Criteria for Enabling Belief for the Select Elect

[percho]

If there were criteria, then we could say "I was saved because I was better than the other person." But we know that it's NOTHING in us but just God's sovereign choice.

I believe using the word saved is part of the problem. Why would one not say I was elected. I believe one is elected for a purpose of God that requires salvation. Let's look at Romans 11:25,26 for example. We know from a verse as Romans 9:24 that there are elect, called of the Jews and also of the Gentiles. Now for 11:25,26 Paul says he does not want them to be ignorant that in part Israel has been blinded, that is only some are elected/called at this time, for he goes on to say that, "all Israel shall be saved."

The criteria is the will of God. Post 14 by Greektim also very good and backs up my post.

The whole of man is to fear God and keep his commands, which I fail at daily, Praise God for his love for me in his Son Jesus the Christ.

 

[percho]

A question for the Cals:

What was the determining factor or factors regarding the choice of which people he would enable to believe? When God, prior to creation, chose whom he would enable to believe, did he choose them arbitrarily from among all the others or was there some other reason for him to enable belief for these specific people?

BTW humblethinker, I love the way you phrased the OP. Enabling Belief and enable to believe, For that is exactly what God does. Our belief (a verb) comes about by the faith of Christ by which we receive the Spirit of truth.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear (because of the faith of Jesus by which they received the Spirit) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7

I am not a Cal but am an electionist, if that is a word.

 

[Iconoclast]

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

 

[12strings]

I believe the very word that calvinists give will tell you they do not have an answer for why God chose some and not others:

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - Calvinist Belief
Conditional Election - Arminian belief.

(at least these are the definitions John Wesley gives)

 

[OldRegular]

A question for the Cals:

What was the determining factor or factors regarding the choice of which people he would enable to believe? When God, prior to creation, chose whom he would enable to believe, did he choose them arbitrarily from among all the others or was there some other reason for him to enable belief for these specific people?

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

You might wish to rethink your OP in light of the above Scripture.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe the very word that calvinists give will tell you they do not have an answer for why God chose some and not others:

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - Calvinist Belief
Conditional Election - Arminian belief.

(at least these are the definitions John Wesley gives)

...or:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

 

[percho]

...or:

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 12strings View Post
I believe the very word that calvinists give will tell you they do not have an answer for why God chose some and not others:

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - Calvinist Belief
Conditional Election - Arminian belief.

(at least these are the definitions John Wesley gives)

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Was your conception and birth into this world independent of any participation by you?


Matt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

I have a question.

Was Jesus, God the Son who participated in his birth of the virgin Mary OR was the following from the word of God the manner in which the Son of God came into the world?

YLT 1:18,20 And of Jesus Christ, the birth was thus: For his mother Mary having been betrothed to Joseph, before their coming together she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit, (Spirit the God) And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten [is] of the Holy Spirit, (Spirit the God)


John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Born again? How was Nicodemus born the first time? At least he knew and knew he had nothing to do with that birth.

John 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Will the man have anything to with his birth from above? Why the analogy to birth? Is it because it is not possible for him to have anything to do with that birth?

Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. (Another way of saying you must be born again.)
Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? (Become as a little child?)
Luke 18:24,25 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

It does not matter how much you have or do, you can not participate in your entering the kingdom of God.

Luke 18:26 And they that heard [it] said, Who then can be saved? Matthew puts it like this. 19:25 When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

Luke 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Under the old covenant the people had said, "All that the LORD has said, we will do." The old covenant which they kept not.

YLT Luke 20:22 In like manner, also, the cup after the supping, saying, `This cup the new covenant in my blood, that for you is being poured forth.


Here we have the King of the Kingdom, the Anointed of God born of woman born under the law about to give his life for the sin of the world. He is going to be dead. Paid the wages of sin, ours, for he had none of his own.
Dead! How is he going to inherit, enter, or see the kingdom of God?

Is there any faith involved in his obedience unto death even the death of the cross? Just whose faith is it that will save you? Yours or His?

Gal 1:1 & Col 1:18 & John 3:7 & John 5:26 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all he might have the preeminence.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Ye must be born again.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Excellent Reply!

Because we have friends and relatives that are going to Hell, and if we accept Calvinism the reason they are going there is because God didn't feel like saving them.

That was an excellent reply ITL. It truly does reveal the arrogance of the Calvinist "theology". We truly do need to keep praying and ministering to our lost loved ones,friends and co-workers because as long as they are still here and breathing there is hope. That hope is that maybe they will at some point choose to exercise that part of their nature that God created them with, (their free will) when He created man in His own image.(we ARE the only living beings on this earth that have that capacity) Thank God that His love of His creation (mankind) is at least equal if not greater than His hatred of sin. It is that great love that caused Him to sacrifice His beloved Son for us by such a cruel and vicious death on the cross. It was the blackness and wickedness of our sin that required such a cruel payment as that. It is that great love whereby "God so loved the world..." and not just a select, elect few as the Calvinists erroneously suppose. Keep praying brother! Keep praying.

Bro.Greg:saint:

 

[Van]

Opening Post

A question for the Cals:

What was the determining factor or factors regarding the choice of which people he would enable to believe? When God, prior to creation, chose whom he would enable to believe, did he choose them arbitrarily from among all the others or was there some other reason for him to enable belief for these specific people?

I have not read this thread, but the standard Calvinism answer is the secret counsel of His will.

Here are the premises contained in the question:

1) People in general lack the spiritual ability to believe. This has no basis in scripture.

2) God chose specific individuals before creation. This has no basis in scripture.

3) Scripture does not clearly indicate the basis for God choosing individuals for salvation. This has no basis in scripture.

Scripture teaches people in general have limited spiritual ability, they can seek God and understand the milk of the gospel. Until they are born again and indwelt with the Holy Spirit they are unable to understand spiritual meat.

Scripture teaches God chose us in Him before creation, but opinions differ as to whether this choice was of individuals or simply a corporate election.

Scripture teaches God chose individuals for salvation through the sanctification by the Holy Spirit (i.e. we are set apart in Christ) and through faith in the truth (i.e. if God credits our faith as righteousness, that is the basis of His choice of us for salvation.)

 

[Cypress]

How do you know they're going to hell?

How do you know someone is going to heaven?

How do you know what's in the heart?

What difference would that make if God determines what is in the heart by his good pleasure?

 

[Yeshua1]

A question for the Cals:

What was the determining factor or factors regarding the choice of which people he would enable to believe? When God, prior to creation, chose whom he would enable to believe, did he choose them arbitrarily from among all the others or was there some other reason for him to enable belief for these specific people?

We are ALL equally sinners, NONE deserving salvation, so God reserved His right to do as he pleased with whom He pleased!

 

[InTheLight]

That was an excellent reply ITL. It truly does reveal the arrogance of the Calvinist "theology". We truly do need to keep praying and ministering to our lost loved ones,friends and co-workers because as long as they are still here and breathing there is hope. Keep praying brother! Keep praying.

Bro.Greg:saint:

I do. Every night.

 

[Iconoclast]

Gregory Perry Sr.

That was an excellent reply ITL. It truly does reveal the arrogance of the Calvinist "theology".

Or...it reveals those who do not understand the theology as you have just posted this.

We truly do need to keep praying and ministering to our lost loved ones,friends and co-workers because as long as they are still here and breathing there is hope. That hope is that maybe they will at some point choose to exercise that part of their nature that God created them with,

Your statement as posted indicates that prayer should be made to the person themselves....that they will do something.
So what would you pray to God for? In your non cal theology...he has done all that He can.

Prayer is based upon God's predetermined plan ,and ordained as a means to effect salvation. You should not be critical of what you do not understand.

"God so loved the world..." and not just a select, elect few as the Calvinists erroneously suppose.

Bro.Greg

God has promised and is saving a multitude that he has elected unto salvation as it is in Jesus Christ. A great multitude...if you do not agree with the teaching , at least do not misrepresent it as you have.
God has people worldwide and that has always been His purpose that salvation is worldwide.No calvinist teaches differently.

 

[salzer mtn]

A Calvinist had a conversation with a Arminian one day and the conversation went something like this. Mr. Arminian, ask Cavinist, how many did Christ die for? Why he died for the whole world, replied Arminian. Mr. Arminian do you believe Christ accomplished salvation for the whole world so that the whole world will be saved? Well no. So you really don't believe Christ died for the whole world, replied Mr. Calvinist. With this Arminian said, if they have faith and repent, they will be saved. Mr. Arminian, either Christ accomplished what he went to the cross to do, or he didn't. Either the blood is sufficiant to save or it is not. Arminian not willing to listen to reason proclaimed, They must have faith. Mr. Calvinist said, how does one come by this faith ? Why the sinner exercises his faith. How can this be, Mr. Arminian when it is said, In my flesh dwelleth no good thing, Rom 7:18 and it's not in man to direct his steps, Jer 10:23. and the wicked through the pride of his countance will not seek after God; God is not in all of his thoughts, Psa 10:4 I ask you again, how does one come by this faith ? As Mr. Arminian fell silent, Mr. Calvin began to explain how faith comes to the sinner. Faith commeth by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. By grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourself, it is the gift of God. Faith is one of the fruits of the Spirit. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. All men have not faith by nature. Before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. You see Mr. Arminian, the natural man cannot produce faith because all things about God are foolishness unto him, and even repentance God has to grant it unto life and it is produced by a Godly sorrow.

 

[Skandelon]

If there were criteria, then we could say "I was saved because I was better than the other person."

This argument doesn't hold water in my opinion, because even under the Calvinistic scheme you could claim 'your better' because God chose you. But why would anyone claim "their better" for squandering their father's money, losing everything, ending up in a pig sty and returning to beg for a slave job? Humility and brokenness is the mark of a repentant heart and there is no one who has been at the spot in their lives and thought, I'm just better than everyone else.

We don't earn our salvation by being humble and believing. Even those who return to God and beg for a job don't deserve it. We deserve to be sent packing and die in our depravity, but God in his grace chooses to save the humble. He hates the proud and gives grace to the humble. The bible says, "Humble yourself and you will be exalted." It doesn't say, "He will humble you so as to exalt you." Humility is not boast worthy, its just the opposite and anyone who has actually experienced the brokenness of humility would never accuse one of thinking they are better because they have.

 

[Herald]

This argument doesn't hold water in my opinion, because even under the Calvinistic scheme you could claim 'your better' because God chose you.

A person would have to intentionally misrepresent the Doctrines of Grace to make that claim. We are saved by grace through faith; grace = God's unmerited favor.

[15]*For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16]*So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

(Romans 9:15-16 ESV)

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Allow Me To Clarify....

Gregory Perry Sr.



Or...it reveals those who do not understand the theology as you have just posted this.




Your statement as posted indicates that prayer should be made to the person themselves....that they will do something.
So what would you pray to God for? In your non cal theology...he has done all that He can.

Prayer is based upon God's predetermined plan ,and ordained as a means to effect salvation. You should not be critical of what you do not understand.


God has promised and is saving a multitude that he has elected unto salvation as it is in Jesus Christ. A great multitude...if you do not agree with the teaching , at least do not misrepresent it as you have.
God has people worldwide and that has always been His purpose that salvation is worldwide.No calvinist teaches differently.

Icon...and whomever else wants to know....I don't claim to be any kind of expert on Calvinism or any other kind of theology except that of a very basic and simple Christian kind. (You can make what you will of that...doesn't bother me in the least) That said...what I do understand regarding Calvin's teachings are why I'm NOT a Calvinist and never will be. Enough said about that...it's not worth me arguing about. I don't have too...there are plenty of far more learned folk ( on both sides of the issue)than I who will spend countless hours in here (wasted in my opinion) doing just that! I just take the side of the non-cal folks because I believe with all my heart they are right!

Now...on another note....Bro.Icon correctly pointed out a typo error on my part that might lead some to think that I believe in praying TO people instead of FOR them....what I said (incorrectly) was:

" We truly do need to keep praying and ministering to our lost loved ones,friends and co-workers because as long as they are still here and breathing there is hope."

That SHOULD HAVE READ..."keep praying FOR and ministering to our lost loved ones......".....ooooopps!!:saint:

I'll try to do a better proof-reading job next time....I was hurrying in order to get to prayer meeting on time. "haste makes waste!"

 

[salzer mtn]

If Christ death on the cross in not efficient for salvation then why pray to God at all for someone to be saved. If the blood does not save, then what does ? Our prayers??? If salvation is left up to man's free will then what good does it do to pray to God knowing he can't control man's free will. You might as well pray to the lost man because by believing Arminian doctine man has all the power anyway.

 

[Herald]

If Christ death on the cross in not efficient for salvation then why pray to God at all for someone to be saved. If the blood does not save, then what does ? Our prayers??? If salvation is left up to man's free will then what good does it do to pray to God knowing he can't control man's free will. You might as well pray to the lost man because by believing Arminian doctine man has all the power anyway.

There is logic in what you say. Spurgeon said it well,

But I tell you what will be the best proof of that; it is the great fact that you never did meet a Christian in your life who ever said he came to Christ without Christ coming to him. You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say; but you never heard an Arminian prayer, for the saints in prayer appear as one in word, and deed and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about free-will: there is no room for it. Fancy him praying,

"Lord, I thank thee I am not like those poor presumptuous Calvinists Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace that I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. Thou givest grace to everybody; some do not improve it, but I do. There are many that will go to hell as much bought with the blood of Christ as I was; they had as much of the Holy Ghost given to them; they had as good a chance, and were as much blessed as I am. It was not thy grace that made us to differ; I know it did a great deal, still I turned the point; I made use of what was given me, and others did not, that is the difference between me and them."

That is a prayer for the devil, for nobody else would offer such a prayer as that. Ah! when they are preaching and talking very slowly, there may be wrong doctrine; but when they come to pray, the true thing slips out; they cannot help it. If a man talks very slowly, he may speak in a fine manner; but when he comes to talk fast, the old brogue of his country, where he was born, slips out. I ask you again, did you ever meet a Christian man who said, "I came to Christ without the power of the Spirit?" If you ever did meet such a man, you need have no hesitation in saying, "My dear sir, I quite believe it, and I believe you went away again without the power of the Spirit, and that you know nothing about the matter, and are in the gall of bitterness and the bond of iniquity." Do I hear one Christian man saying, "I sought Jesus before he sought me; I went to the Spirit, and the Spirit did not come to me"? No, beloved; we are obliged, each one of us, to put our hands to our hearts and say:

"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes to o'erflow;
'Twas grace that kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."​

 

[Iconoclast]

Gregory Perry Sr

Hello GP, thank you for responding to my post.:wavey:

Icon...and whomever else wants to know....I don't claim to be any kind of expert on Calvinism or any other kind of theology except that of a very basic and simple Christian kind. (You can make what you will of that...doesn't bother me in the least)

What i would make of that is...praise the Lord, that in His great love and mercy he saved such a sinner as you were.:thumbs: Then being we have so great a salvation in common, we should be looking to win the lost and help other believers grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ. To make disciples as MT28 instructs us to do.

That said...what I do understand regarding Calvin's teachings are why I'm NOT a Calvinist and never will be

.

If we were sitting around having a coffee and this discussion i would seek to keep Calvin as one topic,and the teaching known as calvinism as another.
If you made that statement to me i would question you about what your understanding of Calvinism is? what is so bad about it as you understand it?

I have found that most people who make this statement cannot actually say what the teaching is. They have heard second hand teaching from someone who does not understand the teaching and just reject the false ideas passed on by a false teacher.

Then if we were to proceed....and indeed you upon further study discovered that the actual teaching is the truth of God as expressed in His word......would you then say that you would not believe it?

Enough said about that...it's not worth me arguing about. I don't have too...

Truth is worth struggling over GP....it does not have to be an argument,unless someone has an agenda to make a personal attack on someone.....james says about this;

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.

16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

there are plenty of far more learned folk ( on both sides of the issue)than I who will spend countless hours in here (wasted in my opinion) doing just that!

Again....learning ,or contending for the faith is not a waste of time. watching cartoons , or playing cards might be a time waster....but if there is no nursing home, or prison to visit, and you have read and spoken to people all day[hopefully used by God to speak about Kingdom business...then the internet can also be used for good or bad.

Some who come in to start trouble, disrupt, or make unprovoked attacks on believers are wasting time.

I just take the side of the non-cal folks because I believe with all my heart they are right!

Well you should serve the Lord no matter which view you understand.I would however point out that maybe there is a reason why millions of Christians have believed the teachings nicknamed calvinism.Especially if your testimony is that you have not studied enough to know.
in other words...if your desire is to please God....it would seem as if you would spare no expense to make sure the teaching you back is the biblical teaching instead of being critical of what you think the teaching is, because you heard from someone else.:thumbs:

Now...on another note....Bro.Icon correctly pointed out a typo error on my part that might lead some to think that I believe in praying TO people instead of FOR them....what I said (incorrectly) was:

" We truly do need to keep praying and ministering to our lost loved ones,friends and co-workers because as long as they are still here and breathing there is hope."

That SHOULD HAVE READ..."keep praying FOR and ministering to our lost loved ones......".....ooooopps!!:saint:

I'll try to do a better proof-reading job next time....I was hurrying in order to get to prayer meeting on time. "haste makes waste!"

GP....i would not jump on you for a typo....let me clarify what I was saying.....

Why would a non cal pray for salvation for someone....to God...

The non cal position is that Jesus has done all he can....now the sinner must ...
a]accept Jesus

b] reject jesus

So...if you were to pray to God...what would you ask God for?

As a Calvinist....i would ask God if it were possible, if it was His will..could he continue to use his word in that persons heart to convict him of His sin, and that being convicted he would seek God in truth.
I would ask if it was God's will that He[God] would quicken the dead sinner to life, giving him a new heart and new birth by regeneration and covering his sin by the blood...like David in psalm 51...create in me a clean heart..

I would ask God in prayer for God to do this.....

What would you ask God to do? If the teaching you heard is that God is a "gentleman' and he would never violate a persons free will...what would you ask of God? If it is up to the sinner to choose..why not just pray to the sinner instead?
That is why i think herald posted a Spurgeon quote that arminians at prayer meeting are calvinists on their knees.