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Cruel and unjust God?
- Thread starter AustinC
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George Antonios
Well-Known Member
You said I had a false understanding of Calvinism but you're not giving me an answer.
Was it not God himself that so constituted the fallen human nature as to render it unable to even recognize its own sinfulness and unable to believe good news?
(We haven't even touched any decrees yet, mind you)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Not "inability", more "unwillingness". We have an "inability" to make ourselves righteous and an "unwillingness" to approach God and acknowledge our sin.
inability:
[Acts of the Apostles 4:12 NASB] 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
unwillingness:
[John 3:19-20 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
[Romans 1:18-21 NASB] 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
2 questions then:
- So is fallen man able to to recognize his own sinfulness, but unwilling to believe the gospel?
- Was it not God that so constituted the fallen human race in Adam as to render it unwilling (as opposed to unable)?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I suspect the answer is "No." People tend to see what they want to see and to refuse to see what they do not wish to see.
So the 'practical' answer is "fallen man cannot recognize his own sinfulness because he is unwilling to". As a metaphysical possibility, I am unsure if it is absolutely impossible (like a 'married bachelor').
Sorry, that question is WAY above my pay grade. You will need to ask God for the details about how He made Adam.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
I didn't understand all that. In the end, in the Calvinist system, whatever the terminology, it's God himself that made fallen man unable and unwilling. So @canadyjd 's syllogism hid that aspect.
Pharaoh, actually. (vs 17 and 19) Moses brought God's commandment. God hardened Pharaoh to disobey.
Therefore, concludes the Apostle, hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
But how can God yet find fault [with the ones He hardens]? For who hath resisted His will?
It's very simple and straightforward.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I do not know how God made Adam. I do not know the mechanism of the fall.
However Calvinism approaches it from the other direction. It is a simple (and biblical) statement of fact that man IS unwilling and unable, so Calvinism stresses that God Himself saves fallen men by making those saved WILLING and ABLE.
You are starting from the position that fallen men are able and willing ... where is SOVEREIGNTY and GRACE? All I see is Law and a salvation that is the wage of human faith and obedience.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
God did not constitute a “fallen human nature”, He constituted a human nature that was corrupted by man’s rebellion.
I see now that you believe that if someone believes the doctrines of grace they must believe God is responsible for mankind’s evil.
If that is what you are trying to say, I’ll simply disagree.
As I stated earlier, if you cannot accurately state what I believe (and you won’t even acknowledge I’ve answered your question) then meaningful discussion is impossible.
thanks for the conversation
peace to you
I do not...
The very fact that you separate Romans 5 and 9 tells me that you aren't reading the text correctly.....
they Don't exist independent of one another.
They help explain each other, and provide the wider literary context of Paul's intentions.
No...
I understand that Romans 9 is in the middle of an argument chain which extends from roughly chapters 5-11.
I realize that it is not a habit of Calvinist Preachers to read a text through and then exegete it, but, it is so.
Calvinist preachers tend to spend hours belaboring a single verse of Scripture and expounding on it as though it contains self-contained inexhaustible treasures of information.
Here's the secret...
They don't.
The individual verses of an individual chapter of an individual letter written by an apostle who intended................
THE WHOLE BOOK TO BE READ IN ONE SITTING
Provides the context for the book.
Your friend Aaron is raping the text like a a Viking, and he probably isn't even aware of it.
You are close to doing the same.
No where in Scripture does Paul speak to Post-modern Westernist gentiles..........
He's addressing JEWS!!!!!!
Read the passage for crying out loud....an ignorant baby could see it.
I have no complaints against God.
I complain about your blaspheming him.
I blame him for nothing....
I accuse you of preaching a Satanic heresy....
I, however, do not claim that I pray for God to show mercy upon your blasphemies against him, and your false accusations against his character.........
If he shows mercy upon you for repeated blasphemy, that is because he is more merciful than I. And I am not going to lie about my feelings as you quite obviously do.
I do not wish him to spare those who continue to compare my Lord and Saviour to a demon.
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what is this satanic heresy?
That God creates damned children, infected with a disease he subsequently hates them for possessing, and then tortures them forever because, in his "Sovereignty" he decided that that is what he wants to do with them.
It's the most demonic, stupid and evil doctrine I can conceive of.
I am a Calvinist, and agree with Spurgeon on this issue, not Calvin, as all babies go to heaven due to the death of Jesus on their behalf!
HoS, reading the entire letter in one sitting is an excellent idea. Doing so, you will realize that Romans is not written for Jews only. In fact it is written to the whole church and breaks down the difference between law and grace. Many Jews wanted to place the burden of the law upon Christians. None of the Apostles, in their letters, would ever agree to such a foolish proposition. In fact it is summarily called anathema. Paul breaks down the law and then shows how believers are no longer under the condemnation of the law. Those who remain under the law are condemned by the law.
Paul then expresses that the Israel of God is not ethnic Jews, but those whom God has chosen/elected under the promise.
Therefore, you miss the entire message of the letter. You teach Pelagian theology and attempt to call it truth when it is in fact falsehood and not taught by anyone in the Bible.
Did God create sin?
Is God responsible for Adam's rebellion and the corruption that happened due to sin?
Should God have killed off Adam and Eve with no offspring and recreated two new perfect humans?
HoS, since you seem to think you are more wise than God, tell us how God ought to have done things so that your perfect scenario would play out exactly as you planned.
Your judgment of God is noted by us all.
Spurgeon was wrong.
That idea is unbiblical.
Many would have. There's an entire book which seems to have escaped your notice called the book of Acts. Many Apostles battled on that very issue over and over.
That is an ignorant statement.
You continually betray your ignorance of the Scriptures the more you post.
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"Sin" is not a concrete thing with causal effects in the Universe. It is neither "created" or "uncreated" .
I realize that it is a noun (as far as parts of speech are concerned) but so also is the number "2".
The number "2" is neither "created" or "uncreated" either......and also stands in no causal relations.
Calvinists are so full of Medieval backwards superstitions that it's laughable.
Have you ever even thought about how stupid a phrase like "creating sin" is?
Sin isn't even reasonably thought of as a "created thing".
Sin happens to be the transgression of the Law.
The Bible defines it that way.
You define it as a genetic disease present in a human male's spermatazoa.
Your whole Theology is so steeped in Dark age pagan superstition, and you don't realize it.......
I'm not sure you can be helped if that's what you think.
No, Adam was. Only an idiot doesn't know that.
No, Adam was responsible. the whole earth groans as a result of Adam's sin, read your Bible, there's a verse about that, actually.
Why would you ask such an absurd question?
Neither you nor I have sufficient knowledge to speak intelligently on such a topic.
It's a question no one should ask.
God did that which was most conducive to fulfill his perfect plan in the Universe.
I'm not wiser than God.
I am vastly wiser that you...
(Also more well spoken.)
I don't judge God.
I judge your understanding.
I find your understanding wanting. Be as torqued about that as you feel like.
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Read the Jerusalem Council. The issue was settled. You have no support for your view.
It's interesting to see you backtrack and cover.
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