Thomas Helwys
New Member
I think that is too harsh.
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Criticizing Roman Catholicism
- Thread starter Thomas Helwys
- Start date
I think that is too harsh.
But if they stayed, would they just try to keep witnessing to friends in there, and eventually be forced to leave in good standing, for their beliefs would clash too much with catholic faith?
For would requiring forcing a decision between following catholic doctrines, or the ones of the Bible?
You can't really dichotomize these two things. There are Catholic doctrines not expressly found in the Bible but there are no Catholic doctrines that contradict the Bible.
Your statement reminds me of a hung jury who came out to announce their inability to render a verdict:
Judge: "Have you reached a verdict?"
Jury forman: "We have not, your Honor. The jury is divided. Six of us want to render a verdict according to law. The other six want to render a verdict consistent with your instructions."
Judge: "Now see here, I'll hold you in contempt."
Jury foreman: "No your Honor. I'm one of the six who want to decide the case according to your instructions, not according to law."
The VERY heart of Rome salvation is the Sacramental system of Grace towards sinners, that is prohibited in the Bible and contridicts the Cross!
Scripture teaches us that the seven sacraments are real. Sacramental grace is not something Baptists are familiar with, but a sacrament is really just a visible sign of invisible grace. The Bible doesn’t use the word “sacrament” but when you look for them you see lots of examples of these visible signs of invisible grace. With Baptists (and other protestants for that matter), they don’t notice these passages of scripture because they aren’t looking for them. After doing quite a bit of digging, here is what I came up with:
1. Baptism. “Jesus answered, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.’” John 3:5. See also 1 Peter 3:21; Acts 22:16; Titus 3:5; Acts 2:38. The visible sign is water.
2. Confirmation. “Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.” Acts 8:17. The visible sign is laying on of hands.
3. Holy Eucharist. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:54. “Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?” 1 Corinthians 10:16. The visible signs are bread and wine.
4. Reconciliation. “And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.’” John 20:22-23. See also 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 9:8. The visible sign is the statement of absolution by the one receiving the confession.
5. Holy Matrimony. “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” Mark 10:7-9. The visible sign is the exchange of the marriage vows.
6. Holy Orders (ordination). “Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.” 1 Timothy 4:14. See also 2 Timothy 1:6; Acts 6:6. The visible sign is the laying on of hands.
7. Anointing of the Sick. “Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.” James 5:14-15. The visible signs are praying and anointing.
The sacraments don't confer grace. The Holy Spirit confers grace through the sacraments, somewhat analogous to the way a hose carries water, and faith is necessary in them all. Yes, the very heart of the Catholic system is the sacramental system of grace toward sinners. It's totally scriptural and anyone who denies it denies the truth of scripture.
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Something that the Bible doesn't teach.
In the OT we see a donkey instructing a man also.
Don't look for things that are not Biblical and, in fact, go against the grain of Scripture.
Nowhere in the passage is baptism mentioned.
John 3:5 teaches one must be born again of the Holy Spirit.
1Peter 1:23 teaches one must be born again of the Word of God.
Thus "water" means the "word of God," not baptism. To say that water means baptism in this passage is heresy. It teaches the heresy of baptismal regeneration.
And so? It has nothing to do with confirmation. Why do you read into Scripture things that are not there? Isaiah laid "figs" on Hezekiah. Does that count as confirmation also?
The elements of bread and wine are symbolic only. This does not confer grace. It is The Lord's Table, done only in remembrance of the death of Christ, to remember the blood that was shed, the body that was given in his death. They are purely symbolic. There is no special grace here.
The breathing on them was prophetic of what was to come--Pentecost.
The only thing that forgives sins is the gospel. In other words, God alone forgives sins, and they had the key to that by giving others the gospel. By receiving the gospel one could have their sins forgiven. The apostles never had the actual power to forgive sins. Only Christ can do that.
It is not a sacrament. They are wedding vows that are made during a wedding ceremony before any ordained ministry. It has nothing to do with the RCC. This has been done ever since Adam and Eve. Were Adam and Eve Roman Catholics also?
In connection with this is the celibacy of the priesthood. The Bible calls this "a doctrine of demons."
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1 Timothy 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
--The church that forbids their clergy to marry teaches doctrines of devils or demons.
There is no grace in that, just heresy.
No sacrament here. It is a command of the Word of God for pastors (not priests), and for special occasions.
There is no such thing as a sacrament. It is a man made doctrine not taught in the Bible. As you say--in the heart of the Catholic system. But it denies scripture, and it denies the truth of scripture no matter what your opinion may be.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I believe that physical circumcision is no longer of any significance.
Originally Posted by Matt Black View Post
"the physical act of covenantal incorporation"
"In both cases, a spiritual circumcision is necessary in addition to the physical act, but to dismiss the importance of the physical is to tend to gnosticism:
Actually its a voyage into Judaism.
"the physical act of covenantal incorporation"
"In both cases, a spiritual circumcision is necessary in addition to the physical act, but to dismiss the importance of the physical is to tend to gnosticism:
Actually its a voyage into Judaism.
I believe we might be misunderstanding each other because I'm uncertain what you mean by "the physical act." Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the physical act of circumcision (removal of foreskin) is no longer of effect for the Jew and has never been required by the Gentile.
Correct; physical circumcision is no longer required.
No - see my comment above.
Do yuo believe as the RCC does that when one partakes of all those things by faith, that htere is inherit Gracing within them, that one gets spiritual 'credited; by God when they are received by faith?
SINCE we are complete in christ when saved by faith in him alone, and have ALL spiritual blessings already found in him...
What else can those things add to us?
Ontological change
which happens at physical death or the rapture, so?
Not just then, surely - see Rom 12:1-2 for example.
You have to understand Yeshua, Roman Catholicism is an unmitigated joke as far as a basis for True Christianity is concerned (& people like Luther proved it in the Reformation).
The RCC, even after years of adjusting, remains corrupt in practice & personnel (many of the RCC's bishops & priests & other personnel are still the scandal of Christendom) & many of they're pretenses of reform have never materialized.
When you add this to the unpleasant fact that the majority of RC adherents are in fact functional illiterates to the bible & they operate as carnal (cafeteria style) Christians who actually abuse the RC System of salvation for their own sinful purposes, then you can see why many of the criticism against them have validity.
That''s a bit low, isn't it?
Nominalism and lip service exist in all denominations as far as I can tell; Elvis Presley was a Pentecostal but committed adultery repeatedly, took drugs and abused his body in other ways. Need I also mention the TV evangelists caught with their pants down or their hands in the till?
Nominalism and lip service exist in all denominations as far as I can tell; Elvis Presley was a Pentecostal but committed adultery repeatedly, took drugs and abused his body in other ways. Need I also mention the TV evangelists caught with their pants down or their hands in the till?
So your saying that the RCC gets a pass because Elvis liked the birds? And you consider that rational?
There is a huge disconnect here that has nothing to do with the sacraments. It is clear from your statement that you believe in "once saved always saved", "eternal security of the believer" or whatever label you choose to hang on this doctrine. If that doctrine were indeed true (and it is not), then the need for the sacraments is mitigated. However, the Bible teaches that one can fall from grace and lose his salvation after being saved. Yes, I know you disagree but just try to see it from my point of view and when you do the sacraments will make a lot more sense.
Of course they make sense anyway if you just take the scripture I cited at face value. In order to reject the sacraments you must reject major portions of scripture.
Incidentally, we are not complete in Christ without baptism, which is the sacramental portal of entry into fellowship with Christ.
only 2 ordinances in the Bible given to the church, namely water baptism to believers, and communion, NEITHER of them convey additional grace to those partaking of them!
Again, when I received Christ thru faith in him, was aved, Holy sprit indwelt me, was moved from kingdom of satan to one of Christ etc
I am complete in him, having ALl spiritual blessings in him, so what can thsoe other things add that he did not already supply me with again?