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Culpability
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
1) No one said Jesus speaks of innocent children as evil.
2) Jesus does not say little children are already believers.
Care to revise your post?
Jesus DID say little children are believers.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Notice Jesus starts the discussion by saying "as little children". Jesus did not say "these" children or name specific children. So Jesus was telling his disciples they must be converted and become as ANY child to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Now Jesus speaks of these same children and says whoso shall offend one of these little ones 'WHICH BELIEVE IN ME". Jesus absolutely said children believe in him.
If Jesus would have said "these little children" in verse 3 then you could argue Jesus was speaking of only the children present at this specific time. But Jesus did not say that, he said we must be converted and become "as little children" to enter heaven. Then in verse 6, speaking of these same children Jesus said they believed in him. Can you enter heaven without faith? Was Jesus telling his disciples they must be without faith to enter heaven? Absurd.
The problem is that this is a concept you have never had to face before.
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Hi Winman, the verse is saying we must believe like little children, fully and without reservation, not that little children start out as believers.
Next, you need to do a word study of "little ones." Let me know what you discover.
Bottom line, the idea that children start out as believers is a complete fiction with absolutely no support in scripture. Rather we start out by nature as children of wrath, condemned already because of unbelief and conceived in iniquity.
Next, you need to do a word study of "little ones." Let me know what you discover.
Bottom line, the idea that children start out as believers is a complete fiction with absolutely no support in scripture. Rather we start out by nature as children of wrath, condemned already because of unbelief and conceived in iniquity.
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Baloney, Jesus himself said these little children beliieved in him. I really don't need to do a word study to understand what little ones means, Jesus was speaking of little children. He had picked one of these children up and placed him among the disciples, so it's pretty safe to assume this was a child from 2-5 years old.
Mat 18:2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
Mar 9:36 And he took a child, and set him in the midst of them: and when he had taken him in his arms, he said unto them,
Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Amazing, you call the direct words of Jesus Christ a fiction. It was Jesus who said these little children believed in him.
Deal with it.
Agreed.:love2::love2::love2:
Yep, some folks will go to any extreme to avoid truth. My son is 10 years old, and I bet Van or any other person here would be hard pressed to pick him up and hold him in his arms as the little child described in this passage. This passage is obviously speaking of very little children, probably less than 5 or 6 years old at most, more likely 3 or 4 years old. Most folks believe little children like this incapable of faith, but Jesus himself said they believed in him.
SovereignMercy
Member
Van,
Here's a couple of other passages for you to ignore.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
Here's a couple of other passages for you to ignore.
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
Sad to see Winman using the tactics of Calvinists, pretending to be a mind reader, knowing my lack of love for lost children. Disgusting provincial malarkey.
As far as SovereignMercy, I presented the conceived in iniquity reference as your post is a straight up falsehood. And I certainly agree, in Adam which is the location of mankind at conception, all die, not because they are culpable, for they have done nothing good or evil, but because by the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners. The only salvation is in Jesus, where we are made alive together with Christ.
And the Hebrew word translated little ones (Zechariah 13:7) literally means small pieces or to be broken into small pieces, and metaphorically means to be belittled or brought low. Thus the Hebrew interlinear translates the line “I will restore the hand of me on the despised ones” and Young’s Literal Translation renders it “And I have put back My hand on the little ones. Thus the idea refers to those who have humbled themselves before God. Little children can be "little ones" but so can adults. The common trait is they have humbled themselves and put their trust in God.
As far as SovereignMercy, I presented the conceived in iniquity reference as your post is a straight up falsehood. And I certainly agree, in Adam which is the location of mankind at conception, all die, not because they are culpable, for they have done nothing good or evil, but because by the transgression of the one, the many were made sinners. The only salvation is in Jesus, where we are made alive together with Christ.
And the Hebrew word translated little ones (Zechariah 13:7) literally means small pieces or to be broken into small pieces, and metaphorically means to be belittled or brought low. Thus the Hebrew interlinear translates the line “I will restore the hand of me on the despised ones” and Young’s Literal Translation renders it “And I have put back My hand on the little ones. Thus the idea refers to those who have humbled themselves before God. Little children can be "little ones" but so can adults. The common trait is they have humbled themselves and put their trust in God.
humblethinker
Active Member
Do you believe that people can unbelieve? There ARE people who are damned for unbelief, correct? Are these children 'saved'? Do you believe in OSAS? Do you believe in child evangelism? What of children and people of unreached/'uncivilized' tribes? Is there an age or time when the children become beings who do not believe in Jesus? If it is when they are culpable for their sin then what is it in their development that then makes them culpable?
I have not fully developed my view on this. I do believe man in his natural state can "unbelieve" as you say. This is what Adam and Eve did in the garden. In their natural state they turned from belief to unbelief and so spiritually died.
When God called to Adam and Eve they trusted him and came to God. They believed the promise God gave them of a Saviour, thus Eve's mistake that she believed Cain was from God in Gen 4:1.
So, Adam and Eve were justified when they trusted God, and God clothed them with a skin representing the righteousness imputed to those who believe.
Now, after the giving of the Holy Spirit, man cannot fall back into unbelief. He is now partaker of the divine nature.
1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Cals/Reformed love to point out we are born of God, which is true. But it takes two to give birth. Just as a man and his wife come together to produce a child, so does man's spirit with the Holy Spirit. A child is partly his father, and partly his mother, but he is neither, he is a new creation, a new individual, separate from his parents.
I believe it is the same in spiritual birth, we are partly our natural spirit, and partly the Holy Spirit, but we are neither. We are a brand new creation, a new individual. We are now a "partaker" of the divine nature.
2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
But this new person is partly the Holy Spirit. Now we cannot fall away in unbelief as we were able before.
1 Jhn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
We cannot fall away in unbelief, because the Holy Spirit remains in us and cannot commit this sin.
I hope you understand what I am saying.
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The problem with you Van, and quite a few others here, is that you believe yourselves to be geniuses. You have more pride than logical sense. Your opponent on the other side is exactly the same, two peas in a pod.
Adam's sin did not cause him to physically die. Adam could have eaten of the tree of life and lived forever. If Adam's sin caused physical death then God would not have had to chase them out of the garden or guard the tree of life, they would have died anyway.
Bet you never thought of that did you? No, you are too smart, you already know all the answers. As a consequence of being chased out of the garden, and prevented from eating of the tree of life, all men physically die. It is not because they inherited sin from Adam, you cannot inherit sin. Sin is an act, it is the transgression of the law. You cannot inherit someone else's actions.
Look, I don't have to do a word study on what "little ones" means in Matthew 18. These were small children, the passage says Jesus picked the child up and set him in the midst of the disciples. It says Jesus held the child in his arms. Now it is a real stretch on your part (not mine) to believe this was a teenager. This was very likely a very small child from perhaps 3-5 years old at most. It surely was not a young adult. I don't have to know Greek to figure this out.
But if you want to convince yourself that Jesus was picking up a young adult and holding him in his arms, you go ahead and convince yourself of that. :laugh:
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman you are taking the verses out of context and applying the interpretation you want to them. Look at the passage, the incident:
Matthew 18:1-6
1. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2. And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Jesus Christ is responding to the question in verse 1. In doing so He makes use of a "metaphor". Read verse 3! Do we become "little children" when we were converted. I think not. This metaphor was correctly interpreted earlier by Van. Now I believe that in the remainder of the passage the term "little children" or "little ones" is referring to "true believers" those who have been converted, not the little child of verse 2.
I can read and understand the context just like you. Nevertheless, Jesus told the disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Children are humble, but in your view they are still wicked sinners. Is Jesus telling the disciples to become wicked sinners? Absurd.
Jesus then warns against offending one of these little ones "which believe in me". What does that have to do with humility?
Jesus then tells his disciples that these children have angels which always behold the Father's face. Do you really believe that Jesus is saying lost wicked sinners have guardian angels? Again, completely absurd.
The problem is, you and others have been taught the wicked false doctrine of Augustine since you were a little child, and all of you think children are born in sin. This is utterly false, and if you really examine the scriptures you will see this.
This is exactly what I am trying to show you. Jesus did not call little children wicked lost sinners, he told his disciples they must be converted and become as little children to enter heaven. Jesus said little children believe in him, and Jesus said little children have guardian angels which always behold the Father's face.
So, who do you believe, the word of God or Augustine???
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Did you become a little child when you were converted. I did not! I was still a full grown man!
Children are not humble Winman, not any more!
As for believing that children are "wicked sinners" that is pure nonsense. I have never said or posted that on this forum. I do believe that children are born with a "sin Nature" and that in time they will sin. However, I believe that most if not all children have no concept of sin. Just because they realize that they have done something that their parents disapprove does not make them guilty of sin against God.
I would also add that because a child cries when it is hungry does not make them a selfish wicked sinner. Now if a husband complains to his wife when he gets hungry perhaps he is a selfish wicked sinner. Some need to think on this!
I have stated in the past on this Forum that I do not believe little children need to be saved and have posted articles by Albert Mohler where he deals with this issue.
I did not say it had anything to do with humility. The little ones Jesus Christ refers to here are not the little children of verse 2 but those who have been converted.
You are bearing false witness again here Winman!
You are showing your ignorance again here Winman. You have no idea what I was taught as a child.
Another stupid remark Winman. You are really on a roll today!
Can you present one passage of Scripture that say little children believe? Matthew 18:6 doesn't do it!
Well, the scriptures compare a saved person to a newborn baby.
1 Pet 2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
Jesus said little children are humble. I would not be in the habit of disagreeing with Jesus.
Well, every Calvinist/Reformed persons has their own particular take on this, some say children are not so evil, some say children are utterly corrupt and evil in every way.
The scriptures clearly teach that Jesus took on the same nature as the seed of Abraham (not Adam) and was made like his brethren the Jews in "all things", and that in "all points" was tempted like as we are, yet without sin. So if man is born with a sin nature, then so was Jesus. I refuse to believe that Jesus had a sin nature.
No, all men are born flesh with desires and lusts. Eve clearly lusted after the forbidden fruit before she ate of it, it looked good for food (lust of the flesh), it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes) and was "desired" to make one wise (the pride of life). Yet Eve was not called evil by God but "very good". Eve only became evil when she transgressed God's law and actually ate the forbidden fruit. This is why you cannot inherit sin, sin is an action (or lack of action which you SHOULD do). You cannot inherit someone's action or lack of action.
Good, because I have seen people say it is a sin when a baby cries. Crying is the only self preservation defense God has given newborn babes. Babies need crying to survive!
Well good, but for centuries the church has taught that children are born sinners, thus baptism was necessary to wash away Original Sin. The RCC has taught that babies who died without baptism go to hell for centuries. Other denominations taught the same thing. Horrendous!
Jesus did not tell his disciples they must be converted and become as "THESE" children, read and see for yourself.
Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Did Jesus tell his disciples they must be converted and become as THESE little children? NO. Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become AS LITTLE CHILDREN. This is 100% of all children!! Jesus told his disciples they must be converted and become as ANY little child.
Words are important. Jesus said we must become as little children to enter heaven. Jesus was speaking of ALL children here.
Are you telling me your Baptist church did not teach that children are born sinners? That would be a rare church you attended.
Matthew 18:6 does indeed say little children believe, but you must be logical to get it. In verse 3 Jesus said "as little children" which must mean ALL children. Now in verse 6 when Jesus says "these little ones which believe in me" he is referring directly to the same children he had just spoken of in verse 3. Perhaps you cannot grasp that. "These little ones" in verse 6 are the "little children" in verse 3.
As usual, like most Calvinists/Reformed, you guys insist on Total Depravity until it comes to newborn babies and little children. Then all of you become very inconsistent. You all want to insist babies and little children are evil, but you all also wish to believe if little children die they all go to heaven. Apparently, even Calvinists/Reformed folks have a conscience and sense of right and wrong that refuses to believe babies and little children go to hell. :laugh:
This is your God given conscience and the law written on your heart spoken of in Romans 2. This is why your doctrine of Total Depravity is totally false.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then why did Adam die?
If Adam's sin did not cause physical death {as well as spiritual death} there would have been no need for God to put Adam out of the Garden.
Your argument is contradictory.
If Adam's sin caused physical death, then why was it necessary for God to prevent him from eating of the tree of life? If he sinned, he would die, NO?
It is your view that is contradictory and inconsistent, if Adam's sin would cause him to physically die, why was there a need to prevent him from eating the tree of life?
If Adam would have eaten of the tree of life he would have lived forever in a sinful state, therefore sin does not cause physical death.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That simply means they are ignorant spiritually. Some people remain that way all their life!
You disagree with Him routinely as you post!
The above is close but not quit there. The sin nature was passed through Adam, the man. That is the reason that Jesus Christ was born of a Virgin and coceived of the Holy Spirit! {Matthew 1:20}. All who are conceived by man are born with the "sin nature"!
Eve was created "very good"! But tell us why Scripture tells us in Adam all die. Then consider the following Scripture:
Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Here we are told that sin entered the world by one men, Adam, and death came by sin. You said in post #51
. So you see "W" you are wrong!
We agree on that!
Actually I believe they created Limbo for unbaptized infants.
I didn't say He did. I simply pointed out that Jesus Christ was using a metaphor! Don't get hung up on "these".
So before you can enter heaven you must become a little child. Seen a lot of Christians after they had died. None has become a little child. Hope they were not shocked at death!
i am telling you that you are totally ignorant as to what I was taught as a child!
So you are telling me that all little children believe in Jesus Christ. Therefore they are saved according to Scripture. Now do they ever get unsaved or do they all go to Heaven. That sounds like "universal salvation".
The above slanderous diatribe isn't funny Winman. It is really rather sad that you have no understanding of the Doctrines of Grace.
It is really Total Inability Winman, rather than Total Depravity, and those little children who die and go to Heaven are there simply by the Grace of God, not because of anything they did or did not do.
But actually that is the way we all get there, solely by the Grace of God, because of our "Total Inability" to do anything regarding our Salvation.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
W'man, think what you are saying. God put Adam out of the Garden so he could not eat of the tree of life and live forever! If Adam were not going to die there would have been no problem.
Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
W'man, death entered the world by Adam. I did not make that up Scripture said it. You bragged in an earlier post that you always believed Jesus Christ, so believe Him now!
Genesis 3:22-24
22. And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23. Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Do you see why Adam was put out of the garden W'man?
You are the one who is not thinking, what did God say?
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Adam had sinned, he was now a sinner. Now God must drive out Adam and Eve before they eat of the tree of life and live forever as sinners. This proves sin does not cause physical death, otherwise there was no need to prevent Adam from eating of this tree, he would die anyway.
You don't get it, Adam could have lived FOREVER AS A SINNER.
Read this chapter and you will easily see Paul is speaking of spiritual death and not physical. He uses the words condemnation, offence, transgression, judgment, obedience, disobedience, justification, righteousness, etc... These are all LEGAL terms, Paul is not speaking of physical death whatsoever.
Yes, because he would have physically lived forever as a sinner! You are supporting my argument and refuting yours.
You don't get it, Adam could have lived forever as a sinner. Therefore sin does not cause physical death.