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Covenant Theology Confusion

Iconoclast

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I think that we are looking at different "everlasting covenants". When I hear the term, I think of God's everlasting covenant between Himself (the Trinity) and His people. Throughout Scripture the people of God appeal to this covenant specifically because it was made with them. If you will, please provide a few passages so that I can better see the distinction between this and the everlasting covenant of which you are referring.

Here is the one I'm talking about (are we looking at the same thing differently, or is there another everlasting covenant?).

Genesis 17 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you...

Jeremiah 32 "They shall be My people, and I will be their God; and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul."

Ezekiel 16 "Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant. Thus I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD, so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done," the Lord GOD declares.

Ezekiel 37 "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."
Apart from the conditional mosaic covenant all covenants are everlasting in one sense.
For the sake of this discussion the arrangement between the 3 persons of the trinity commonly known as the Covenant of Redemption stands for all eternity even before man was actually created. Jesus as the mediator and surety for the elect render it certain....the elect benefit from this going forward. I would examine jn 6, jn10, and jn17 here.
The excellent verses you offered are a part of the progressive revelation of this covenant to man, and I think that this was what Biblicist was alluding to.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think that we are looking at different "everlasting covenants". When I hear the term, I think of God's everlasting covenant between Himself (the Trinity) and His people. Throughout Scripture the people of God appeal to this covenant specifically because it was made with them. If you will, please provide a few passages so that I can better see the distinction between this and the everlasting covenant of which you are referring.

Here is the one I'm talking about (are we looking at the same thing differently, or is there another everlasting covenant?).

Genesis 17 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you...

Jeremiah 32 "They shall be My people, and I will be their God; and I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear Me always, for their own good and for the good of their children after them. I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; and I will put the fear of Me in their hearts so that they will not turn away from Me. I will rejoice over them to do them good and will faithfully plant them in this land with all My heart and with all My soul."

Ezekiel 16 "Nevertheless, I will remember My covenant with you in the days of your youth, and I will establish an everlasting covenant with you. Then you will remember your ways and be ashamed when you receive your sisters, both your older and your younger; and I will give them to you as daughters, but not because of your covenant. Thus I will establish My covenant with you, and you shall know that I am the LORD, so that you may remember and be ashamed and never open your mouth anymore because of your humiliation, when I have forgiven you for all that you have done," the Lord GOD declares.

Ezekiel 37 "I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."
That would be referring to the New Covenant , correct?
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That's a pretty poor source. First of all, it's on the website of a "Christian Church," and they teach baptismal regeneration, so don't have good doctrine. Secondly he really doesn't understand dispensationalism. Doesn't even mention the doxological foundation of the theology.
Noticed that many of us here seem to know the theology others hold to incompletely....
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
That would be referring to the New Covenant , correct?
No. If I understand Icon correctly, the New Covenant would be a mediated covenant between God and man while the everlasting covenant between the persons of the Godhead. My position is that the other covenants are expressions of this one covenant at various places in redemptive history(but that it was between God and man, not covenantal agreements between the persons of the Trinity).
 

kyredneck

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He was, ALL sinners are before the Holy Spirit dwells in them!

So, one opposed to God can do all the things he did BEFORE the heart change?

You say Abraham was hell bound prior to Gen 15:6? Incredible.
 
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The Biblicist

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The everlasting covenant is between the Divine Persons of the Godhead. The obligation of the Second Person is to become man, and in his incarnated role of the Second Adam he is THE MAN that the covenant is through (mediation) to all men "in him." This covenant is not between God and fallen man but between God and the Second Adam and to all mankind who are "in him." It never exceeds the boundaries of "in him" as far as personal redemptive benefits.

All other covenants between God and fallen man are types of the everlasting covenant where either the particular man God makes a covenant with either typifies Christ or those in his loins as typical of those "in Christ."

The "new covenant" is the everlasting covenant as a public administration ON EARTH inclusive of another house of God (the congregation) and its ordinances, ministry, worship, discipline and mission. This new covenant administration is DECLARATIVE in nature of the everlasting covenant. However, the direct administration of the redemptive applications of the everlasting covenant is immediate and direct between God and those chosen "in Christ" just as it always has been since Genesis 3:15 until Christ returns. The "new covenant" administration declares that truth and symbolizes it in new ordinances and proclaims it in the assembly and that is why it is called "the pillar and ground of the truth."
 

Yeshua1

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The everlasting covenant is between the Divine Persons of the Godhead. The obligation of the Second Person is to become man, and in his incarnated role of the Second Adam he is THE MAN that the covenant is through (mediation) to all men "in him." This covenant is not between God and fallen man but between God and the Second Adam and to all mankind who are "in him." It never exceeds the boundaries of "in him" as far as personal redemptive benefits.

All other covenants between God and fallen man are types of the everlasting covenant where either the particular man God makes a covenant with either typifies Christ or those in his loins as typical of those "in Christ."

The "new covenant" is the everlasting covenant as a public administration ON EARTH inclusive of another house of God (the congregation) and its ordinances, ministry, worship, discipline and mission. This new covenant administration is DECLARATIVE in nature of the everlasting covenant. However, the direct administration of the redemptive applications of the everlasting covenant is immediate and direct between God and those chosen "in Christ" just as it always has been since Genesis 3:15 until Christ returns. The "new covenant" administration declares that truth and symbolizes it in new ordinances and proclaims it in the assembly and that is why it is called "the pillar and ground of the truth."
It would be the eternal Covenant being worked out as now between God and mankind, correct?
 

Yeshua1

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So, one opposed to God can do all the things he did BEFORE the heart change?

You say Abraham was hell bound prior to Gen 15:6? Incredible.
I am saying that until the Lord saves a person, yes, are hell bound, and he saves them when the Spirit indwells them at time receive jesus as Messiah/Lord.
 

The Biblicist

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It would be the eternal Covenant being worked out as now between God and mankind, correct?
The eternal covenant has been applied directly to the elect from Genesis until now as that is the only means of salvation. The "new" covenant is the first administrative covenant ON EARTH to declare the terms of the everlasting covenant in clarity and to illustrate it clearly in its ordinances and announce it in the house of God because what was anticpated before the cross has now been fulfilled in the life and death of Christ. Thus the "new" covenant equally declares it with that clarity of fulfilled prophecy.
 

Yeshua1

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No. If I understand Icon correctly, the New Covenant would be a mediated covenant between God and man while the everlasting covenant between the persons of the Godhead. My position is that the other covenants are expressions of this one covenant at various places in redemptive history(but that it was between God and man, not covenantal agreements between the persons of the Trinity).
The New Covenantt would be the eternal Covenant being worked out as now between God and mankind, correct?
The eternal covenant has been applied directly to the elect from Genesis until now as that is the only means of salvation. The "new" covenant is the first administrative covenant ON EARTH to declare the terms of the everlasting covenant in clarity and to illustrate it clearly in its ordinances and announce it in the house of God because what was anticpated before the cross has now been fulfilled in the life and death of Christ. Thus the "new" covenant equally declares it with that clarity of fulfilled prophecy.
So the New One is the completion/fulfillment of all of the Covenants God had made with mankind?
 

The Biblicist

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The New Covenantt would be the eternal Covenant being worked out as now between God and mankind, correct?

So the New One is the completion/fulfillment of all of the Covenants God had made with mankind?

No, the everlasting covenant has always been complete and final and the only basis for direct salvation for any man at any time. The "new" covenant is simply the most complete ADMINISTRATIVE expression of the everlasting convenant from the cross to the Second Coming. All others were types and incomplete expressions.
 

Yeshua1

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No, the everlasting covenant has always been complete and final and the only basis for direct salvation for any man at any time. The "new" covenant is simply the most complete ADMINISTRATIVE expression of the everlasting convenant from the cross to the Second Coming. All others were types and incomplete expressions.
Su there was a small to larger fulfillment of it, finding its final and ultimate expression in the New Covenant now between God and us?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The New Covenantt would be the eternal Covenant being worked out as now between God and mankind, correct?

So the New One is the completion/fulfillment of all of the Covenants God had made with mankind?
I do not know of a passage that speaks of God's "eternal covenant" except that it be between God and man. In Scripture God covenants with man in such a way as to look to redemption (Jesus is the seed of Abraham). This is an eternal covenant. It is the same ultimate promise in view with Moses, and David. All of this is fulfilled in Christ. Likewise, the New Covenant is a part of this redemption. And it is also between God and man.

The way that this is an eternal covenant with man is that it always foreshadows Jesus as the "Last Adam", the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth. The covenant has always been between God and man, but only in terms of men being "in Christ" (even if foreshadowed by thousands of years...it has always been faith in Christ). The key to the incarnation, therefore, is God becoming man (Christ) and the Son doing all in submission to the Father through the Spirit. Otherwise, there is no covenant of redemption at all.
 

Yeshua1

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I do not know of a passage that speaks of God's "eternal covenant" except that it be between God and man. In Scripture God covenants with man in such a way as to look to redemption (Jesus is the seed of Abraham). This is an eternal covenant. It is the same ultimate promise in view with Moses, and David. All of this is fulfilled in Christ. Likewise, the New Covenant is a part of this redemption. And it is also between God and man.

The way that this is an eternal covenant with man is that it always foreshadows Jesus as the "Last Adam", the Lamb slain before the foundation of the earth. The covenant has always been between God and man, but only in terms of men being "in Christ" (even if foreshadowed by thousands of years...it has always been faith in Christ). The key to the incarnation, therefore, is God becoming man (Christ) and the Son doing all in submission to the Father through the Spirit. Otherwise, there is no covenant of redemption at all.
The New Covenant supersedes all prior ones made by God with man, correct?
 

percho

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Did; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2 made for; Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. John 1:29 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world; from Rev 13:8 ------ Which I call the everlasting covenant between the God and the Word made flesh. Hebrews 1:1,2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake ( The Word, his thoughts and intents) in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, (The Word made flesh) whom he (God, the Father) hath appointed heir of all things, by (for?) whom also he made the worlds;

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1 Cor 15:56 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Rom 7:12
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: <(Is that a law, holy, just and good? Will it give strength to sin?) for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. ---- Was that law spiritual? Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Was the first man of creation, made from the dust of the ground, of the flesh sold under sin by being given the law, thou shalt not eat of it? Consider: NKJV Rom 8:20 For the creation (Inclusive of Adam) was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Does that allow us to be raised from the dead as he was?

Was the everlasting covenant made before the foundation of the world made for what God was going to do in creating man of the flesh under the old covenant.

And was all of that done for what is stated here? 1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How the new covenant can be established with the new creation. The spiritual man made in the image of the resurrected Christ.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
 
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