"Country Preachers"

[rlvaughn]

You can ignore common sense, but that doesn't change it. You are looking for a rule without exceptions. I've said there is one. Your "argument" is weak in that it tries to prove a norm by finding one exception. That's backwards thinking. Common is as I've stated before, sadly uncommon, especially on online forums, it seems.

You have proved nothing from common sense or otherwise, only talked about vague possibilities of the languages of the Roman Empire. Your "argument" is weak in that it tries to prove something without giving any real proof, just generalities you hope will prop it up.

 

[JonShaff]

Here is my testimony towards the OP

I was saved and "discipled" at a country church. My calling was confirmed by the Church. The circle of influence i had (other preachers and congregations we affiliated with) did not have set methods of teaching people how to read and interpret the Bible. Preaching was good if it was loud, preaching is good if it made you say, "Well, i've never seen that before in that text!" Preaching was good if it hit on my theological hobby horse or pet peeves.

Then i got introduced to commentaries, expositional preaching, hermeneutics, grammar, historical context...reading guys like Haddon Robinson, Brian Chapel, attending Workshops with Jim Shaddix, SWBTS, Steve Smith, Vodie Bauchum, Steve Lawson, Etc etc...Then i started going to Seminary (LU), Learning Greek (Bill Mounce), etc etc...And now i feel like i'm better equipped for the work that I'm called to Do. I feel like i'm a long ways off from where i need to be as a Pastor/Teacher, but i feel like i've came a long way from where i was.

And i do not want to knock the country church thought, but for me, i am in a more grounded place in my life by the Grace of God.

 

[John of Japan]

I do not recall a single error that has infested the Doctrine once delivered to the Saints has come from a country trained preacher.

But in every case that I can dredge up from my faulty memory has been from educated "religious" folks who set about to establish a "doctrine" out of agenda, privilege, or seeking recognition.

The two main propagators of modern Ultra-Dispensationalism were without any theological education: John O'Hair and Cornelius Stam. William Miller, founder of the infamous Millerites, had not theological education. In Korea in the 1990s a teenager propgated a view of the Rapture that paralleled Miller's in heresy and damage to the cause. Ellen G. White, 7th Day Adventist heretic leader, had no theological education. I could go on and on.

 

[rlvaughn]

I do not recall a single error that has infested the Doctrine once delivered to the Saints has come from a country trained preacher.

But in every case that I can dredge up from my faulty memory has been from educated "religious" folks who set about to establish a "doctrine" out of agenda, privilege, or seeking recognition.

The two main propagators of modern Ultra-Dispensationalism were without any theological education: John O'Hair and Cornelius Stam. William Miller, founder of the infamous Millerites, had not theological education. In Korea in the 1990s a teenager propgated a view of the Rapture that paralleled Miller's in heresy and damage to the cause. Ellen G. White, 7th Day Adventist heretic leader, had no theological education. I could go on and on.

Agedman's post and John's reply point up the difficulty of trying to resolve the issue based on experience. There are plenty of heretics to go around, from self-appointed untaught "prophets" to highly-trained seminary graduates. They all can go astray like lost sheep.

Another area of difficulty is just what is meant by theological education (apprenticeship, on-the-job training, seminary education?). Off the pens of most people it probably means a seminary education, but that is not the only way to get a theological education, and often folks may not even be discussing the same thing if the words are not defined.

 

[delizzle]

If you want to clearly and precisely understand what the author intended by his words, you must understand the language he spoke in,

Not necessarily, a good study bible does it all for you.

 

[agedman]

The two main propagators of modern Ultra-Dispensationalism were without any theological education: John O'Hair and Cornelius Stam. William Miller, founder of the infamous Millerites, had not theological education. In Korea in the 1990s a teenager propgated a view of the Rapture that paralleled Miller's in heresy and damage to the cause. Ellen G. White, 7th Day Adventist heretic leader, had no theological education. I could go on and on.

Are you referring to John O'Hair who was a radio preacher in the '20's?

And is this the Cornelius Stam was a missionary (I had to google his name because I wasn't familiar) who was part of the China Inland Mission group. He and his wife Betty were murdered by the communist Chinese army.

I am rather not recalling to whom you might be referring, so further information would be good.

William Miller was a person who just ran off the rails (so to speak) sort of like that David Koresh or Jim Jones.

Of all that you listed, Ellen G. White was the most influential (imo) but I am reminded that her sort have always been around in one fashion or another. Did not the apostle have to confront issues concerning judaizers?

But the larger issues, are such as has infested the Baptist's both from an eschatological and a soteriological views have been from those supposed folks who were educated theologians.

For example: Setting aside the charismatic folks and attending more toward folks who truly had influence among Baptists from the present to the ancients, Tim LaHaye / Hal Lindsey (followed Darby), Billy Graham (chased after popularity and popularized the presentation of the gospel and allowing further infesting of many churches with modernism), J. Frank Norris (desired social change and power), further back in history Pelagius (human determination), and even further back would be Valentinus (gnostic).

These folks had a large impact on the gospel in their time, and the ripples continue to this day.

Here is the basic premise from which I posted:

There will always be those who chase after some powerbroker agenda driven person. For human's seem to be attracted to those who give answers, no matter how foolish.

But, consider that theological error remarkably from those who are educated has a far greater impact, for then there is this certain sense of granted entitlement that an educated person should automatically be able to discern truth, and would never propagate a lie.

So, if the author of confusion wants to cause great havoc in the matter of the assembly, it will be from people adopting a way of thinking that comes not from typically the uneducated, but those deceivers who have education and purpose to establish their own truth rather then that of the Scriptures. Often, imo, this is done with the agenda to detract from a Scriptural view that is opposed to those who want to hold power and authority in their own camp. For example: Jesuit Luis De Alcazar (1554-1613) who schemed to pervert the Scriptures by inventing the preterits thinking.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Common sense tells us that they knew the common language, but common sense is in short supply these days.

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

We can easily imagine that many of the Jews who were saved and added to the church that day were also called by God to preach the gospel back in their homelands. We also know that most of them did not know the common language of the disciples; otherwise, there is no miracle at Pentecost. Common sense tells us that they did not have to learn biblical languages to be effective in spreading the gospel and winning others to Christ.

 

[Reynolds]

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

We can easily imagine that many of the Jews who were saved and added to the church that day were also called by God to preach the gospel back in their homelands. We also know that most of them did not know the common language of the disciples; otherwise, there is no miracle at Pentecost. Common sense tells us that they did not have to learn biblical languages to be effective in spreading the gospel and winning others to Christ.

Common sense? It is not common anymore.

 

[thatbrian]

Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

We can easily imagine that many of the Jews who were saved and added to the church that day were also called by God to preach the gospel back in their homelands. We also know that most of them did not know the common language of the disciples; otherwise, there is no miracle at Pentecost. Common sense tells us that they did not have to learn biblical languages to be effective in spreading the gospel and winning others to Christ.

First, we were speaking about LEADERS of the first churches. Second, the text you've quoted does not rule out that these men knew multiple languages.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

And now i feel like i'm better equipped for the work that I'm called to Do. I feel like i'm a long ways off from where i need to be as a Pastor/Teacher, but i feel like i've came a long way from where i was.

You are undoubtedly better equipped - not because you have amassed knowledge, but because you have acquired knowledge while keeping a spirit of humility. Knowledge can easily breed pride (I Cor. 8:1).

Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

The sorrow does not lie in the wisdom or the knowledge itself; the sorrow lies in the natural tendency of man to become independent of God and rely on our knowledge. If our knowledge leads us further from rather than closer to God, we have made a terrible mistake.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

First, we were speaking about LEADERS of the first churches.

My apologies. I thought we were discussing leaders of the church in general.

Second, the text you've quoted does not rule out that these men knew multiple languages.

The point was not how many languages they knew, but rather the need to learn biblical languages. It is clear they didn't know the language in which the disciples were speaking.

 

[Jerome]

And is this the Cornelius Stam was a missionary (I had to google his name because I wasn't familiar) who was part of the China Inland Mission group. He and his wife Betty were murdered by the communist Chinese army.

I am rather not recalling to whom you might be referring, so further information would be good.

No, John Stam was Betty's husband. I believe Cornelius was his younger brother who went off the rails and disavowed baptism. Cornelius's sect (they often go by "Berean" or "Grace") is one of a few Christian movements that have downplayed baptism (Quakers, Salvation Army, and Evangelical Free are others).

SBTS professor Carl Stam's tribute to John and Betty Stam: carlstam.org/familyheritage/jbstam.html

John Campbell Stam of Emmanuel Baptist, Enid, Ok, has another: emmanuelenid.org/archive/component/k2/item/1177-triumph-in-death-the-legacy-of-john-and-betty-stam-in-china

Letters of Betty and her husband John Stam here:

bdcconline.net/en/stories/s/stam-elisabeth-betty-alden-scott.php

John, since our arrival, crowds have thronged the chapel. The seats are filled in the chapel, the courtyard, and our home....Katie and I distribute tracts while keeping up our Chinese study, and the eloquent woman preacher attracts many people.

[Betty was already working a missionary. John married and joined her in 1933; they were killed by the Communists the next year]

Dear beloved CIM brethren in Shanghai:
Yesterday, some Communist soldiers, passing through Jingde, captured us and brought us to this place. I requested that they allow my wife and child to bring a letter from Jingde to you there, but they were not willing....They demand twenty thousand dollars for our release. May God...support us by his grace, that we may be able to stand firm with indomitable courage. He is almighty God! Yours in the Lord, John Stam. Miaoshou, December 7, 1934.

 

[thatbrian]

The sorrow does not lie in the wisdom or the knowledge itself; the sorrow lies in the natural tendency of man to become independent of God and rely on our knowledge.

This kind of anti-intellectualism is sad, but not shocking. It's why I started this thread, to expose it.

The sorrow, Bob, comes from understanding. Have you not heard the expression, "Ignorance is bliss"? When you have much knowledge you understand the depth of depravity that a simple-minded person is completely unaware of.

 

[John of Japan]

Are you referring to John O'Hair who was a radio preacher in the '20's?

Ultra-Dispensationalist John C. O'Hair lived from 1876-1958, so it's probably the same guy.

And is this the Cornelius Stam was a missionary (I had to google his name because I wasn't familiar) who was part of the China Inland Mission group. He and his wife Betty were murdered by the communist Chinese army.

The martyred missionary was John Stam, who was actually the brother of the Ultra-Dispensationalist Cornelius Stam (1908-2003).

 

[agedman]

No, John Stam was Betty's husband. I believe Cornelius was his younger brother who went off the rails and disavowed baptism. Cornelius's sect (they often go by "Berean" or "Grace") is one of a few Christian movements that have downplayed baptism (Quakers, Salvation Army, and Evangelical Free are others).

SBTS professor Carl Stam's tribute to John and Betty Stam: carlstam.org/familyheritage/jbstam.html

John Campbell Stam of Emmanuel Baptist, Enid, Ok, has another: emmanuelenid.org/archive/component/k2/item/1177-triumph-in-death-the-legacy-of-john-and-betty-stam-in-china

Letters of Betty and her husband John Stam here:

bdcconline.net/en/stories/s/stam-elisabeth-betty-alden-scott.php


[Betty was already working a missionary. John married and joined her in 1933; they were killed by the Communists the next year]

John also had the name Cornelius.

I grabbed this quickly off the web: John Cornelius Stam and Elisabeth Alden "Betty" Stam were American Christian missionaries to China, with the China Inland Mission, during the Chinese Civil War. The missionary couple were murdered by Communist Chinese soldiers in 1934. Wikipedia

 

[Jerome]

John also had the name Cornelius.

Yes, a bit confusing.

brothers:
John Cornelius Stam 1907-1934
Cornelius Richard Stam 1908-2003

Obituary of Cornelius, mentions John's death in China, and Cornelius becoming a follower of O'Hair:

articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-03-14/news/0303140148_1_paterson-popular-radio-evangelist-hope-mission

 

[Pastor_Bob]

This kind of anti-intellectualism is sad, but not shocking. It's why I started this thread, to expose it.

And, this is why I rarely choose to respond to your posts or even answer your direct questions. I am not a fan of the “I’m smarter than you; therefore, I am right” attitude. It is quite obvious that most on here will disagree with other members; otherwise, what’s the point of having a debate forum. Even when I vehemently disagree, I try to never be condescending toward those with whom I disagree.

Choosing to remain silent is not an indication of ignorance, it is a sign of wisdom. Think about it.

 

[thatbrian]

And, this is why I rarely choose to respond to your posts or even answer your direct questions. I am not a fan of the “I’m smarter than you; therefore, I am right” attitude. It is quite obvious that most on here will disagree with other members; otherwise, what’s the point of having a debate forum. Even when I vehemently disagree, I try to never be condescending toward those with whom I disagree.

Choosing to remain silent is not an indication of ignorance, it is a sign of wisdom. Think about it.

That post was condescending and arrogant. (think about it). It also doesn't answer my objections.

 

[agedman]

This kind of anti-intellectualism is sad, but not shocking. It's why I started this thread, to expose it.

The sorrow, Bob, comes from understanding. Have you not heard the expression, "Ignorance is bliss"? When you have much knowledge you understand the depth of depravity that a simple-minded person is completely unaware of.

I disagree.

My experience has been that more often the "Intellectual" pursuit leads to arrogance and self righteousness.

A person has basically one of two attitudes upon graduation. One is "I'm here with all the answers and it is my job to tell you how to think." and the other is "I'm here by the grace of God, and together (God and I) will attend to the nourishment of the assembly for His glory."

I have yet to meet a true man of God who is a country preacher who is puffed up, but I have meet untold numbers of seminary graduates that are.

 

[thatbrian]

I disagree.

My experience has been that more often the "Intellectual" pursuit leads to arrogance and self righteousness.

A person has basically one of two attitudes upon graduation. One is "I'm here with all the answers and it is my job to tell you how to think." and the other is "I'm here by the grace of God, and together (God and I) will attend to the nourishment of the assembly for His glory."

I have yet to meet a true man of God who is a country preacher who is puffed up, but I have meet untold numbers of seminary graduates that are.

"Puffed up" is one problem. The blind leading the blind is another. Men ignorant of the original languages and cultural background often do more harm than good when they open their mouths.