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Criminalizing Everyone

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windcatcher

New Member
A sitting president cannot veto a law passed and signed into law by a previous president. Congress would have to act and the current president sign their later bill into laws to negate that which is currently law. Thus Obama cannot veto a bill signed into law by Bush or any other former president. Can you imagine what chaos that would bring about if a president could negate any law he/she did not like?


A sitting President with a majority filling the House and Senate has no excuse for getting what he wants or what he doesn't want done or removed. The O likes the laws set up under the Bush and prior administrations.... and many of the policies .......since they now serve his interest and power while in office. Before he was elected the laws and policies to which you refer, were a convenient point of attacking the whole of the conservative base and an inconvenience for the Republican party. Now that the Zero is in office (zeus is in his temple=capital), he will not request that those be rescinded.... because he loves the power of his office and he loves the stupidity of people who will continue to blame the Republicans for the powers given the executive branch which expose the people to potentials of abuse if not altered.

This is pretty dishonest. You have been confronted on this before. The zero not only didn't end the Patriot Act, or rendition, he actually expanded certain aspects of it. I have given you the information already.

Right on, Bro. Curtis...... and he's expanding the war into Pakistan via build up in Afganhistan, and antagonizing Iran with drones. His minions, if not him directly, work to silence the free speech of people who picture him as the joker (Bush was depicted as such also but ignored it), and challenge people who have stickers on their cars "abort Obama", or opens up a WH line for people to report those who oppose his policies (yes, MAYBE, it was shut down.... but the gestopo implication is still there 'to report your neighbor' or who ever offends you or him). And he's appointed people who are more concerned about the damage to diversity than they are that soldiers on a base were killed by a terrorist act by an American Citizen/ muslim- Major, recently promoted, who was also included in Homeland Security Briefs. ...... and has appointed an attorney general who is more concerned about constitutional rights of non-citizen terrorists and less about the constitutional rights of citizens..... well, yet a little time and we'll see more proof.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
This is pretty dishonest. You have been confronted on this before. The zero not only didn't end the Patriot Act, or rendition, he actually expanded certain aspects of it. I have given you the information already.


Totally off the threads topic. [Talk about dishonest, ROFL.] The topic is about using these acts and keeping a man in jail with no information to his spouse only to find out he was suspected because import papers on orchids had not been properly used.

Stay on topic. Bush passed the laws, the man was arrested while Bush was in office.
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
:laugh:

You are silly. And you live in a world of lies.

BTW, you must remember the info proving Clinton's administration wrote the laws Bush passed.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
:laugh:

You are silly. And you live in a world of lies.

BTW, you must remember the info proving Clinton's administration wrote the laws Bush passed.

I will discuss with you when you stop being shrill and learn to stick to the topic and learn to be rational.
 

rbell

Active Member
Totally off the threads topic. [Talk about dishonest, ROFL.] The topic is about using these acts and keeping a man in jail with no information to his spouse only to find out he was suspected because import papers on orchids had not been properly used.

Stay on topic. Bush passed the laws, the man was arrested while Bush was in office.

OK, if the topic is about jailing a man for orchids...then why did you bring up Bush?

Seems to me you were the first to derail.

Of course, since you've been called about Obama's inaction...now you want to "get back on topic." How convenient.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I want to see the evidence that Bush passed the laws that allowed this people to be arrested. Otherwise it is just false accusations with no credibility.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
After a year of presidency by our president.. and having a congress that is in his court.. he is the only one responsible...

IF he wanted things changed by now he would have....

Can't blame Bush anymore...

It's the guy sitting in the White House that can't get things done even when he has a congress on his side!...

Total incompetence.

Obama.. just another moocher living in Public Housing!
 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
I will discuss with you when you stop being shrill and learn to stick to the topic and learn to be rational.

So you can post up something that doesn't tell the whole truth, I confront you on it, you tell me I'm off topic, and now want to take the ball & go home ?

You never had any intention of discussing it in the first place, C.T.Boy. And I'm not the only one calling you out. You make me laugh.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
OK, if the topic is about jailing a man for orchids...then why did you bring up Bush?

Seems to me you were the first to derail.

Of course, since you've been called about Obama's inaction...now you want to "get back on topic." How convenient.

Because the draconian laws permitting this type of arrest and detention were passed under his watch. This man was arrested and detained during his term in office. To try to switch blame to Obama is extremely dishonest. He was not even a senator in the US Senate at the time this happened.

 

Bro. Curtis

<img src =/curtis.gif>
Site Supporter
You should have left it at that. The truth is, Obama has not ended these laws, and he has expanded several aspects of it. You should admit that. I haven't seen one person deny that this happened under Bush's watch. You are the only dishonest person posting on this thread.
 

tinytim

<img src =/tim2.jpg>
He has been in the office of the President for a about a yr now..

IF he didn't agree with it.. he could have put it on his agenda to change, and his goons in Congress would have obliged...

He didn't take long changing abortion laws...

Obama knows that Bush's stupidity serves Obama well, and may come in useful someday to silence his critics.
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The fact that it happened under Bush's watch is not evidence that Bush passed the laws that allowed this to happen. When were these laws passed and who was the sitting President that signed them into law? Simply accusing Bush of passing these laws based solely on the fact that he was in office at the time of these arrests is dishonest.
 

Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
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The fact that it happened under Bush's watch is not evidence that Bush passed the laws that allowed this to happen. When were these laws passed and who was the sitting President that signed them into law? Simply accusing Bush of passing these laws based solely on the fact that he was in office at the time of these arrests is dishonest.


You really do not remember when the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act was passed?

Patriot Act:

The USA PATRIOT Act, commonly known as the "Patriot Act", is a statute enacted by the United States Government that President George W. Bush signed into law on October 26, 2001. The contrived acronym stands for Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001 (Public Law Pub.L. 107-56).
The Act increases the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial, and other records; eases restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expands the Secretary of the Treasury’s authority to regulate financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals and entities; and the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected of terrorism-related acts. The act also expands the definition of terrorism to include domestic terrorism, thus enlarging the number of activities to which the USA PATRIOT Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act

The Patriot Act has been widely criticized for being, in effect, too thorough. The Act provides sweeping power to government agencies to monitor the personal habits of not only those who have been identified as suspected terrorists, but anyone residing in the United States as well as United States citizens residing abroad.
http://www.lifescript.com/Soul/Self/Growth/USA_Patriot_Act_Pros_And_Cons.aspx

Read the following report: http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb108/hb108-12.pdf

Read this article: http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cach...atriot+act+detention&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

A quote from the report:

While the government has not specifically said Ashton is being held under the Patriot Act, neither have they denied it under questioning from court-appointed counsel. An FBI press release on the issue reveals almost nothing. Elsewhere, activists continue to record instances of the Patriot Act being applied to U.S. citizens with no connections to terrorism.


This is not an issue of conservatism or liberalism; it is a matter of fundamental human rights



 

abcgrad94

Active Member
The fact that it happened under Bush's watch is not evidence that Bush passed the laws that allowed this to happen. When were these laws passed and who was the sitting President that signed them into law? Simply accusing Bush of passing these laws based solely on the fact that he was in office at the time of these arrests is dishonest.

I agree with you.
 

targus

New Member
You really do not remember when the Patriot Act and the Homeland Security Act was passed?

Crabby - you have failed to show that it is the Homeland Security Act that allowed the events described in the OP.

How do you know that the Homeland Security Act had anything to do with the prosecution?

You have also not explained why Obama and the dems have not done anything to change the law if it is bad.

In fact they have renewed and extended provisions of the Homeland Security Act and the Patriot Act. So rather than blaming Bush shouldn't we now blame the current administration that rubber stamped those Acts?
 

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Thank Bush. It is legal under the Homeland Security Bill. It is very draconian. Under the secret courts set up under this act there are no juries.

Actually, thank Nixon. Such draconian measures began with the DEA under the Nixon administration.

But let's say for a moment that it is all Bush's fault. How many times does it have to happen on Oba-Mao's watch before Oba-Mao has to take responsibility for allowing it to happen?
 

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As soon as the assertion came up that this was alll Bush's fault I contacted the author of the op and asked three questions:

1. Are the laws that allowed these events to take place a result of the creation of Homeland security?

2. Are the laws that allowed these events to take place a result of the Patriot act?

3. Are the laws that allowed these events to take place a result of laws passed under the Bush admin?

The following is the email response, please read all of it carefully:

Pastor Mitchell,

Thank you for your inquiry and for your interest in our work on overcriminalization. I am aware of no direct relationship between, on the one hand, the cases of George and Kathy Norris or of Krister Evertson and, on the other, the PATRIOT Act or the Homeland Security Act. The cases were chosen for this op-ed not only because their facts showed that the fundamental principles of American criminal law had been violated, but also because they were recent. The Bush administration had been in office for 6-7 years when we first began investigating these two cases, but they are very much like scores of similar cases that were prosecuted by prior administrations and that are being prosecuted by the current one.

Most overcriminalization does not come in the form of a widely known, highly scrutinized act of Congress such as the PATRIOT Act or the Homeland Security Act. As the ABA Task Force on the Federalization of Crime and as LSU law professor John Baker have pointed out, there are thousands of federal crimes now on the books. (See, e.g., John S. Baker, Jr., “Revisiting the Explosive Growth of Federal Crimes,” http://www.heritage.org/Research/LegalIssues/lm26.cfm.) Many or most of these “crimes” attach penalties to conduct that the average American does not know – and cannot reasonably be expected to know – carries criminal liability. And Congress is creating about 55 new crimes a year in statutory text alone (i.e., not including the scores of additional criminal offenses it authorizes federal agencies to create in the federal regulatory code).

Harvey Silverglate, a noted civil-rights and criminal defense attorney and a founding member of a Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU, has recently published “Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent.” In his book, Silverglate estimates that almost every American now unwittingly commits approximately three felonies a day. The only things keeping any one of us from being prosecuted are the laws of statistics and the whims of federal prosecutors.

I am not aware of any specific facts in any cases brought under the PATRIOT Act in which a defendant was convicted without substantial proof of criminal intent (i.e., mens rea) or engaged in conduct he had no idea was wrongful and the average American would have no idea was wrongful. The same statement applies to the Homeland Security Act. If you have specific information on any such cases, I would be grateful if you would send it along. Any case study in which the facts clearly and convincingly show that the fundamental principles of American criminal law were violated could prove useful to our work battling overcriminalization.

For further research, I recommend the video and written statements for the (bipartisan) July 22, 2008 hearing in the House Crime Subcommittee on “Over-Criminalization of Conduct/Over-Federalization of Crime.” This is the link to the hearing page: http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/hear_090722_2.html.

The July hearing was supported by a wide range of groups, including liberal organizations such as the ACLU, Constitution Project, and National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers (our closest ally on our overcrim work); libertarian organizations such as the Cato Institute and Families against Mandatory Minimums; and conservative organizations such as the Federalist Society, the Washington Legal Foundation, and the Heritage Foundation. All of these groups believe that overcriminalization and the over-federalization of crime are severe problems that threaten all Americans.

I would also suggest my January 2008 paper, “Enacting Principled, Nonpartisan Criminal-Law Reform: A Memo to President-elect Obama,” http://www.heritage.org/Research/LegalIssues/sr0042.cfm, if you are interested in a better sense of the direction of our work.

Blessings to you,
Brian

--
Brian W. Walsh
Senior Legal Research Fellow
Center for Legal and Judicial Studies
The Heritage Foundation
Washington, D.C.
 
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just-want-peace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As soon as the assertion came up that this was alll Bush's fault I contacted the author of the op and asked three questions:

1. Are the laws that allowed these events to take place a result of the creation of Homeland security?

2. Are the laws that allowed these events to take place a result of the Patriot act?

3. Are the laws that allowed these events to take place a result of laws passed under the Bush admin?

The following is the email response, please read all of it carefully:

WHOA!!!!

What say you now, CT????:smilewinkgrin::BangHead::tonofbricks:
 

rbell

Active Member
CTB is being intellectually dishonest.

I didn't like many things Bush did...but Obama's administration is the one in charge now, and their behavior is not dictated by the former President's.

However...since that would mean CTB would be forced to criticize Obama (which he won't do), then the strategy is to mis-direct, cloud, and ignore the issues.
 
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