Covenant of Redemption

[Iconoclast]

Silverhair asked this question;
↑

The word Trinity is right next to the term Covenant of Redemption
I would assume that you were trying to make a point with your post. I provided you with scripture in support of the Trinity do you have scripture in support of the "Covenant of Redemption"

Hello Silverhair,

I did not get to respond to your question about providing some scripture on this.
I will offer two sections, with more to follow;
Jn6:37-44

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here, the Lord Jesus Christ reveals a Covenant agreement with the Father and Spirit. A multitude of sinners worldwide, is going to be given ,to The Son. The Son is going to die to fully redeem them from under the laws curse.
Gal 4:4
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

So we have the Father sending the Son to live perfectly, with perfect law keeping, on behalf of that multitude given to Him. No more, No less.
This took place before time was, and has been progressively revealed through the Church;
Eph.3;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is another section; Hebrews 2:9-16

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

The Children. the church, the brethren, they who are sanctified, the seed of Abraham
These are the focus of this Covenant of Redemption.
This was first, before all the other Covenants. It was planned and purposed and then revealed in scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

We have Ezk 34...in which 17x God sayshe is going to search out His sheep, He is going to seek and save them.

23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd.

24 And I the Lord will be their God, and my servant David a prince among them; I the Lord have spoken it.


In John !0 Jesus describes Himself as the one who fulfills it,

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[Iconoclast]

25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.


In Hebrews 6 we read this;
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

 

[AustinC]

Jesus explains to us the purpose of the parables in the covenant of redemption.

*Matthew 13:10-17*
Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

 

[JonC]

The Children. the church, the brethren, they who are sanctified, the seed of Abraham
These are the focus of this Covenant of Redemption.
This was first, before all the other Covenants. It was planned and purposed and then revealed in scripture.

So the "covenant of redemption" focuses on believers and is not actually in the Bible while the New Covenant focuses on Christ and is in the Bible. The "covenant of redemption", while not technically biblical, is a way of focusing on men who were under the Old and New Covenants.

The strange thing is Scripture does talk about those exact same people, but under very different covenants.

Do you believe Scripture should be revised by taking out the actual Covenants listed in God's Word and reorganized to incorporate the covenants under Covenant Theology?

 

[JonC]

Jesus explains to us the purpose of the parables in the covenant of redemption.

*Matthew 13:10-17*
Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: “‘“You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.” For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

What part of the New Covenant do you believe the covenant of redemption incorporates (historically redemption was considered the work of Christ as the New Covenant)? Do you believe in the New Covenant at all, or in your opinion is the covenant of redemption simply a new name for this Covenant?

I ask because what you and @Iconoclast has attributed to the covenant of redemption is attributed to the New Covenant in the Bible.

 

[JonC]

Do you understand what I am asking?

In case, I'll clarify -

You two are taking things the New Testament places under the New Covenant and putting them under something you call "the covenant of redemption" and claiming the "covenant of redemption" is biblical because Scripture talks about those things even though Scripture talks about them as being under the New Covenant.

The only way that is biblical is if you are simply rejecting the biblical use of "New Covenant" and renaming it something else. But it certainly looks like you are trying to divide up the New Covenant into little covenants.

What may be obvious to many members on this forum is that people who hold Reformed Theology are conditioned to read Scripture differently. While most non-Reformed Christians appreciate and learn from Reformed preachers and theologians (such as R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, John Piper, Paul Enns, ect.) along side non-Reformed preachers and scholars, many Reformed Christians typically live on a diet of Reformed pastors, preachers and scholars (self-indoctrination).

Reformed Christians are, regardless of some opinions, sincere in their beliefs and have a desire to share the gospel as they understand it. Unfortunately, to them it often means trying to convert others to Reformed Theology.

 

[AustinC]

What part of the New Covenant do you believe the covenant of redemption incorporates (historically redemption was considered the work of Christ as the New Covenant)? Do you believe in the New Covenant at all, or in your opinion is the covenant of redemption simply a new name for this Covenant?

I ask because what you and @Iconoclast has attributed to the covenant of redemption is attributed to the New Covenant in the Bible.

I can only speak for myself, but I view the Covenant of Redemption within the Abrahamic and New Covenants, which are eternal covenants. The Covenant of Redemption would be encompassed in this passage:
*Genesis 12:2-3*
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Understanding that the Israel of God is established in the Abrahamic Covenant we also see this Covenant of Redemption within the New Covenant.

*Jeremiah 31:31-34*
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Notice the sovereign "I will's" of God in these Covenants that express His Covenant of Redemption. The sermon to the Hebrews reinforces this idea as the preacher conveys this redemptive covenant between God and His chosen people.

Now, if you demand that the term "Covenant of Redemption" must be found in the Bible, then I acknowledge you will not find the term in the Bible, just as you will not find Trinity.

 

[JonC]

I can only speak for myself, but I view the Covenant of Redemption within the Abrahamic and New Covenants, which are eternal covenants. The Covenant of Redemption would be encompassed in this passage:
*Genesis 12:2-3*
And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Understanding that the Israel of God is established in the Abrahamic Covenant we also see this Covenant of Redemption within the New Covenant.

*Jeremiah 31:31-34*
“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

Notice the sovereign "I will's" of God in these Covenants that express His Covenant of Redemption. The sermon to the Hebrews reinforces this idea as the preacher conveys this redemptive covenant between God and His chosen people.

Now, if you demand that the term "Covenant of Redemption" must be found in the Bible, then I acknowledge you will not find the term in the Bible, just as you will not find Trinity.

I do not care what people call a doctrine.

I was simply wondering how you view the covenant of redemption in context to the covenants that are spoken of in Scripture (in the text as covenants).

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Hello JonC,
[QUOTE]So the "Covenant of Redemption" focuses on believers[/QUOTE]

No, That is not really the thought or focus of the Covenant of Redemption. Believers are indeed in view, but when speaking of this Covenant of Redemption the focus is on the inner working of the trinity.

and is not actually in the Bible

It is most certainly in the bible.
Jesus revealed it to the Church by means of scripture.
jn3
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

while the New Covenant focuses on Christ and is in the Bible. The "covenant of redemption", while not technically biblical, is a way of focusing on men who were under the Old and New Covenants.

No...it has nothing to do with this at all.

The strange thing is Scripture does talk about those exact same people, but under very different covenants.

Again, that is not the central feature of the Covenant of Redemption

Do you believe Scripture should be revised by taking out the actual Covenants listed in God's Word and reorganized to incorporate the covenants under Covenant Theology?

No. I did not say anything about such an idea.
I have never seen anyone suggest any idea like this, so I cannot help you here. Thanks for your interest in asking these questions.

 

[Silverhair]

@Iconoclast nice to see that you responded. But I do wonder why you spent so much effort in trying to explain something that is already in the bible, although as @JonC point out what you are calling a "Covenant of Redemption" is what the bible calls a New Covenant. What I have found is that Calvinist's do like to add special names to everything. It's like when we were kids and we had to have a secret decoder ring so we could unlock the coded message.

But God did not hide the gospel or the teachings of the bible so I have to wonder who thinks we need a decoder ring? Not God.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC,

Do you understand what I am asking?

Your questions seem t be off topic.

In case, I'll clarify -

Ok, let's see what you have.

You two are taking things the New Testament places under the New Covenant and putting them under something you call "the covenant of redemption"

No...this is not even close. Have you never heard of the Covenant Of redemption? Might be time to give google a workout.

and claiming the "covenant of redemption" is biblical because Scripture talks about those things even though Scripture talks about them as being under the New Covenant.

No...this is all wrong.

The only way that is biblical is if you are simply rejecting the biblical use of "New Covenant" and renaming it something else. But it certainly looks like you are trying to divide up the New Covenant into little covenants.

No.once again it is not rejecting anything at all

What may be obvious to many members on this forum is that people who hold Reformed Theology are conditioned to read Scripture differently.

No...that is not obvious to anyone, and just because you declare it does not make it true. You evidently have never heard of The Covenant of Redemption, despite claims to masters degrees and so on. Does not seem to be the case.

While most non-Reformed Christians appreciate and learn from Reformed preachers and theologians (such as R.C. Sproul, John MacArthur, John Piper, Paul Enns, ect.) along side non-Reformed preachers and scholars, many Reformed Christians typically live on a diet of Reformed pastors, preachers and scholars (self-indoctrination).

Reformed Christians are, regardless of some opinions, sincere in their beliefs and have a desire to share the gospel as they understand it. Unfortunately, to them it often means trying to convert others to Reformed Theology.

No one shares these ideas, but you.
You can believe what you want however.
Silverhair, did the scripture start to help you?

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair,


No this is completely wrong from top to bottom. Maybe as I present it you will learn. You will not learn by listening to someone who does not understand.
You can make caricatures if you want, but if the time comes that you want to learn,let us know.



That is what you think you have found, I will leave you to it.

Now don't have a snit because I don't agree with your theory. You want to trust what some men tell you and I trust what the Holy Spirit has said. You may feel you are qualified to teach those that follow your theory but I can assure you that you are not qualified to teach me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Covenant of Redemption is all over the Bible if one looks for it.

Luke 22:22. “And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined……” Determined where and by whom if not in the Covenant of Grace?

John 6:38-39. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” Christ has been given a people and the task by the Father which He is determined to fulfil. What can this refer to if not the Covenant of Redemption?

John 10:16. “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Not, “I will bring,” but, “I must bring.” Our Lord had been given a commission to fulfil.

John 10:17-18. “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” Where did Christ receive this command, the doing of which merited so well the Father’s love? In the Covenant of Redemption, of course.

Phil 2:6-8, NIV. . ‘Who, being very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his advantage, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even death on the cross.’ In the Covenant of Redemption, our Lord gave up temporarily that equality with the Father that had existed from all eternity, and became the willing servant of Exodus 21:5-6 and Psalm 40:6-8 in order to rescue those who had been given to Him (John 17:2, 6 ).

Heb 2:13. ‘Here am I and the children whom God has given to Me.’ Given by the Father to the Son in the Covenant of Redemption to be redeemed from sin and brought to heaven.

In Isaiah 42:6, Christ is described as the Covenant itself. He is, in His own Person and work, the very substance of it. In Mal 3:1, He is, ‘The Messenger of the Covenant’ because He came to proclaim it and make it known. In Heb 7:22, He is, ‘The Surety of a better covenant.’ Christ came as the representative of fallen Man, being engaged to fulfil the obligations incurred under the Covenant of Works. In Heb 9:15, He is, ‘The Mediator of the New Covenant’ since He has brought about legal satisfaction between God and man so that covenantal blessings are now imparted to those who had previously forfeited them, and He now stands between the two parties, advocating the cause of man to God (1John 2:1 ) and speaking a word of the comfort of God to the weary man (Isaiah 50:4 ).
Let us now hear from A.W. Pink. ‘But how could Christ sustain such offices a these unless the covenant had been made with him (Gal 3:17 ) and the execution of it had been undertaken by Him (Heb 10:5-7 )? [Heb 13:20] is quite sufficient to establish the fact that an organic connection existed between the Covenant of Grace and the sacrifice of Christ. In response to Christ’s execution of its terms, the Father now says to Him, “By the blood of Thy covenant I have set forth Thy prisoners [those given to Him before the foundation of the world, but in Adam fallen under condemnation] out of the pit wherein is no water” (Zech 9:11 ).’

 

[JonC]

The Covenant of Redemption is all over the Bible if one looks for it.

Luke 22:22. “And truly the Son of Man goes as it has been determined……” Determined where and by whom if not in the Covenant of Grace?

John 6:38-39. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” Christ has been given a people and the task by the Father which He is determined to fulfil. What can this refer to if not the Covenant of Redemption?

John 10:16. “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.” Not, “I will bring,” but, “I must bring.” Our Lord had been given a commission to fulfil.

John 10:17-18. “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” Where did Christ receive this command, the doing of which merited so well the Father’s love? In the Covenant of Redemption, of course.

Phil 2:6-8, NIV. . ‘Who, being very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his advantage, but made Himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to death, even death on the cross.’ In the Covenant of Redemption, our Lord gave up temporarily that equality with the Father that had existed from all eternity, and became the willing servant of Exodus 21:5-6 and Psalm 40:6-8 in order to rescue those who had been given to Him (John 17:2, 6 ).

Heb 2:13. ‘Here am I and the children whom God has given to Me.’ Given by the Father to the Son in the Covenant of Redemption to be redeemed from sin and brought to heaven.

In Isaiah 42:6, Christ is described as the Covenant itself. He is, in His own Person and work, the very substance of it. In Mal 3:1, He is, ‘The Messenger of the Covenant’ because He came to proclaim it and make it known. In Heb 7:22, He is, ‘The Surety of a better covenant.’ Christ came as the representative of fallen Man, being engaged to fulfil the obligations incurred under the Covenant of Works. In Heb 9:15, He is, ‘The Mediator of the New Covenant’ since He has brought about legal satisfaction between God and man so that covenantal blessings are now imparted to those who had previously forfeited them, and He now stands between the two parties, advocating the cause of man to God (1John 2:1 ) and speaking a word of the comfort of God to the weary man (Isaiah 50:4 ).
Let us now hear from A.W. Pink. ‘But how could Christ sustain such offices a these unless the covenant had been made with him (Gal 3:17 ) and the execution of it had been undertaken by Him (Heb 10:5-7 )? [Heb 13:20] is quite sufficient to establish the fact that an organic connection existed between the Covenant of Grace and the sacrifice of Christ. In response to Christ’s execution of its terms, the Father now says to Him, “By the blood of Thy covenant I have set forth Thy prisoners [those given to Him before the foundation of the world, but in Adam fallen under condemnation] out of the pit wherein is no water” (Zech 9:11 ).’

The contents of the covenant of redemption is all over the Bible. I agree. But under entirely different covenants.

But you are not proving your point biblically.

Illustration - I could say there is a covenant of the talking donkey and provide Numbers 22 as proof. The donkey wouldn't have been beaten had he not made a fool of Balaam. Therefore it is a covenant the donkey broke. You'd say that is silly, and I'd say it's in the Bible.

When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff. Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?" Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me!

You are taking verses that are in the Bible, that are legitimately a part of other covenants, and reorganizing them into a fictional "covenant".

This reorganizing of Scripture, claiming it is biblical because those are actual verses being placed into different context, is what I mean by Reformed Christians being trained to read the Bible differently.

Scripture is a narrative. Reformed Christians often do not recognize that fact. They destroy Scripture by rearranging it so that the narrative, the redemptive history, is completely lost.

Do yes, Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. But no, this is not "the covenant of redemption" (bits and pieces of Scripture and covenants pulled out of Scripture and out into a Reformed box) within Covenant Theology. This is the New Covenant.

 

[JonC]

JonC,



Your questions seem t be off topic.

Ok, let's see what you have.



No...this is not even close. Have you never heard of the Covenant Of redemption? Might be time to give google a workout.


No...this is all wrong.



No.once again it is not rejecting anything at all



No...that is not obvious to anyone, and just because you declare it does not make it true. You evidently have never heard of The Covenant of Redemption, despite claims to masters degrees and so on. Does not seem to be the case.



No one shares these ideas, but you.
You can believe what you want however.
Silverhair, did the scripture start to help you?

I know Covenant Theology (as you know, my degree is in theology). I ask questions to learn what you think.

The issue here is not that redemption is in Scripture. Nobody is questioning the verses you provide.

The issue is you destroy the biblical narrative. God gave His Word. Covenant Theology rearranges God's Word to create a new thing and presents this new thing as biblical because it is composed of Scripture when the biblical narrative is lost entirely.

And you are wrong. Others do hold my view regarding Reformed Theology. That was the ideas many who were once Reformed have expressed upon leaving Reformed Theology and I agree with (I didn't come up with the idea, but their experiences made sense). Reformed Christians do read Scripture differently. They read the Bible by extracting and rearranging Scripture according to a framework if their own invention. Ultimately it is not even the same Scripture because they have lost the biblical narrative. It is systematic theology divorced from biblical theology - treating Scripture as a reference book rather than God's Word.

 

[AustinC]

I know Covenant Theology (as you know, my degree is in theology). I ask questions to learn what you think.

The issue here is not that redemption is in Scripture. Nobody is questioning the verses you provide.

The issue is you destroy the biblical narrative. God gave His Word. Covenant Theology rearranges God's Word to create a new thing and presents this new thing as biblical because it is composed of Scripture when the biblical narrative is lost entirely.

And you are wrong. Others do hold my view regarding Reformed Theology. That was the ideas many who were once Reformed have expressed upon leaving Reformed Theology and I agree with (I didn't come up with the idea, but their experiences made sense). Reformed Christians do read Scripture differently. They read the Bible by extracting and rearranging Scripture according to a framework if their own invention. Ultimately it is not even the same Scripture because they have lost the biblical narrative. It is systematic theology divorced from biblical theology - treating Scripture as a reference book rather than God's Word.

You wrote:
"I do not care what people call a doctrine."

Now you rail about your expertise in doctrine. Moreso you make broad brush claims with zero support, showing your abhorrence of Reformed Doctrine (theology) without proving your assertion.

Jon, you have very little legitimacy at this point. It seems that Liberty did a poor job of teaching you about Reformed Theology. It doesn't surprise me since it's founder was Arminian through and through.

 

[JonC]

You wrote:
"I do not care what people call a doctrine."

Now you rail about your expertise in doctrine. Moreso you make broad brush claims with zero support, showing your abhorrence of Reformed Doctrine (theology) without proving your assertion.

Jon, you have very little legitimacy at this point. It seems that Liberty did a poor job of teaching you about Reformed Theology. It doesn't surprise me since it's founder was Arminian through and through.

The issue is you say stupid stuff just to disrupt (you claim I abhor Reformed doctrine when I simply think it is incorrect; you say I reject using systematic theology when I obviously do not; you say Liberty does a poor job of teaching Reformed Theology when we had a Reformed theologian as a professor, ect ).

Your posts are beyond ignorant. They are plain stupid because you do not even bother with truth.

 

[JonC]

@Iconoclast

We know that covenants are specific.

The Mosaic Covenant was given through Moses to a specific people (not to their forefathers but to that generation forward).


So it is not a "both and" type of thing (it would be wrong to mix covenants as they are specific and indicate a specific point of interaction.

The Abrahamic Covenant was given to Abraham. He (not others) would rather many nations, etc.

You listed John 6:38-39. “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

Is Jesus laying down His own life the New Covenant or the covenant of redemption?

Obviously it is the New Covenant because Jesus said it is. That is the issue with Covenant Theology. It rearranges Scripture into its own framework and agenda while declaring "it's in the Bible".