiritual death is the opposite of spiritual life. Throughout the Scriptures humanity is shown to be in its natural condition spiritually dead. “And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,” “But God . . . made us alive together in Christ” (Eph. 2:4). Since the spiritual death of the first man, Adam, every human ever born has been still-born spiritually. This is what theologians refer to as “imputed sin.” Because of our connection with the sin and death of Adam, we too have inherited sin and death (Rom. 5:17-19).

Being born again is nothing less that a complete restoration of spiritual life. All of humanity was separated from God in Eden. Through the cross that separation was bridged. In Adam we have the imputation of sin and death. Through Christ we have the imputation of righteousness and life. We are either found death in Adam or alive in Christ.

Nicodemus was rebuked not because there was a particular passage in the Old Testament that escaped his notice, but because he was unaware of humanities spiritual condition since Gen. 3. Nicodemus should have known that people must be born again in order to inherit eternal life and enter the Kingdom precisely because he should have know that they were dead. The only hope for a dead man is resurrection. The only hope for spiritually dead people is to be born again or “from above.”
Continued below
Its clear without the resurection no one was ' born again ' until then . So knowing about it and it happening are two different things .
 

Van

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hi SGO, I have not read past your opening post.

Here are some of the OT citations that Jesus might have been referring to:

Isa 44:3 ‘For I will pour out water on the thirsty land, And streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants; (NASB)

Here the New Covenant in His blood is being foreshadowed.

Ezekiel 37:9 (NLT) Then he said to me, “Speak a prophetic message to the winds, son of man. Speak a prophetic message and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, O breath, from the four winds! Breathe into these dead bodies so they may live again.’”

Here new life (i.e. being born anew) is foreshadowed.

Prov 30:4-5. Here both the coming Christ and salvation within Him are foreshadowed.

But more broadly, the myth that because a person was "born a Jew" (a descendant of Abraham) they were saved is being addressed. All through the OT, we see blood line Jews lost because of non-belief. Dying in the wilderness for example. No, a Jew had to obtain new life through faith in God, and Nicodemus should have know this. One more, Ezekiel 47:22 teaches those not of the blood line shall be allotted a share.
 

SGO

Well-Known Member
Hi SGO, I have not read past your opening post.

Here are some of the OT citations that Jesus might have been referring to:

Isa 44:3 ‘For I will pour out water on the thirsty land, And streams on the dry ground;
I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring And My blessing on your descendants; (NASB)

Here the New Covenant in His blood is being foreshadowed.

Ezekiel 37:9 (NLT) Then he said to me, “Speak a prophetic message to the winds, son of man. Speak a prophetic message and say, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Come, O breath, from the four winds! Breathe into these dead bodies so they may live again.’”

Here new life (i.e. being born anew) is foreshadowed.

Prov 30:4-5. Here both the coming Christ and salvation within Him are foreshadowed.

But more broadly, the myth that because a person was "born a Jew" (a descendant of Abraham) they were saved is being addressed. All through the OT, we see blood line Jews lost because of non-belief. Dying in the wilderness for example. No, a Jew had to obtain new life through faith in God, and Nicodemus should have know this. One more, Ezekiel 47:22 teaches those not of the blood line shall be allotted a share.


Thank you for the OT references.
From your and other poster's notes one can see a possibility of some "master" teaching a spiritual change.

I wonder if there are OT passages that relate a person's experience of the new birth that happens similar to today's, that is, an experience that can happen in a very short period of time.
 

Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
DOCTRINAL DIVINITY ~ BOOK IV

OF THE ACTS OF THE GRACE OF GOD TOWARDS AND UPON HIS ELECT IN TIME

Chapter 1: Of the Manifestation and Administration of the Covenant of Grace:

1. First, The agreement there is between them.


1a. THE OLD TESTAMENT & THE NEW TESTAMENT
Manifestations and Administrations of GOD'S ONE ETERNAL Covenant of Grace:
agree in the efficient cause, God: the covenant of grace, in its original constitution in eternity, is of God, and therefore it is called his covenant, being made by him; "I have made a covenant--my covenant I will not break", #Ps 89:3,34 and whenever any exhibition or manifestation of this covenant was made to any of the patriarchs, as to Abraham, David, &c. it is ascribed to God, "I will make my covenant--he hath made with me an everlasting covenant", #Ge 17:2 2Sa 23:5 so the new covenant, or new administration of it, runs in this form, "I will make a new covenant", &c. #Heb 8:8.


1b. THE OLD TESTAMENT & THE NEW TESTAMENT Manifestations and Administrations of GOD'S ONE ETERNAL Covenant of Grace: Agree in the moving cause, the sovereign mercy, and free grace of God, which moved God to make the covenant of grace at first, #Ps 89:2,3. And every exhibition of it under the former dispensation, is a rich display of it, and therefore it is called, the "mercy promised to the fathers" in his "holy covenant", #Lu 1:72 and which has so largely appeared in the coming of Christ, which is ascribed to "the tender mercy of our God", that "grace" and "truth", in the great abundance of them, are said to come by him; by which names the covenant of grace, under the gospel dispensation, is called, in distinction from that under the Mosaic one, #Lu 1:78 Joh 1:17.



1c. THE OLD TESTAMENT & THE NEW TESTAMENT Manifestations and Administrations of GOD'S ONE ETERNAL Covenant of Grace Agree In the Mediator, who is Christ; there is but one Mediator of the covenant of grace, let it be considered under what dispensation it will; even Christ, who under the former dispensation was revealed as the seed of the woman that should bruise the serpent's head, and make atonement by his sufferings and death, signified by the expiatory sacrifices, under the law; the Shiloh, the peaceable One, and the Peace Maker, the living Redeemer of Job, and of all believers under the Old Testament. Moses, indeed, was a Mediator, but he was only a typical one.

There is but "one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus"; there never was any other, and he is the "Mediator of the new covenant", #1Ti 2:5 Heb 12:24.



1d. THE OLD TESTAMENT & THE NEW TESTAMENT Manifestations and Administrations of GOD'S ONE ETERNAL Covenant of Grace: Agree in the subjects of these covenants, or administrations of the covenants of grace, the elect of God, to whom the blessings of it are applied. It was with the chosen people of God in Christ, the covenant of grace was originally made; and according to the election of grace are the spiritual blessings of it dispensed to the children of men, #Ps 89:3 Eph 1:3,4 so they were under the former dispensation, from the beginning of the world, to the seed of the woman, in distinction from the seed of the serpent; to the remnant according to the election of grace among the Jews, the children of the promise that were counted for the seed; and election, or elect men, obtain the blessings of the covenant in all ages, and under the present dispensation, more abundantly, and in greater numbers.



1e. THE OLD TESTAMENT & THE NEW TESTAMENT Manifestations and Administrations of GOD'S ONE ETERNAL Covenant of Grace: Agree in the blessings of it; they are the same under both administrations.

Salvation and redemption by Christ is the great blessing held forth and enjoyed under the one as under the other, #2Sa 23:5 Heb 9:15.

Justification by the righteousness of Christ, which the Old Testament church had knowledge of, and faith in, as well as the new, #Isa 45:24,25 Ro 3:21-23.

Forgiveness of sin through faith in Christ, all the prophets bore witness to; and the saints of old, as now, had as comfortable an application of it, #Ps 32:1,5 Isa 43:25 Mic 7:18 Ac 10:43.

Regeneration, spiritual circumcision, and sanctification, were what men were made partakers of under the first, as under the second administration of the covenant, #De 30:6 Php 3:3.

Eternal life was made known in the writings of the Old Testament, as well as in those of the New; and was believed, looked for, and expected by the saints of the former, as of the latter dispensation, #Joh 5:39 Heb 11:10,16 Job 19:26,27.

In a word, they and we eat the same spiritual meat, and drink the same spiritual drink, for they drank of that Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ, #1Co 10:3,4.


Chapter 2: Of the Covenant of Grace in the Patriarchal State

Chapter 3: Of the Covenant of Grace under the Mosaic
Dispensation


Chapter 4: Of the Covenant of Grace in the Times of David
and the Prophets


Chapter 5: Of the Abrogation of the Old Covenant

Chapter 6: Of the Law of God

Chapter 7: Of the Gospel
 
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Alan Gross

Well-Known Member
2. Secondly, In some things there is a disagreement between these two administrations of the covenant of Grace.



2a. Under the first administration saints looked forward to Christ that was to come, and to the good things that were to come by him, and so were waiting, expecting, and longing for the enjoyment of them; but under the second and new administration, believers look backwards to Christ as being come, before whose eyes he is evidently set forth in the word and ordinances, as crucified and slain; and they look to the blessings of the covenant through him as brought in; to peace, pardon, atonement, righteousness, redemption, and salvation, as wrought out and finished.



2b. There is a greater clearness and evidence of things under the one than under the other; the law was only a shadow of good things to come; did not so much as exhibit the image of them, at least but very faintly. The obscurity of the former dispensation, was, signified by the veil over the face of Moses, when he spoke to the children of Israel; so that they could not see to the end of what was to be abolished; whereas, believers under the present dispensation, with open face, with faces unveiled, behold, as in a glass, the glory of the Lord clearly and plainly, #Heb 10:1 #2Co 3:13,18 then, comparatively, it was night, now broad day; the day has broke, and the shadows are fled and gone.



2c. There is more of a spirit of liberty, and less of bondage, under the one, than under the other; saints under the one differed little from servants, being in bondage under the elements of the world; but under the other are Christ's freemen, and receive not the spirit of bondage again, to fear; but the spirit of adoption, crying Abba, Father; which is a free spirit, and brings liberty with it; and for this reason the two different administrations of the covenant, are signified, the one by Hagar, the bondwoman, because it gendered to bondage, and those under it were in such a state; and the other by Sarah, the freewoman, an emblem of Jerusalem, which is free, and the mother of us all, #Ga 4:1-3,24-26 Ro 8:15.



2d. There is a larger and more plentiful effusion of the Spirit, and of his gifts and graces, under the one than under the other; greater measures of grace, and of spiritual light and knowledge were promised, as what would be communicated under the new and second administration of the covenant; and accordingly grace, in all its fulness and "truth", in all its clearness and evidence, are "come by Jesus Christ", #Joh 1:17 see #Jer 31:31-34.



2e. The latter administration of the covenant extends to more persons than the former. The Gentiles were strangers to the covenants of promise, had no knowledge nor application of the promises and blessings of the covenant of grace, except now and then, and here and there one; but now the blessing of Abraham is come upon the Gentiles, and they are fellow heirs of the same grace and privileges, and partakers of the promises in Christ by the gospel, #Eph 2:12 3:6 Ga 3:14.



2f. The present administration of the covenant of grace, will continue to the end of the world*; it will never give way to, nor be succeeded by another; it is that which remains, in distinction from that which is done away, and so exceeds in glory: the ceremonial law, under which the former covenant was administered, was "until the time of reformation", until Christ came and his forerunner; "The law and the prophets were until John", the harbinger of Christ, the fulfilling end of them; see #2Co 3:11 #Heb 9:10 Lu 16:16.

(*Hint: God DID NOT "INTRODUCE" an Entire Series of Star Wars Movies, from the PAST or The FUTURE, once He got out into the symbolic revealation of The Book of Revelation. THERE IS NO NEW NEWS PRESENTED IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION.

GOD'S ADMINISTRATIONS OF THE COVENANT OF GRACE (1ST & 2ND, OLD & NEW) ARE NOT GOING TO FLY OFF THE HANDLE AND HAVE JESUS FLYING TO AND FRO, Preaching to Jews, IN PERSON, because Hardsheel Baptist's won't.

The Present Administration of the Covenant of Grace, will continue to The End of the World*; is also a confirmation of the 66 times The New Testament Teaches The Imminant Second Coming of Jesus Christ, as The End of The World.

9.0.0 > NT Intro iv: SIXTY-SIX NEW TESTAMENT Verses Teach The SECOND COMING of JESUS CHRIST & THE END of TIME.

If you think a 'mill' is involved in The End Times, which could END FOREVER, TODAY, it is NOT because it can NOT be shown, or read, or taught from The BOOK.

Just as this is, also, confirmation:
The Present Administration of the Covenant of Grace, will continue to The End of the World*

NO GOING BACK TO MOSES SACRIFICES and NO, REVELATION HAS NOT ALREADY HAPPENED.

MAY JESUS REBUKE SATAN.

The Scofield Bible—The Book That Made Zionists of America’s Evangelical Christians
By Maidhc Ó Cathail
Washington Report on Middle East Affairs

“For a nation to commit the sin of anti-Semitism
brings inevitable judgement.”


cathail.jpg


—The New Scofield Study Bible



2g. The ordinances of them are different. The first covenant had ordinances of divine service; but those, comparatively, were carnal and worldly, at best but typical and shadowy, and faint representations of divine and spiritual things; and were to continue but for a while, and then to be shaken and removed, and other ordinances take place, which shall not be shaken, but remain to the second coming of Christ; and in which he is more clearly and evidently set forth, and the blessings of his grace, #Heb 9:1,10 12:27.



2h. Though the promises and blessings of grace under both administrations are the same, yet differently exhibited; under the former dispensation, not only more darkly and obscurely, but by earthly things, as by the land of Canaan, and the outward mercies of it; but under the latter, as more clearly and plainly, so more spiritually and nakedly, as they are in themselves spiritual, heavenly, and divine; and delivered out more free, and unclogged of all conditions, and so called "better promises", and the administration of the covenant, in which they are, a "better testament"; God having "provided" for New Testament saints some "better thing", at least held forth in a better manner; that Old Testament saints might not be "made perfect" without them, #Heb 8:6 7:22 11:40.
 
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