Creeds vs. Bible

[37818]

Where was historic Christianity most of the, say, 14 centuries before the Reformation?

The New Testament churches that did exist. The New Testament documents themselves.


(The letters of Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius, Liber Epistolarum 150, titled "Alberto Bavariae Duci" in about 1563 A.D.) Translation of Quote:

For not so long ago I read the edict of the other prince who lamented the fate of the Anabaptists who, so we read, were pronounced heretics twelve hundred years ago and deserving of capital punishment. He wanted them to be heard and not taken as condemned without a hearing.

(by Carolinne White, Ph.D, Oxford University, Head of Oxford Latin)
Nam & alterius Principis edictum non ita pridem legi, qui vicem Anabaptistarum dolens, quos ante mille ducentos annes haeretisos, capitalique supplicio dignos esse pronunciatos legimus, vult, ut audiantur omnino, nec indicta causa pro condemnatis habeantur

 

[Yeshua1]

Thank you for being concise. I see now where you misunderstand my position. The resurrection Christ referred to was a one-time event. It happened in AD70. The saints Christ was speaking to, some of whom - according to Christs promise - did live to see that event. That is when the dead in Christ arose and when the living in Christ rose up together with Christ to meet Him in the air. So, yes, they certainly no longer married. They became like the angels - eisangeloi.

But after that event there was a return to the usual marrying and giving in marriage, etc. When we die we will be like them. We miss out on that AD70 event, but not on being changed just as they were. But for us it is death that brings the change, not the rapture. Either way, we will forever be with the Lord.

Hopefully this is clearer.

ALL of the saved would have been raptured and glorified, and there would have been the Millennium starting then, but none of that happened!

 

[asterisktom]

if he had appeared as in second coming event, there would have been there physical resurrection of all dead and alive in Christ, and the Millennium starting, zilch happened!

How do you know that "zilch happened"?

 

[asterisktom]

You know that view is seen as being heresy, correct?

No, I do not. But if it is heresy there must be a verse showing it to be such. Please show me.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Oh good grief. Putting words in my mouth. If I had started a thread called NIV vs. KJV any intelligent person would know that I am not positing absolute opposition of one version against another. Use common sense man.

But - since creeds are humanly formulated - there is always the danger that there are elements that are wrong. Are you really arguing that all creeds and confessions, throughout hjstory, are free of error?

You are the one who started a thread called 'Creeds vs. Bible,' not I. If you actually wanted an intelligent discussion, you would have pointed out areas in which the Baptist Confession (since we are on a Baptist board) is faulty, but you did not. You simply attempted to damn the whole idea of creeds and confessions. That is what I described as erroneous and tendentious.

If there was anyone suggesting that creeds or confessions were, by their very nature, free from error, as apparently some KJV-only devotees are wont to do, there might be some purpose in your argument, but as it stands, there is none.

I have given Spurgeon's preface to his republication the 1689 Confession before, but it might be as well to do so again:

This ancient document is a most excellent epitome of the things most surely believed among us.
It is not given as an authoritative rule or code of conduct whereby ye are to be fettered, but as an assistance to you in controversy, a confirmation in faith, and a means of edification in righteousness. Here the younger members of our church will have a body of divinity in small compass, and by means of the scriptural proofs, will be ready to give a reason for the hope that is in them.
Be not ashamed of your faith; remember it is the ancient Gospel of martyrs, confessors, reformers and saints. Above all, it is the truth of God, against which the gates of hell cannot prevail.
Let your lives adorn your faith, let your example recommend your creed. Above all, live in Christ Jesus and walk in Him, giving credence to no other teaching but that which is manifestly approved of Him, and owned by the Holy Spirit. Cleave fast to the word of God, which is here mapped out for you.

 

[Yeshua1]

How do you know that "zilch happened"?

History NEVER recorded down any of those events, as will be a world wide major event, as history as we now know it will end!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

think that he is referring to at times some in reformed churches do seem to be elevating them to scripture levels, as in quoting them instead of the Bible!

There may perhaps be such places, but I have been around Reformed churches for 25 years or so and have never yet come across one.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, I do not. But if it is heresy there must be a verse showing it to be such. Please show me.

Historical church has held that the second coming is a future event, and held to physical resurrection of the saints in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

There may perhaps be such places, but I have been around Reformed churches for 25 years or so and have never yet come across one.

I think much more prevalent among presbie reformed then Baptist ones!

 

[HankD]

The part that when Jesus returns, we shall ALL be raised up in a glorified physical resurrected body!

that is a given and has been for you and I and our belief system.

I have questioned Tom concerning sin and death still undeniably present in the world if Christ has indeed returned but dont remember a scriptural answer from Tom.

Perhaps now is a good time for his feelings about this?

Tom, why is there yet sin and death present e.g. cemeteries constantly being filled, hospitals and jails as well, there is still murder, thievery, rape... on and on if Jesus has returned?

 

[Yeshua1]

that is a given and has been for you and I and our belief system.

I have questioned Tom concerning sin and death still undeniably present in the world if Christ has indeed returned but dont remember a scriptural answer from Tom.

Perhaps now is a good time for his feelings about this?

Tom, why is there yet sin and death present e.g. cemeteries constantly being filled, hospitals and jails as well, there is still murder, thievery, rape... on and on if Jesus has returned?

good question, as once the King arrives, he will bring his kingdom here back with him!

 

[asterisktom]

You are the one who started a thread called 'Creeds vs. Bible,' not I. If you actually wanted an intelligent discussion, you would have pointed out areas in which the Baptist Confession (since we are on a Baptist board) is faulty, but you did not. You simply attempted to damn the whole idea of creeds and confessions. That is what I described as erroneous and tendentious.

You still do not understand the meaning of "versus", apparently. Nobody is "damning" anything.

 

[Yeshua1]

You still do not understand the meaning of "versus", apparently. Nobody is "damning" anything. But I guess you would be defensive. Anyone who goes by the name of a long deceased Reformed person is pretty much invested in that position, and any even slightly implied criticism is taken very poorly.

The Confessions would not support full blown Pretierist, correct?

 

[asterisktom]

that is a given and has been for you and I and our belief system.

I have questioned Tom concerning sin and death still undeniably present in the world if Christ has indeed returned but dont remember a scriptural answer from Tom.

Perhaps now is a good time for his feelings about this?

Tom, why is there yet sin and death present e.g. cemeteries constantly being filled, hospitals and jails as well, there is still murder, thievery, rape... on and on if Jesus has returned?

The promise of no more death, Hank, was time-specific. It had to do with the first century Christians. I do not believe that was promised to us. The focus of the Bible, I believe, is our eternal relationship with God, not the incredibly small amount of time we spend on this earth..

 

[37818]

Thank you for being concise. I see now where you misunderstand my position. The resurrection Christ referred to was a one-time event. It happened in AD70. The saints Christ was speaking to, some of whom - according to Christs promise - did live to see that event. That is when the dead in Christ arose and when the living in Christ rose up together with Christ to meet Him in the air. So, yes, they certainly no longer married. They became like the angels - eisangeloi.

But after that event there was a return to the usual marrying and giving in marriage, etc. When we die we will be like them. We miss out on that AD70 event, but not on being changed just as they were. But for us it is death that brings the change, not the rapture. Either way, we will forever be with the Lord.

Hopefully this is clearer.

Huh? No. It is wrong for the same reasons the pre-trib rapture view is wrong.

There is only one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28.

The rapture will not in any way take place before the dead in Christ are raised, 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

 

[Yeshua1]

The promise of no more death, Hank, was time-specific. It had to do with the first century Christians. I do not believe that was promised to us. The focus of the Bible, I believe, is our eternal relationship with God, not the incredibly small amount of time we spend on this earth..

it has to do with this world forward from time of the Second coming!

 

[Yeshua1]

Huh? No. It is wrong for the same reasons the pre-trib rapture view is wrong.

There is only one second appearing, Hebrews 9:28.

The rapture will not in any way take place before the dead in Christ are raised, 1 Thessalonians 4:15.

rapture happens same time, as both dead and living in Christ raised and glorified!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, I do not. But if it is [error] there must be a verse showing it to be such. Please show me.

Please note that I never use the word heresy on a discussion forum, or indeed, anywhere else much, but the chief delight of Hyper-preterism is that it is very easily refuted.

Acts 1:9-11. Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly towards heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."'

1. The Lord Jesus left visibly (see the underlined sections). He will return 'in like manner' i.e. visibly.
2. The Lord Jesus left in a body that was 'flesh and bones' and that ate broiled fish and honey comb (Luke 24:38-43). He will return 'in like manner' i.e. in a body.
3. People saw the Lord Jesus ascend towards heaven; people will see Him return from heaven (Revelation 1:7).
4. Clouds came across to conceal Him from the apostles' sight; clouds will part 'in like manner' to reveal Him.

These verses are a complete rebuttal of the Hyper-preterist myth.

 

[Jerome]

Have y'all gotten your copy yet LOL:

Crossway ❧ ESV bound with 1689 London Baptist Confession, Canons of Dort, etc. (January 2020) $224.99

 

[37818]

rapture happens same time, as both dead and living in Christ raised and glorified!

According to 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 there will not in any way (v.15) be a rapture (v.17) until the dead in Christ are raised first (v.16).