Culpability

[OldRegular]

Read this chapter and you will easily see Paul is speaking of spiritual death and not physical. He uses the words condemnation, offence, transgression, judgment, obedience, disobedience, justification, righteousness, etc... These are all LEGAL terms, Paul is not speaking of physical death whatsoever.

Tell us W'man, just what is this "spiritual death" that Paul is talking about? How does it different from physical death?

 

[Van]

The problem with you Van, and quite a few others here, is that you believe yourselves to be geniuses. You have more pride than logical sense. Your opponent on the other side is exactly the same, two peas in a pod.

Yet another assertion of mind reading, address my character rather than my views. Disgusting use of a logical fallacy.

Adam's sin did not cause him to physically die. Adam could have eaten of the tree of life and lived forever. If Adam's sin caused physical death then God would not have had to chase them out of the garden or guard the tree of life, they would have died anyway.

Non germane

Bet you never thought of that did you? No, you are too smart, you already know all the answers. As a consequence of being chased out of the garden, and prevented from eating of the tree of life, all men physically die. It is not because they inherited sin from Adam, you cannot inherit sin. Sin is an act, it is the transgression of the law. You cannot inherit someone else's actions.

No quote or statement supports this assertion, you are just making up charges to disparage me. Nonsense.

Did I say anyone inherited sin? Nope so yet another falsehood. I said as a consequence of Adam's sin, the many were made sinners. You can claim scripture does not mean what it says, but I accept what it says.

Look, I don't have to do a word study on what "little ones" means in Matthew 18. These were small children, the passage says Jesus picked the child up and set him in the midst of the disciples. It says Jesus held the child in his arms. Now it is a real stretch on your part (not mine) to believe this was a teenager. This was very likely a very small child from perhaps 3-5 years old at most. It surely was not a young adult. I don't have to know Greek to figure this out.

You are without a clue. I did not say nor suggest they were teenagers. Does whoever humbles himself as this child, refer to the child or to anyone who humbles himself? Can you not read???

But if you want to convince yourself that Jesus was picking up a young adult and holding him in his arms, you go ahead and convince yourself of that. :laugh:

Winman you can knock down strawmen of your own creation till the cows come home, your assertion that little children are believers at conception and therefore not condemned is irrational.

 

[Winman]

Tell us W'man, just what is this "spiritual death" that Paul is talking about? How does it different from physical death?

Spiritual death means to be condemned.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

To be spiritually dead means to be condemned by God. It is like being on death row, you are convicted and condemned by the law and are awaiting execution. Those who are condemned will be cast into the lake of fire.

The moment Adam and Eve sinned they spiritually died. In addition to this, God also said they would return to the dust. This was a consequence of their sin.

Paul was not speaking of physical death in Romans 5, the terms he uses are legal terms. Paul is speaking of being convicted by the law, being judged and condemned by the law.

Paul shows the same thing in Romans 7.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul here tells us that it is the law that taught him what sin is. So Paul is speaking of the time when he learned the law and became aware of what sin is.

Paul says he was alive without the law once. When could this be?, the law was written 1500 years before Paul was born. So, obviously Paul is speaking of that time before he learned the law and became aware of sin. When Paul understood the law and knew what sin is, he was convicted by the law and spiritually died.

Paul could not be saying he physically died here, that would be ridiculous. :laugh:

So, as you see, Paul is speaking of spiritual death, of being convicted and condemned by the law for committing sin, he is not speaking of physical death whatsoever.

 

[Van]

By the transgression of the one [Adam] the many were made sinners. This is the truth Winman denies. It does not say they were made guilty of Adam's sin, yet Winman argues as if that was the teaching.

We all start out by nature as children of wrath. Winman says we start out as children of God and then become children of wrath when we first volitionally sin. He just makes it up.

He claims infants start out as believers, rather than being condemned already because of unbelief.

 

[OldRegular]

Spiritual death means to be condemned.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

To be spiritually dead means to be condemned by God. It is like being on death row, you are convicted and condemned by the law and are awaiting execution. Those who are condemned will be cast into the lake of fire.

And how does one get off of death row?

Do they tell the warden: "I want to get off death row?" And the warden says what?

Or do they have to get a pardon from the Governor?

Which is it W'man?

 

[OldRegular]

Winman in Post #51!

Adam's sin did not cause him to physically die.

Winman in Post #63!

The moment Adam and Eve sinned they spiritually died. In addition to this, God also said they would return to the dust. This was a consequence of their sin.

So W'man you are having trouble tonight making up your mind? How does one return to the dust unless they physically die?

 

[Cypress]

Winman in Post #51!



Winman in Post #63!



So W'man you are having trouble tonight making up your mind? How does one return to the dust unless they physically die?

Come on OR, you know he meant they did not physically die the moment they ate the fruit. Only that physical death came to all as a consequence of the transgression.

 

[Winman]

And how does one get off of death row?

Do they tell the warden: "I want to get off death row?" And the warden says what?

Or do they have to get a pardon from the Governor?

Which is it W'man?

Pardons are in fact applied for.

Pardons are not reserved for famous people or political figures; anyone can apply for a presidential pardon. A great amount of paperwork and politics is involved, but the effort is worth it if the pardon is granted.

A person seeking a presidential pardon needs to assemble documentation that includes his work history, residence, military record (if applicable), detailed criminal history, and the application for restoration of civil rights (if applicable). He needs to state valid and concrete reasons why the pardon should be granted, and must include supporting evidence. The applicant needs character references, and it would benefit him to retain or seek the advice of an attorney who is experienced in the pardon process, to ensure that all of the needed paperwork is included in the application.

You fellas never cease to embarrass yourselves.

 

[Winman]

By the transgression of the one [Adam] the many were made sinners. This is the truth Winman denies. It does not say they were made guilty of Adam's sin, yet Winman argues as if that was the teaching.

We all start out by nature as children of wrath. Winman says we start out as children of God and then become children of wrath when we first volitionally sin. He just makes it up.

He claims infants start out as believers, rather than being condemned already because of unbelief.

You are not quoting the entire verse.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If by Adam's disobedience many were unconditionally made sinners, then also by Jesus's obedience many are unconditionally made righteous.

Is that true? Are persons unconditionally made righteous because of Jesus's obedience? NO, a person must believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous, it is conditional.

Likewise, a person must sin just as Adam sinned to be made a sinner. It is not unconditional, but conditional.

In this passage of Romans 5 there is a parallelism to every verse, what applies to the first half of the verse must also apply to the second half of the verse. So if men are unconditionally made sinners by Adam, then men are unconditionally made righteous by Jesus.

Van, you constantly accuse others of being shoddy, but it was you who was shoddy here.

 

[OldRegular]

You fellas never cease to embarrass yourselves.

Ain't it the truth!

Winman in Post #51!

Originally Posted by Winman

Adam's sin did not cause him to physically die.

Winman in Post #63!

Originally Posted by Winman

The moment Adam and Eve sinned they spiritually died. In addition to this, God also said they would return to the dust. This was a consequence of their sin.

So W'man you are having trouble tonight making up your mind? How does one return to the dust unless they physically die?

__________________

 

[Van]

Pitchback

You are not quoting the entire verse.

Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

If by Adam's disobedience many were unconditionally made sinners, then also by Jesus's obedience many are unconditionally made righteous.

Is that true? Are persons unconditionally made righteous because of Jesus's obedience? NO, a person must believe on Jesus to be imputed righteous, it is conditional.

Likewise, a person must sin just as Adam sinned to be made a sinner. It is not unconditional, but conditional.

In this passage of Romans 5 there is a parallelism to every verse, what applies to the first half of the verse must also apply to the second half of the verse. So if men are unconditionally made sinners by Adam, then men are unconditionally made righteous by Jesus.

This effort to interpret the verse as teaching universalism is well known and fundamentally flawed. The first action, by the sin of the one, the many were made, past tense, sinners, has already occurred. If a child is conceived, he would have to be already made a sinner. The verse does not read, the many were made potential sinners.

Turning now the second part of the verse, through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. Winman's premise is that the many in the second refers to all mankind. If that was true, then that would be universalism. Therefore, either the many refers to everyone in both cases, i.e. universalism, or the many refers to those in Adam in the first part, and those in Christ in the second part. The conditional is how did we get to be "in Adam" at conception, and how will those get to be in Christ at salvation.

So the result of the sin of Adam was the condemnation of all men, something that has already happened, so at conception we are condemned already. But what was the result of Christ's obedience, justification of life to all men, i.e. the opportunity to be justified. So the second part refers to a condition of God crediting our faith as righteousness and placing us in Christ, but the first part has already occurred at conception.

What Winman denies is that by the transgression of the one the many, all mankind, were made sinners.

 

[humblethinker]

Interesting article about original sin

While I'm cautious about what I read from AiG, I thought this article brought out some interesting points for and against the idea of transmission of original sin through physical world instead of through relational nurturing or other means or definition.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/2011/02/18/feedback-original-sin

 

[Yeshua1]

Do we need to be redeemed because of what we are or what we do? Culpability only rests upon one of the options. What say ye? No, there is no third option in this poll. If you want to try and espouse a third option, start another poll or thread.

because of WHo we are! We are ALL sinners that are in Adam by physical birth, and only hope to be saved is tio be reborn again into Jesus!

 

[Winman]

This effort to interpret the verse as teaching universalism is well known and fundamentally flawed. The first action, by the sin of the one, the many were made, past tense, sinners, has already occurred. If a child is conceived, he would have to be already made a sinner. The verse does not read, the many were made potential sinners.

Turning now the second part of the verse, through the obedience of the One, the many will be made righteous. Winman's premise is that the many in the second refers to all mankind. If that was true, then that would be universalism. Therefore, either the many refers to everyone in both cases, i.e. universalism, or the many refers to those in Adam in the first part, and those in Christ in the second part. The conditional is how did we get to be "in Adam" at conception, and how will those get to be in Christ at salvation.

So the result of the sin of Adam was the condemnation of all men, something that has already happened, so at conception we are condemned already. But what was the result of Christ's obedience, justification of life to all men, i.e. the opportunity to be justified. So the second part refers to a condition of God crediting our faith as righteousness and placing us in Christ, but the first part has already occurred at conception.

What Winman denies is that by the transgression of the one the many, all mankind, were made sinners.

What I deny is that we get in Adam unconditionally. If a person reads carefully, the first thing this passage tells you is that all those persons from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of the same transgression as Adam.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This verse clearly says these persons did not sin after the similitude of Adam's sin, but that seems to go right over your head.

If Adam's sin was imputed to us, then we would be guilty of Adam's very sin, it would be just as if we had committed Adam's exact sin ourselves. You don't get it, but this verse is completely refuting your view.

The reason men die was already explained by Paul in chapter 2. There Paul explained that men without the law shall perish without the law because they have the law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Your problem is that you pull chapter 5 out of context, Paul has already explained why those men from Adam to Moses who had not the law died. He doesn't even mention Adam here.

Besides all of this, God himself clearly said that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You constantly criticize others for shoddy study, while you misinterpret a vague and difficult verse to understand, while completely ignoring scripture that directly deals with the subject of whether sin is imputed to the son from his father. This scripture in Ezekiel is clear as a bell and unmistakeable, but you completely ignore it.

Shoddy.

 

[Yeshua1]

What I deny is that we get in Adam unconditionally. If a person reads carefully, the first thing this passage tells you is that all those persons from Adam to Moses DID NOT sin after the similitude of the same transgression as Adam.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This verse clearly says these persons did not sin after the similitude of Adam's sin, but that seems to go right over your head.

If Adam's sin was imputed to us, then we would be guilty of Adam's very sin, it would be just as if we had committed Adam's exact sin ourselves. You don't get it, but this verse is completely refuting your view.

The reason men die was already explained by Paul in chapter 2. There Paul explained that men without the law shall perish without the law because they have the law written on their hearts.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Your problem is that you pull chapter 5 out of context, Paul has already explained why those men from Adam to Moses who had not the law died. He doesn't even mention Adam here.

Besides all of this, God himself clearly said that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You constantly criticize others for shoddy study, while you misinterpret a vague and difficult verse to understand, while completely ignoring scripture that directly deals with the subject of whether sin is imputed to the son from his father. This scripture in Ezekiel is clear as a bell and unmistakeable, but you completely ignore it.

Shoddy.

We are born as sinners, whose very nature comes out in the sinful decisions that we make!

 

[Winman]

We are born as sinners, whose very nature comes out in the sinful decisions that we make!

Wow, what a convincing argument, I am overwhelmed with the logical and scriptural proof you have provided for your view. Who could possibly argue with this?

 

[Cypress]

We are born as sinners, whose very nature comes out in the sinful decisions that we make!

So, for you, Eve and Adam were created sinners and that is why they sinned?

 

[OldRegular]

So, for you, Eve and Adam were created sinners and that is why they sinned?

They sinned because they had free will. They could have "not sinned"! Since then mankind has been in bondage to sin. Mankind will sin!

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

 

[Cypress]

They sinned because they had free will. They could have "not sinned"! Since then mankind has been in bondage to sin. Mankind will sin!

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

We die because they sinned.

 

[OldRegular]

We die because they sinned.

That is what Scripture tells us!

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: