Covenant Theology

[Yeshua1]

If you are going to make assertions, try to provide the reference. Some of us have driven through the show me state.

Genesis 15, Exodus 23, Numbers 34 and Ezekiel 47. \

 

[timf]

You can be sure it is those who are of faith who are the sons of Abraham, not those belonging to a blood line genealogy or a geopolitical institution. This is not up for debate.

A promise of a "new covenant" was made to the nation of Israel;

"I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah"

When Jesus was brought to the temple, only two people recognized him;

Luke 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luke 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.

Even when Jesus started his ministry announcing the Kingdom of God was at hand, only a small number (of the total population) had faith. I do not know if there was a percentage that would have been needed short of 100% in order for the Kingdom to come to Israel. I do see that whatever percentage did have faith was insufficient.

Jesus stopped short at the start of His ministry from the full quote of Isaiah;

Luke 4:18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Isaiah 61:1-4 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified. And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

To me there is purpose when Jesus only reads a potion of Isaiah.

Jesus came to be the new covenant with Israel and through them a bringing in of gentiles;

Isaiah 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Just because Israel failed in her responsibility to be ready to receive her King, God still provided for faith to come to the gentiles.

No one is saying that salvation is other than by faith.

However, the plan of God for the nation of Israel will be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I see a remnant of Israel (who are all Christian) who form a restored Israel and finally receive her King and the completion of the covenant;

I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

It sounds like you have salvation and covenant tied together in your thinking. I see a covenant with Israel that was supposed to and will bring a blessing on the whole earth. However, even the failure of Israel was not sufficient to prevent some blessing (including salvation) coming to the gentiles.

Romans 11:11-12 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

What those of us waiting for the "fulness" of Israel desire is to see the completion of the covenant and the even greater "riches" that will follow.

Part of the riches may be the removal of Satan, longer life, good government, etc.

This is not some "tribal" exclusion of everyone but the Jews, this is the fulfillment of the original plan God had for a redeemed world using Israel.

 

[Van]

Pitchback

Genesis 15, Exodus 23, Numbers 34 and Ezekiel 47. \

In Genesis 15 there is no promise to the Nation of Israel, but there is a promise to Abraham's descendents, which includes Gentile believers, Galatians 3. Strike one.

In Exodus 23 the promise is to the people who worship God. Note the ones who doubted, grumbled and rebelled died in the wilderness. Strike two.

In Numbers 34 the promise is to the sons of Israel, which again are believers, not a blood line tribe. Romans 9. Strike 3.

In Ezekiel 47 the promise is to the twelve tribes of Israel. However, verse 23 says believers not in the blood line will receive the promised land too. Strike 4.

Your whole premise is tribal and unchristian. It makes no difference, Jew or Gentile, but who believes in Him.

 

[Van]

As far as the premise God's plan failed and had to be replaced, that is without merit. No plan of God can be thwarted. God is all-powerful, which means He can overcome anything thought able to hinder His purpose and plan.

 

[Yeshua1]

In Genesis 15 there is no promise to the Nation of Israel, but there is a promise to Abraham's descendents, which includes Gentile believers, Galatians 3. Strike one.

In Exodus 23 the promise is to the people who worship God. Note the ones who doubted, grumbled and rebelled died in the wilderness. Strike two.

In Numbers 34 the promise is to the sons of Israel, which again are believers, not a blood line tribe. Romans 9. Strike 3.

In Ezekiel 47 the promise is to the twelve tribes of Israel. However, verse 23 says believers not in the blood line will receive the promised land too. Strike 4.

Your whole premise is tribal and unchristian. It makes no difference, Jew or Gentile, but who believes in Him.

We are NOT "spiritual Jews" when we receive Ueshua, ONLY Jews are when they do!

And Gods promises made to those of the tribes of Isreal, are we part of that?

 

[Van]

Strawman

We are NOT "spiritual Jews" when we receive Ueshua, ONLY Jews are when they do!

And Gods promises made to those of the tribes of Isreal, are we part of that?

Please read what I wrote. Did you read the verse I referenced? You know the one that said folks without a blood line claim were part of the tribes? Give me a break.

Christianity is not a tribal religion, it is based on faith in the truth, no matter our origin. In Christ there is no difference between Jew and Gentile.

Bottom line, no scripture has been cited to support the tribal view, rather than the faith view of who God's chosen people are. Anyone who has doubts just needs to read Galatians chapter 3. It will take less than 5 minutes.

 

[thomas15]

the nation of Isreal was promised to have a boundary far larger in the land of promise than she ever had even during david/Solomon, and to have all nations come up to Jerusalem to worship their God and His King!

Has the church ever fulfilled that?

Of course that is just one of many details. How the covenant/replacement theology crowd can dismiss the details and claim for itself promises made to another is a mystery.

 

[timf]

In Genesis 15 there is no promise to the Nation of Israel,

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Jacob (Israel) has not yet been born.

There is a principle of inheritance that can apply here;

Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

The convent with Abraham is to be continued with his biological descendants;

Genesis 17:9-10 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

We see that the covenant with Abraham and "his seed" is reiterated as with Abraham Isaac and Jacob;

Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

This covenant was agreed to by all the people of Israel;

Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

In Exodus 23 the promise is to the people who worship God.

I do not see a covenant established with those who worship. I see a portion of the Mosaic laws and the promises God made to Israel if they were to be faithful.

Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Exodus 23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

Exodus 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exodus 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Exo 23:28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.

In Numbers 34 the promise is to the sons of Israel, which again are believers, not a blood line tribe.

Numbers 34:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; (this is the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof

I do not see any promise in Numbers 34. I see the Lord instructing the division of the land of Canaan for the nation of Israel.

In Ezekiel 47 the promise is to the twelve tribes of Israel. However, verse 23 says believers not in the blood line will receive the promised land too.

I see in this part of Ezekiel a description of a future state where Israel is restored.

Ezekiel 47:12-13 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

The Bible tells us that gentile believers are to be joint heirs with Israel.

Ezekiel 47:22-23 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

I believe that the events described in Ezekiel 47 are concerning the restored Israel. In that future time when all nations come to Israel to worship Jesus, I see this instruction as to remind Israel that they are to receive gentiles equally if the reside in Israel and have children there.

Galatians 3

Galatians 3:16-17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Here we have a distinction drawn between the covenant and the law. We may also see a differentiation in the word "promises". Earlier a specific promise is cited;

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This promise we have received. I do not see a transfer of covenant. In the following verse we can also apply the singular / plural distinction and that we are Abraham's seed (singular) because of our new life in Jesus. This is how we become joint-heirs.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The bulk of Galatians chapter three is a description of the insufficiency of the law and the superiority of the promise we have in Christ.

I do not see described the appropriation of the covenant with Israel in these promises.

Your whole premise is tribal and unchristian. It makes no difference, Jew or Gentile, but who believes in Him.

Your use of "strike one, strike two..." and the use of "unchristian" suggest to me that you are getting frustrated. I apologize if I have said anything that has been insensitive or accusatory.

This may be a good time to clarify what exactly is being said.

1. I do not see any abrogation of the promises made to the nation of Israel and do see a future time when those promises will be fulfilled.

2. To see no future role for a restored nation of Israel requires either a view that all these promises will be literally fulfilled by the church or that they be allegorized such that they only have metaphorical relevance.

It is not my intention to cause aggravation but to show from the Bible where I do not agree with a doctrine that appears to me to negate large portions of the Bible. I do not see a need to have a covenant with the church. I do not see any such covenant with the church in the Bible.

I am willing to be shown my error, but I would hope that such instruction could be maintained in a spirit of brotherly love or at least toleration.

 

[Yeshua1]

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Jacob (Israel) has not yet been born.

There is a principle of inheritance that can apply here;

Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

The convent with Abraham is to be continued with his biological descendants;

Genesis 17:9-10 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

We see that the covenant with Abraham and "his seed" is reiterated as with Abraham Isaac and Jacob;

Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

This covenant was agreed to by all the people of Israel;

Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.



I do not see a covenant established with those who worship. I see a portion of the Mosaic laws and the promises God made to Israel if they were to be faithful.

Exodus 23:1 Thou shalt not raise a false report: put not thine hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.

Exodus 23:5 If thou see the ass of him that hateth thee lying under his burden, and wouldest forbear to help him, thou shalt surely help with him.

Exodus 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed.

Exodus 23:20 Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exodus 23:22 But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.

Exo 23:28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.



Numbers 34:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; (this is the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof

I do not see any promise in Numbers 34. I see the Lord instructing the division of the land of Canaan for the nation of Israel.



I see in this part of Ezekiel a description of a future state where Israel is restored.

Ezekiel 47:12-13 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

The Bible tells us that gentile believers are to be joint heirs with Israel.

Ezekiel 47:22-23 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

I believe that the events described in Ezekiel 47 are concerning the restored Israel. In that future time when all nations come to Israel to worship Jesus, I see this instruction as to remind Israel that they are to receive gentiles equally if the reside in Israel and have children there.



Galatians 3:16-17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Here we have a distinction drawn between the covenant and the law. We may also see a differentiation in the word "promises". Earlier a specific promise is cited;

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

This promise we have received. I do not see a transfer of covenant. In the following verse we can also apply the singular / plural distinction and that we are Abraham's seed (singular) because of our new life in Jesus. This is how we become joint-heirs.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The bulk of Galatians chapter three is a description of the insufficiency of the law and the superiority of the promise we have in Christ.

I do not see described the appropriation of the covenant with Israel in these promises.




Your use of "strike one, strike two..." and the use of "unchristian" suggest to me that you are getting frustrated. I apologize if I have said anything that has been insensitive or accusatory.

This may be a good time to clarify what exactly is being said.

1. I do not see any abrogation of the promises made to the nation of Israel and do see a future time when those promises will be fulfilled.

2. To see no future role for a restored nation of Israel requires either a view that all these promises will be literally fulfilled by the church or that they be allegorized such that they only have metaphorical relevance.

It is not my intention to cause aggravation but to show from the Bible where I do not agree with a doctrine that appears to me to negate large portions of the Bible. I do not see a need to have a covenant with the church. I do not see any such covenant with the church in the Bible.

I am willing to be shown my error, but I would hope that such instruction could be maintained in a spirit of brotherly love or at least toleration.

Think that those who have a real hard time with this just need to rrealise that God said that he would NOT totally forget his promises made to isreal, as per the Apsotle paul in Romans, has God forever cast awy His people of the promise?

 

[Van]

A brotherly rebuke

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Jacob (Israel) has not yet been born.

There is a principle of inheritance that can apply here;

Hebrews 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

The convent with Abraham is to be continued with his biological descendants;

This is a mistaken view, tribal in nature.

We are children of Abraham, and therefore we are children of the promise. Blood line has nothing to do with it.

Genesis 17:9-10 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

We see that the covenant with Abraham and "his seed" is reiterated as with Abraham Isaac and Jacob;

Yes the issue is that born again non-blood line folks are Abraham's seed. Scripture says yes.

Exodus 2:24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

This covenant was agreed to by all the people of Israel;

Exodus 24:7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Yes, those that believed were part of the covenant, having nothing to do with the tribal blood line.

I do not see a covenant established with those who worship. I see a portion of the Mosaic laws and the promises God made to Israel if they were to be faithful.

I think if you love God with all your heart, mind and soul, that qualifies as worship.

Numbers 34:1-2 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Command the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land of Canaan; (this is the land that shall fall unto you for an inheritance, even the land of Canaan with the coasts thereof

I do not see any promise in Numbers 34. I see the Lord instructing the division of the land of Canaan for the nation of Israel.

How about fulfillment of the promised land??

I see in this part of Ezekiel a description of a future state where Israel is restored.

Ezekiel 47:12-13 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

The Bible tells us that gentile believers are to be joint heirs with Israel.

Ezekiel 47:22-23 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

I believe that the events described in Ezekiel 47 are concerning the restored Israel. In that future time when all nations come to Israel to worship Jesus, I see this instruction as to remind Israel that they are to receive gentiles equally if the reside in Israel and have children there.

Born again believers are Israel, the children of the promise.

Galatians 3:16-17 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

Once spiritually placed in Christ we become children of the promise, one of those blessed by Abraham's seed, singular.

Here we have a distinction drawn between the covenant and the law. We may also see a differentiation in the word "promises". Earlier a specific promise is cited;

Galatians 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

yes that refers to a promise singular. But does the world receive just one blessing from the seed? Nope, promises, plural.

This promise we have received. I do not see a transfer of covenant. In the following verse we can also apply the singular / plural distinction and that we are Abraham's seed (singular) because of our new life in Jesus. This is how we become joint-heirs.

No one is saying the covenant was transferred, just that the covenant included blessing of the whole world from the get go.

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The bulk of Galatians chapter three is a description of the insufficiency of the law and the superiority of the promise we have in Christ.

I do not see described the appropriation of the covenant with Israel in these promises.

Well I do. Promises made to the children of Abraham belong to me. Whatever was promised to Abraham's offspring belongs to those who belong to Christ.

Your use of "strike one, strike two..." and the use of "unchristian" suggest to me that you are getting frustrated. I apologize if I have said anything that has been insensitive or accusatory.

I said tribalism is unchristian, for blood line does not matter, Jew or Gentile, we are all the same in Christ.

This may be a good time to clarify what exactly is being said.

1. I do not see any abrogation of the promises made to the nation of Israel and do see a future time when those promises will be fulfilled.

The promises made to "all Israel" belong to believers under the old and new covenant. This does not remove or transfer any promise, it redefines the basis of inclusion, belief accepted by God.

2. To see no future role for a restored nation of Israel requires either a view that all these promises will be literally fulfilled by the church or that they be allegorized such that they only have metaphorical relevance.

And that is the amillennialist view, not the progressive dispensationalist view. Progressives agree to the literal fulfillment, but we define all Israel as those chosen individually by God based on faith.

 

[timf]

I see in this part of Ezekiel a description of a future state where Israel is restored.

Ezekiel 47:12-13 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

Born again believers are Israel, the children of the promise.

It is a little frustrating for me to go to a lot of work in putting together what I consider Biblical proof only to have it dismissed with unsubstantiated declarations. For this reason let's narrow the scope to just Ezekiel 47.

Do you say that what Ezekiel is describing has already happened?

If it has not happened, when do you think it will happen?

If you think it will happen in the future, do you think those who are now Israel (according to you all believers) will be divided into 12 tribes?

 

[Van]

Hi Timf, me thinks you protest too much. I did not dismiss your charges, I informed you that you were presenting strawman arguments against traditional dispensationalism, and Amillennialism, but should have been addressing progressive dispensationalism.

There is no use debating our respective positions until we understand our respective positions.

1) You are saying Israel will be restored. I agree so why are you making that argument?

2) Israel refers to everyone chosen by God based on faith, not folks with a blood line claim. You disagree.?

3) Scripture says in Christ there is no difference Jew and Gentile. You disagree?

As are as Ezekiel, I think that section of the book refers to end times prophecy.

The millennial kingdom of Jesus will have Gentile believers as well as Jewish believers in Christ. No Jew who died in unbelief will be included, those will be in Hades with the rest of unbelieving mankind.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi Timf, me thinks you protest too much. I did not dismiss your charges, I informed you that you were presenting strawman arguments against traditional dispensationalism, and Amillennialism, but should have been addressing progressive dispensationalism.

There is no use debating our respective positions until we understand our respective positions.

1) You are saying Israel will be restored. I agree so why are you making that argument?

2) Israel refers to everyone chosen by God based on faith, not folks with a blood line claim. You disagree.?

3) Scripture says in Christ there is no difference Jew and Gentile. You disagree?

As are as Ezekiel, I think that section of the book refers to end times prophecy.

The millennial kingdom of Jesus will have Gentile believers as well as Jewish believers in Christ. No Jew who died in unbelief will be included, those will be in Hades with the rest of unbelieving mankind.

think that he would be saying that God still haspromises that he will fulfill towards the physical descendants of Abraham, and that will be under Millenual reign of Christ!

 

[Van]

think that he would be saying that God still has promises that he will fulfill towards the physical descendants of Abraham, and that will be under Millennial reign of Christ!

Why would I be excluded from those promises, my lack of bloodline? Tribalism is not Christian. Why will that penny not drop? Did not Paul make it clear that having a bloodline gets you no where, Romans 9? Jew or Gentile, we must be born again to enter the kingdom of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Why would I be excluded from those promises, my lack of bloodline? Tribalism is not Christian. Why will that penny not drop? Did not Paul make it clear that having a bloodline gets you no where, Romans 9? Jew or Gentile, we must be born again to enter the kingdom of Christ.

Those saved already at this time would have been resurrected/gloried at Rapture, so we will have the heavenly City to dwell in, while they would still be 'normal people" under rule of Christ here on earth!

 

[Van]

Is the idea that the promise for the Millennial Kingdom only applies to those of a particular blood line physically alive at the time of Christ's return? As Biden would say, Malarkey.

 

[Yeshua1]

Is the idea that the promise for the Millennial Kingdom only applies to those of a particular blood line physically alive at the time of Christ's return? As Biden would say, Malarkey.

No, its that ALL still living at time of Jesus return to earth will be part of it, under His Kingly reign, but that Isreal will be the chief nation, as he would rule from there, throne in jerusalem!

 

[timf]

Ezekiel 47:12-13 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

As are as Ezekiel, I think that section of the book refers to end times prophecy.

Given that this is a prophecy, The "ye" that Ezekiel is talking to are the Jews. If you think that there will be no "tribe" in the future, who is it that will inherit the land and why does it say that this division will be according to the twelve tribes of Israel?

I do not see the existence of a remnant restored "tribe" of Israel as any diminishment of what I have in Christ. I do not see an abrogation of the promise that I am a joint heir.

The millennial kingdom of Jesus will have Gentile believers as well as Jewish believers in Christ.

I agree. I see Jesus ruling from Jerusalem and a restored nation of Jewish Christians receiving the promised land of Israel who minister those who come to worship Jesus and receive instruction. I also see these going out from the new Israel to the nations with the law and the word.

Those gentiles who become Christian during the millennium are not to be denied a share of the land if they choose to live in Israel. I see the principle of joint heir continued into the millennium. I see no additional advantage the Jew receives other than faithful service for our Lord.

 

[Van]

Hi Timf, as I said, your view is tribal and unchristian. If I am grafted into the natural tree, I am grafted in among the twelve branches of that tree. This is not rocket science.

I do not see me being a son of Abraham as any diminishment of the Promise to the OT saints. And again, no one is arguing for the abrogation of the promise to the OT saints.

There is no such thing as Jewish Christians, there are just Christians with no difference between Jews and Gentiles. Why will that penny not drop??

Next, lets be clear, we are talking about now, and whether I am a son of Abraham, and an heir to all the unfulfilled promises God made to the sons of Abraham. I say yes and you seem to say no. I support my view with Galatians 3.

 

[timf]

Ezekiel 47:12-13 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.

Given that this is a prophecy, The "ye" that Ezekiel is talking to are the Jews. If you think that there will be no "tribe" in the future, who is it that will inherit the land and why does it say that this division will be according to the twelve tribes of Israel?