Criteria for Enabling Belief for the Select Elect

[psalms109:31]

God loved the world that He sent His Son not that the world will be saved, but He loved His enemy that He sent His Son, so that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

I would never disagree with the elect the remnant, How can anyone believe without a messenger with a message to believe in that is why God through Jesus Christ started out with the remnant. He choose them for His purpose to send them out to make more disciple's. God is including people who are not His people with these elect when they hear the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

Acts 10 :
39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”


2 Thessalonians 1 :
Thanksgiving and Prayer

3 We ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters,[ The Greek word for brothers and sisters (adelphoi) refers here to believers, both men and women, as part of God’s family; also in 2:1, 13, 15; 3:1, 6, 13.] and rightly so, because your faith is growing more and more, and the love all of you have for one another is increasing. 4 Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring.
5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

2 Corinthians 3 :
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Proverbs 3:
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;
6 in all your ways submit to him,
and he will make your paths straight.[Or will direct your paths]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the Lord and shun evil.

Proverbs 16:18
Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall.

 

[percho]

How did one enter into the kingdoms of this world? By being born.

Did that one have absolutely anything to do with that taking place?

If, and I believe the word of God will back this up, being saved is the same as entering/inheriting the kingsom of God with eternal life, why would Jesus Christ use the analogy of being born to enter, if man's participation were involved?

All you need is a germinator (God) a means of germinating (the Spirit of the God)
and that to be germinated (the body of Christ, the church, Jerusalem above, the mother of us all.) More analogy. The word of God is full of it.

Jesus by the resurrection became the first-born from the dead, quickening Spirit. When we are conformed to that same resurrected image Jesus will then be the first-born of many brothers (brethren).

We will not have participated in this whatsoever. We will not impregnate ourselves.

That is my humble opinion.

 

[psalms109:31]

We have to be born again, become a new creation in Christ in order to do that we must die to ourselves the first and the new birth is not the same.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

As a Calvinist....i would ask God if it were possible, if it was His will..could he continue to use his word in that persons heart to convict him of His sin, and that being convicted he would seek God in truth. I would ask if it was God's will that He[God] would quicken the dead sinner to life, giving him a new heart and new birth by regeneration and covering his sin by the blood...like David in psalm 51...create in me a clean heart..

I would ask God in prayer for God to do this.....

What would you ask God to do? If the teaching you heard is that God is a "gentleman' and he would never violate a persons free will...what would you ask of God? If it is up to the sinner to choose..why not just pray to the sinner instead?

Icon... I am hoping you are not completely serious here. I am afraid that if you cannot reasonably answer why an Arminian is perfectly reasonable and internally consistent to pray for sinners to come to Christ, than you have been railing against a Theology that you simply don't understand. I think you know that most of these questions you ask are based on a completely skewed view of Arminian Theology.

Arminians could easily play the same stupid "Why would you pray for the Lost?" Game..... because in numerous ways, the question could be asked what would the point be in a Calvinist schema?

1.) If he is "elect" it is already accomplished, and the choice has been made from eternity past... Are you now asking God to possibly change his mind?

2.) If he is not one of the "elect" would a Calvinist be asking God to pencil them in anyway as an afterthought?

3.) If the person IS elect, they are eternally elect, would you be engaging in too little just a tad bit too late since it's already a done deal?

Before you get huffy....although a juvenile Arminian might turn right around and ask these sorts of questions, I DO at least understand Calvinism well enough to know that there are reasonable and internally consistent reasons why a Calvinist should pray for the lost, so I don't ask them.

IMO: It's only ignorance of either Arminianism or Calvinism which results in the "Why pray for the lost" game....it's a stupid game

Here's a list of reasons which are sufficient for EITHER Calvinists OR Arminians:

1.) Scripture tells us to (already sufficient)
2.) Paul did it (a sufficiently good example in itself)
3.) We....here goes....WANT the lost to be saved (a perfectly sufficient reason to pray for them as well)

Honestly, I think you already know the answers yourself and are being only half serious. If you can't answer those elementary questions from an Arminian perspective for yourself, than you have little or no understanding of what you have been railing against.

That is why i think herald posted a Spurgeon quote that arminians at prayer meeting are calvinists on their knees.

For all of his wise statements, this one by Spurgeon is quite stupid. I wouldn't repeat it. It was stupid when he said it, it's stupid now. Spurgeon made a lot of ignorant statements when he jawed about that topic. He's always better when he avoids such topics.

 

[percho]

We have to be born again, become a new creation in Christ in order to do that we must die to ourselves the first and the new birth is not the same.

1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Romans 6

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

6 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly also be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,[Or be rendered powerless] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness. 14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Or the short version. Because Christ has died for you, and you having been baptized into that death, you should: (Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man) and you are going to be raised as he was raised.

 

[psalms109:31]

Or the short version. Because Christ has died for you, and you having been baptized into that death, you should: (Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this the whole of man) and you are going to be raised as he was raised.

Christ lives His life through us without Him we have no life of our own, apart from Him we can do nothing good. In Him we can do what we could not do without Him. It is being sanctified not coming out of the chute all ready.

We are chosen by the new creation not by the old man the old man died so we can be raised to live the new life in Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

A person would have to intentionally misrepresent the Doctrines of Grace to make that claim. We are saved by grace through faith; grace = God's unmerited favor.

That was my point. We too affirm this truth thus you'd likewise have to misrepresent our view of the Doctrines of Grace to make the claim Ann made in the post I replied too...

[15]*For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” [16]*So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

(Romans 9:15-16 ESV)

Even dirty non-elect barbarian Gentiles, who aren't striving in the law to attain righteousness?

I believe Paul's summary of this chapter proves this is the question Paul is addressing:

"30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

 

[Yeshua1]

That was my point. We too affirm this truth thus you'd likewise have to misrepresent our view of the Doctrines of Grace to make the claim Ann made in the post I replied too...


Even dirty non-elect barbarian Gentiles, who aren't striving in the law to attain righteousness?

I believe Paul's summary of this chapter proves this is the question Paul is addressing:

"30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

paul affirms 2 things clearly in Romans...

NONE deserve to be saved, none even seek to get saved by the true God, thru jesus...

Sovereign Will of God is exercised in order to have ANY saved!

 

[quantumfaith]

That was my point. We too affirm this truth thus you'd likewise have to misrepresent our view of the Doctrines of Grace to make the claim Ann made in the post I replied too...


Even dirty non-elect barbarian Gentiles, who aren't striving in the law to attain righteousness?

I believe Paul's summary of this chapter proves this is the question Paul is addressing:

"30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."[/QUOTE]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon... I am hoping you are not completely serious here. I am afraid that if you cannot reasonably answer why an Arminian is perfectly reasonable and internally consistent to pray for sinners to come to Christ, than you have been railing against a Theology that you simply don't understand. I think you know that most of these questions you ask are based on a completely skewed view of Arminian Theology.

Arminians could easily play the same stupid "Why would you pray for the Lost?" Game..... because in numerous ways, the question could be asked what would the point be in a Calvinist schema?

1.) If he is "elect" it is already accomplished, and the choice has been made from eternity past... Are you now asking God to possibly change his mind?

2.) If he is not one of the "elect" would a Calvinist be asking God to pencil them in anyway as an afterthought?

3.) If the person IS elect, they are eternally elect, would you be engaging in too little just a tad bit too late since it's already a done deal?

Before you get huffy....although a juvenile Arminian might turn right around and ask these sorts of questions, I DO at least understand Calvinism well enough to know that there are reasonable and internally consistent reasons why a Calvinist should pray for the lost, so I don't ask them.

IMO: It's only ignorance of either Arminianism or Calvinism which results in the "Why pray for the lost" game....it's a stupid game

Here's a list of reasons which are sufficient for EITHER Calvinists OR Arminians:

1.) Scripture tells us to (already sufficient)
2.) Paul did it (a sufficiently good example in itself)
3.) We....here goes....WANT the lost to be saved (a perfectly sufficient reason to pray for them as well)

Honestly, I think you already know the answers yourself and are being only half serious. If you can't answer those elementary questions from an Arminian perspective for yourself, than you have little or no understanding of what you have been railing against.



For all of his wise statements, this one by Spurgeon is quite stupid. I wouldn't repeat it. It was stupid when he said it, it's stupid now. Spurgeon made a lot of ignorant statements when he jawed about that topic. He's always better when he avoids such topics.

Hello HOS,
Had not heard from you in awhile, hope all is well.
i do have an odd sense of humor sometimes, but on the other hand...this question does need to be raised......

If God has done all that he can...MADE Salvation Possible,but does not actually save in that.......man must do something to become saved. and yet...God cannot or does not regenerate the dead sinner....


but then again,,,this dead sinner is or has the ability to believe on His own..as DHK proudly boasts he did on these other threads...

So even though prayer is commanded.....what would that non cal prayer sound like.....if it is up to the man?

What would you ask God to do????

In fact i hear it all the time on religious radio,and many a post here...here is DHK_
I believed i had faith, God did not give me faith with a needle injecting me.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Hello HOS,
Had not heard from you in awhile, hope all is well.
i do have an odd sense of humor sometimes, but on the other hand...this question does need to be raised......

All is well, Thank you, and I hope all is well with you too :wavey:
I agree that Individuals should "raise those questions" for themselves when they pray because I am sure you are aware that there are indeed those whose prayers are indeed not particularly congruent with their beliefs. Fortunately, our prayers can still be effectual regardless of our failures:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I just object to either Cals or Arms attempting to use those questions as possible defeaters in a debate.

If God has done all that he can...MADE Salvation Possible,but does not actually save in that.......man must do something to become saved. and yet...God cannot or does not regenerate the dead sinner....

Well, he may not exactly have done all he can YET! As far as Christ's atoning work certainly, but there is more to salvation than that. In any Arminian system God still must:

1.) Initiate an individual calling
2.) Provide an enabling or "Prevenient Grace".
3.) The Holy Spirit must convict of sin
4.) Send out his preachers to bring the gospel

These are all things (and there are others) that are necessary for any individual to come to Christ.

but then again,,,this dead sinner is or has the ability to believe on His own..as DHK proudly boasts he did on these other threads...

The dead sinner does not have that ability. Not in themselves anyway. The ability to respond to the call of the gospel is still a gracious gift of God. The only difference is that in the Arminian system it leaves the sinner with the choice and he either may or may not choose to repent. It is still initiated by God, and God enables and convicts first.

So even though prayer is commanded.....what would that non cal prayer sound like.....if it is up to the man?What would you ask God to do????

I think that given the above you can easily see what an Arm. might pray for:
A classic request I hear in Arminian circles is for people to literally pray that God will "give Johnny no peace" unless and until Johnny repents. To continually convict.

Similarly, Arminians often pray for harvesters/preachers to be sent to the lost. They pray that God would use them to reach the lost. Also, many Arminians believe that one can refuse and refuse and harden themselves to the point that they have been rendered incapable of repentance. That Christ no longer "knocks on the doors of their hearts", thus sealing their fate. Often an Arminian might pray that God would continue to patiently call a stubborn sinner etc...

In fact i hear it all the time on religious radio,and many a post here...here is DHK_
I believed i had faith, God did not give me faith with a needle injecting me

I suppose I will let DHK speak for himself on those. I doubt I would disagree with his Theology on such matters much. I haven't seen any recent links to his posts to be able to comment.

 

[quantumfaith]

All is well, Thank you, and I hope all is well with you too :wavey:
I agree that Individuals should "raise those questions" for themselves when they pray because I am sure you are aware that there are indeed those whose prayers are indeed not particularly congruent with their beliefs. Fortunately, our prayers can still be effectual regardless of our failures:

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
I just object to either Cals or Arms attempting to use those questions as possible defeaters in a debate.


Well, he may not exactly have done all he can YET! As far as Christ's atoning work certainly, but there is more to salvation than that. In any Arminian system God still must:

1.) Initiate an individual calling
2.) Provide an enabling or "Prevenient Grace".
3.) The Holy Spirit must convict of sin
4.) Send out his preachers to bring the gospel

These are all things (and there are others) that are necessary for any individual to come to Christ.

The dead sinner does not have that ability. Not in themselves anyway. The ability to respond to the call of the gospel is still a gracious gift of God. The only difference is that in the Arminian system it leaves the sinner with the choice and he either may or may not choose to repent. It is still initiated by God, and God enables and convicts first.

I think that given the above you can easily see what an Arm. might pray for:
A classic request I hear in Arminian circles is for people to literally pray that God will "give Johnny no peace" unless and until Johnny repents. To continually convict.

Similarly, Arminians often pray for harvesters/preachers to be sent to the lost. They pray that God would use them to reach the lost. Also, many Arminians believe that one can refuse and refuse and harden themselves to the point that they have been rendered incapable of repentance. That Christ no longer "knocks on the doors of their hearts", thus sealing their fate. Often an Arminian might pray that God would continue to patiently call a stubborn sinner etc...

I suppose I will let DHK speak for himself on those. I doubt I would disagree with his Theology on such matters much. I haven't seen any recent links to his posts to be able to comment.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[OldRegular]

This argument doesn't hold water in my opinion, because even under the Calvinistic scheme you could claim 'your better' because God chose you.

In my opinion no person who believes the Doctrines of Grace would say God chose them because "they were better". That statement itself is a complete denial of the Doctrines of Grace! And also of Calvinism.

I have yet to see an explanation by those who believe in "freewill salvation" explain why they believe while others don't!

 

[Iconoclast]

HeirofSalvation

Well, he may not exactly have done all he can YET! As far as Christ's atoning work certainly, but there is more to salvation than that. In any Arminian system God still must:

1.) Initiate an individual calling
2.) Provide an enabling or "Prevenient Grace".
3.) The Holy Spirit must convict of sin
4.) Send out his preachers to bring the gospel

These are all things (and there are others) that are necessary for any individual to come to Christ

.

We have substantial agreement here . I of course would put irresitable grace for previenient....but otherwise also believe that the sheep must choose Christ.He must choose Him...everyday, and in everything;

Should i believe this? Christ must be my decision....
Should I go here? " " "
Should I wear this?
should I watch this? should i do this? " "

The dead sinner does not have that ability. Not in themselves anyway. The ability to respond to the call of the gospel is still a gracious gift of God. The only difference is that in the Arminian system it leaves the sinner with the choice and he either may or may not choose to repent. It is still initiated by God, and God enables and convicts first.

Mostly agree, except i do not believe that the sinner.....has that choice. God has commanded that all men everywhere repent
It is not a choice in that way...but men are fully responsible."to choose". When anyone makes that "choice" it was because of Divine enablement....God working in them to will and to do of His good pleasure.

I think that given the above you can easily see what an Arm. might pray for:
A classic request I hear in Arminian circles is for people to literally pray that God will "give Johnny no peace" unless and until Johnny repents. To continually convict.

And this is a proper prayer indeed.My gripe is with the theology that suggests that God has done all he is going to do...and now it is up to you.

God does His part.....the devil does his part...now it is up to you...idea.

Similarly, Arminians often pray for harvesters/preachers to be sent to the lost. They pray that God would use them to reach the lost. Also, many Arminians believe that one can refuse and refuse and harden themselves to the point that they have been rendered incapable of repentance. That Christ no longer "knocks on the doors of their hearts", thus sealing their fate. Often an Arminian might pray that God would continue to patiently call a stubborn sinner etc...


:thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[Herald]

That was my point. We too affirm this truth thus you'd likewise have to misrepresent our view of the Doctrines of Grace to make the claim Ann made in the post I replied too...

Except that the Doctrines of Grace is a more accurate term to describe Calvinism (at least as far as Baptists are concerned). I prefer the Doctrines of Grace instead of Calvinism because of my disagreement with Calvin on ecclesiology and baptism. However "Calvinism" is not an inaccurate term when it is focused solely on soteriology.

You originally said:

This argument doesn't hold water in my opinion, because even under the Calvinistic scheme you could claim 'your better' because God chose you.

So, dispensing with my preferred term (Doctrines of Grace), let me say that Calvinist theology cannot make that claim. Why? Because it is antithetical to what Calvinism teaches in regards to soteriology. If a person made that claim they would be inconsistent with what Calvinism and the Bible teaches.

I want you to believe me when I tell you that it is not my intent to misrepresent Arminianism. In the heat of battle there is always the risk of being careless with our arguments. I have been trying to slow down and measure my words of late. This is important for me to state because if we do not consider that other person credible, and acting with integrity, then it does not matter what their opinion is.

Okay, that said I can honestly say that Arminianism does present some flaws that can lend itself to the accusation that it allows for the teaching that some people are saved because they are better than others. You may personally reject that, but the system has those systemic flaws. Why did "Bob" get saved and "Mary" did not? Well, Bob heard the Gospel and believed, whereas Mary heard it and did not believe. The pivot is Bob's believing. Now, Calvinists and Arminians are agreed on one point; we must believe (faith) in order to be saved. The difference is that Calvinists believe the Bible teaches that we believe after God first makes us capable of believing (regeneration), whereas Arminians believe that regeneration occurs after believing. This is why Calvinists view salvation as completely a work of God, and see the Arminian view as a work of man. That does not mean that believing Arminians are saved by works. Calvinists believe that believing Arminians are saved the same way everyone else is saved, it is just that Calvinists believe Arminians believers are in error.

Even dirty non-elect barbarian Gentiles, who aren't striving in the law to attain righteousness?

A sinner is a sinner. "To the Jew first, and also to the Greek."

I believe Paul's summary of this chapter proves this is the question Paul is addressing:

"30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone."

In context:

[19]*You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” [20]*But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” [21]*Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? [22]*What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23]*in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—[24]*even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? [25]*As indeed he says in Hosea,
“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
[26]*“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
[27]*And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, [28]*for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” [29]*And as Isaiah predicted,
“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”
[30]*What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; [31]*but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. [32]*Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, [33]*as it is written,
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
(Romans 9:19-33 ESV)

Paul is stating that salvation is not based on ethnicity or religious tradition; it is based on the grace of God. God has always had one called out people from the time of Adam until now. Even though Israel was God's covenant people, it was still possible to be born in the covenant nation and go to hell. Why? Because salvation has always been through faith.

[6]*And he [Abram] believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
(Genesis 15:6 ESV)

 

[psalms109:31]

In my opinion no person who believes the Doctrines of Grace would say God chose them because "they were better". That statement itself is a complete denial of the Doctrines of Grace! And also of Calvinism.

I have yet to see an explanation by those who believe in "freewill salvation" explain why they believe while others don't!

I don't believe in a free will that is ridiculous. I do believe we have a free agency in an ability to do what God has given us an ability to do.

Why does one swim and another will not swim. It isn't because God didn't give them the ability to do it. It is not because of God. It is first because of knowledge the next it is because of not learning putting the knowledge into practice. You will not know until you talk and get to know the person. It could be a bad experience with another who says they follow Jesus and they really follow their own will. You just can't assume it is God because He has not given him the ability to do so because that is the only good reason you can come up with.

To trust in God through Jesus Christ and listen and learn from Him gives God the glory and God does not consider it a working your way to heaven only man believes that. I will not be ashamed or feel guilty for spreading the Gospel no matter how many men and women will put me down for it. I will still praise God and be thankful to Him and all He has done and all He will do.

 

[SovereignMercy]

I am not a follower of Calvin and have only quoted him once in all of my life, when I used his commentary on Genesis. I don't mind the term though because I do agree with the five points of Calvinism where we're put forward by the Synod of Dort and called the five points of Calvinism in his honor. All of the arguments come from Scripture not Calvin if you all would all be so kind as to read their findings and reply to what was actually written and defined there.

I refer to the other side as arminians and free-willers in a similar way, your views are based on people who teach those views.

Now my question for all of you is this. If all means all and that's all all means, as I have heard said so many times. What does all mean below?

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

 

[Skandelon]

Except that the Doctrines of Grace is a more accurate term to describe Calvinism

That is a point that certainly could be disputed as I believe our view is much more of a highlight of God's grace than is the limited/inclusive view of Calvinism. "He bound all men over to disobedience so that he might show mercy to them all," not to a preselected few (ref. Rom 11:32), thus our view of Grace and mercy is much bigger than Calvin's.

So, dispensing with my preferred term (Doctrines of Grace), let me say that Calvinist theology cannot make that claim. Why? Because it is antithetical to what Calvinism teaches in regards to soteriology.

I didn't say that Calvinists could claim to be better because they deserved to be chosen, I said they COULD claim to be better on the basis that they WERE chosen. I know you wouldn't, but neither would we in our system, so Ann's accusation is as false for our view as mine was of hers...that was the point...

 

[Herald]

That is a point that certainly could be disputed as I believe our view is much more of a highlight of God's grace than is the limited/inclusive view of Calvinism. "He bound all men over to disobedience so that he might show mercy to them all," not to a preselected few (ref. Rom 11:32), thus our view of Grace and mercy is much bigger than Calvin's.

I have no problem with you calling your soteriology whatever you want. I am also not going to engage in a tug-o-war with you on who's view better personifies grace. Those arguments have been made before and neither of us is inclined to change our mind.

I didn't say that Calvinists could claim to be better because they deserved to be chosen, I said they COULD claim to be better on the basis that they WERE chosen.

No. We cannot. That is my whole point. The Reformed view of soteriology does not allow that claim to be made. It is antithetical to the theology. I understand what you are trying to say, I just cannot grant you your premise.

 

[Skandelon]

I have no problem with you calling your soteriology whatever you want. I am also not going to engage in a tug-o-war with you on who's view better personifies grace. Those arguments have been made before and neither of us is inclined to change our mind.

That is true.

No. We cannot. That is my whole point. The Reformed view of soteriology does not allow that claim to be made. It is antithetical to the theology. I understand what you are trying to say, I just cannot grant you your premise.

You cannot in the same way we cannot...that was my point. It is antithetical to both of our theological views. Just as you can't grant me this premise, I can't grant Ann or anyone who agrees with her, their premise. Are you following my argument now?