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Cured
- Thread starter GordonSlocum
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Even if we do not all murder (even though Jesus said we do), and even if all people have the ability to do some of the things that they are commanded to do, it does not prove that all people have the ability to do all that they are commanded to do.Helen said:
And if you think that I believe God is sadistic then it only proves that you haven't grasped what Calvinists believe yet.
And where does Scripture say that we will be judged according to the good that we wanted to do, whether we did it or not? The evil that we want to do is sin, even if we do not actually do it. I think you have it backward.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
I agree 100%. Most have slipped into Pelagianism.whatever said:
In case anyone is interested here is a summary of what the first real live Arminians believed. The full article is found at http://www.all-of-grace.org/pub/others/deathofdeath.html. These ideas were soundly rejected when they were first introduced, but it is pretty easy to see that they are still alive today.
It is also interesting to compare these ideas to Bro. Slocum's OP.
It is interesting to me that back then the majority did not have a problem rejecting the notion that "ability limits obligation", and yet they would have never characterized God as "sadistic".
It is also interesting to compare these ideas to Bro. Slocum's OP.
You know, that is not quite the way Arminius taught it. He DID believe in total depravity.
Here's an article from Wikipedia for want of anything else handy: (It is a pretty good article.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism
Excerpt:
"Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."
I guess I might as well go ahead and post Arminius' Articles of Remonstrance:
Article I - That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article II - That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John iii. 16: "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"; and in the First Epistle of John ii. 2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only. but also for the sins of the whole world."
Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.
Article V — That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand; and if only they are ready for the conflict. and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our minds.
Here's an article from Wikipedia for want of anything else handy: (It is a pretty good article.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism
Excerpt:
"Depravity is total: Arminius states "In this [fallen] state, the free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace."
I guess I might as well go ahead and post Arminius' Articles of Remonstrance:
Article I - That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ, his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John iii. 36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," and according to other passages of Scripture also.
Article II - That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, died for all men and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption, and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins, except the believer, according to the word of the Gospel of John iii. 16: "God so loved the world that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"; and in the First Epistle of John ii. 2: "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only. but also for the sins of the whole world."
Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free-will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.
Article V — That those who are incorporated into Christ by a true faith, and have thereby become partakers of his life-giving spirit, have thereby full power to strive against Satan, sin, the world, and their own flesh, and to win the victory, it being well understood that it is ever through the assisting grace of the Holy Ghost; and that Jesus Christ assists them through his Spirit in all temptations, extends to them his hand; and if only they are ready for the conflict. and desire his help, and are not inactive, keeps them from falling, so that they, by no craft or power of Satan, can be misled, nor plucked out of Christ's hands, according to the word of Christ, John x. 28: "Neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." But whether they are capable, through negligence, of forsaking again the first beginnings of their life in Christ, of again returning to this present evil world, of turning away from the holy doctrine which was delivered them, of losing a good conscience, of becoming devoid of grace, that must be more particularly determined out of the Holy Scriptures before we ourselves can teach it with the full persuasion of our minds.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
So far from the truth!!!
1 John 4
If we endure , we will also reign with Him. If we disown Jesus He will disown us. When we are faithless God is faithful to do what He say's is going to do because God cannot disown Himself or His word.
1 John 4
If we endure , we will also reign with Him. If we disown Jesus He will disown us. When we are faithless God is faithful to do what He say's is going to do because God cannot disown Himself or His word.
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Tom Butler
New Member
Matthew 5:48: Be ye therefore perfect, as your father in heaven in perfect.
Amity, I understand that yours is a common interpretation for v 48. I can cite some commentators who do hold that it refers to sinlessly perfect.
Either way, the principle remains the same. Jesus has set an impossible standard for us. Whether it's sinlessness, completeness, spiritual maturity or a perfect love, the command is for us to be like God. Or to strive to be like Him.
It should be the goal of all believers, but it is a goal that we cannot achieve in this life.
So the principle remains. Jesus has commanded us to do something that we cannot do. And Jesus cannot demand from us less than perfection. He cannot tell us it's okay to be a sinner. That, of course, is why he died on the cross.
amity said:
Amity, I understand that yours is a common interpretation for v 48. I can cite some commentators who do hold that it refers to sinlessly perfect.
Either way, the principle remains the same. Jesus has set an impossible standard for us. Whether it's sinlessness, completeness, spiritual maturity or a perfect love, the command is for us to be like God. Or to strive to be like Him.
It should be the goal of all believers, but it is a goal that we cannot achieve in this life.
So the principle remains. Jesus has commanded us to do something that we cannot do. And Jesus cannot demand from us less than perfection. He cannot tell us it's okay to be a sinner. That, of course, is why he died on the cross.
This is exactly the point. It is in the call, and so only those who receive the effectual call respond. That is the only way to understand 1 Cor 1 and Rom 8 without making mincemeat of the text. Your theology will not allow you to believe what these texts say, and so you reject it.
This is incorrect. In this example, the dog can hear the whistle because of something in the dog. In the effectual call, the called can respond because of something in the call.
No, not at all. Every Calvinist that I know of agrees that unbelievers make the spiritual choice to reject God and his word. That is hardly unconsciousness.
I think this is true, but I think your position is hardly the solution inasmuch as it denies what Scripture says.
And God says that eternal salvation is for those who have faith. Since God gives us faith (Phil 1:29) that means that this salvation is still all of God.
Yes. It was written to call people to faith in Christ, among other things.
Yes.
Yes, partially. It is also written to condemn people for unbelief, and to create faith in him for salvation.
The position you hold, Pinoybaptist, is not really even evangelical. That is very problemmatic. When you deny that faith is necessary for salvation, then you are denying the clear teaching of Scripture.
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This continues to be a false statement.
1. To say no one goes to hell for sinning contradicts passages like Rev 21:8, Rev 20:11-15, Rom 6:23, etc. There, it makes clear that sin is the cause for people going to hell.
2. This statement denies that unbelief is a sin. Rom 1:4 tells us that faith is obedience, and 2 Thess 1:8 tells us that eternal destruction comes to those who "do not obey the gospel" which clearly means those who do not believe. Unbelief is a sin because it is disobedience to the command of God to believe in Christ for salvation.
3. This statement further denies the completeness of Christ's atonement in that it leaves sin that Jesus did not pay for. It leads essentially to a works salvation in that the sin of unbelief is not atoned for by Christ's death, but by the believer's choice to believe.
4. If this position were right, it makes God unjust becuase he sends people to hell for sins that have been paid for. If unbelief was not a sin, then it is not worthy of hell, and a just God would not send people to hell for it. If unbelief was a sin, then it was paid for by Christ, and God sends people to hell for a sin that was paid for. In either scenario, the justice of God is irreparably compromised.
All three reasons render this assertion unbiblical. These are the philosophical ruminations that come from those determined to make God fit in a box of human understanding. It refuses to acknowledge the revelation of God about the sin of unbelief and the nature of the atonement. It insists on human ideas of fairness, ideas that originate in a mind darkened by sin and naturally resistant to revelation.
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You've got that right Pastor Larry -- philosophical ruminations . Folks from the other side of the aisle continually fall prey to that kind of human reasoning and speculation . They think that they are more gracious than the God of the Bible is ! They invoke the equal-opportunity God who does not exist .
Helen , the Lord did not pay for the sins of the reprobate . ( Broken record time .) He laid down His life for His sheep and no one else . It was the Church ( and only the church ) that He bought with His own blood .
If unbelief and not sin is the reason people are condemned to outer darkness -- what about the multipled millions who have never heard about Jesus and the gospel ? Those who never heard about anything in Holy Writ ? Are they condemned for unbelief or their sin ?
Helen , the Lord did not pay for the sins of the reprobate . ( Broken record time .) He laid down His life for His sheep and no one else . It was the Church ( and only the church ) that He bought with His own blood .
If unbelief and not sin is the reason people are condemned to outer darkness -- what about the multipled millions who have never heard about Jesus and the gospel ? Those who never heard about anything in Holy Writ ? Are they condemned for unbelief or their sin ?
GordonSlocum
New Member
Rippon said:
Rippon - How are you today? I am sure Pastor Larry is proud of you.
Just a reminder in the defense for Helen who, by the way, has not stooped to your level. Look at your post and notice how ugly you are in your language. I wonder if the moderators will let it slide in that you are a Calvinist.
Here are some rock solid Biblical Passages that just absolutely refute your view.
Helen, thanks for standing on Bible Truth. I for one am glad you don't follow the philosphy as you have been accusde of.
I Timothy 4:10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Hebrews 2:9. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
II Peter 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
I John 2: 2. And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world
psalms109:31
Active Member
Sent us out
Jesus has sent us out to reach the millions who never heard the Gospel.
God has put those people in our hands if we do not reach them them we as a body will be held accountible for thier blood.
God is only going to save those who are in Jesus Christ anyone outside of Jesus is dead.
Some people believe that the good news is that some can never get this hope in Jesus, even though God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
God does not depend on us to be saved, we depend on God through Jesus Christ to be saved and we are His messengers.
Jesus has sent us out to reach the millions who never heard the Gospel.
God has put those people in our hands if we do not reach them them we as a body will be held accountible for thier blood.
God is only going to save those who are in Jesus Christ anyone outside of Jesus is dead.
Some people believe that the good news is that some can never get this hope in Jesus, even though God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
God does not depend on us to be saved, we depend on God through Jesus Christ to be saved and we are His messengers.
From Rippon: You've got that right Pastor Larry -- philosophical ruminations . Folks from the other side of the aisle continually fall prey to that kind of human reasoning and speculation . They think that they are more gracious than the God of the Bible is ! They invoke the equal-opportunity God who does not exist .
The Bible disagrees with you:
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls." Matthew 11:28-29
"This [prayers for those in authority] is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:1
From Rippon: Helen , the Lord did not pay for the sins of the reprobate . ( Broken record time .) He laid down His life for His sheep and no one else . It was the Church ( and only the church ) that He bought with His own blood .
The Bible disagrees with you:
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
Hebrews 2:9
"Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."
Hebrews 7:27
"But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God."
Hebrews 10:12
From Rippon: If unbelief and not sin is the reason people are condemned to outer darkness -- what about the multipled millions who have never heard about Jesus and the gospel ? Those who never heard about anything in Holy Writ ? Are they condemned for unbelief or their sin ?
Let the Bible answer you:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
Psalm 19:1-4a
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
'Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.'"
Romans 10:17-18
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the trugh by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities --his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Romans 1:18-20
from Job -- the earliest completed book of the Bible --
"I know that my Redeemeer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself wil see him with my own eyes
-- I, an not another.
How my heart yearns within me!"
Job 19:25-27
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Job 3:16-21
The Bible disagrees with you:
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart and you will find rest for your souls." Matthew 11:28-29
"This [prayers for those in authority] is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."
1 Timothy 2:1
From Rippon: Helen , the Lord did not pay for the sins of the reprobate . ( Broken record time .) He laid down His life for His sheep and no one else . It was the Church ( and only the church ) that He bought with His own blood .
The Bible disagrees with you:
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."
Hebrews 2:9
"Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself."
Hebrews 7:27
"But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God."
Hebrews 10:12
From Rippon: If unbelief and not sin is the reason people are condemned to outer darkness -- what about the multipled millions who have never heard about Jesus and the gospel ? Those who never heard about anything in Holy Writ ? Are they condemned for unbelief or their sin ?
Let the Bible answer you:
"The heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."
Psalm 19:1-4a
"Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
'Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.'"
Romans 10:17-18
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the trugh by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities --his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Romans 1:18-20
from Job -- the earliest completed book of the Bible --
"I know that my Redeemeer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself wil see him with my own eyes
-- I, an not another.
How my heart yearns within me!"
Job 19:25-27
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Job 3:16-21
When people think and insist that the Bible was written for all of mankind, and not just for God's people, then it is unavoidable to take Scriptures out of context as some are apt to do with such texts as Helen and the others here cite.
It is also natural to be "missions-minded" and to preach Christ as if He was still about to be Savior.
It is also natural to be "missions-minded" and to preach Christ as if He was still about to be Savior.
Which of these verses do you think Calvinists disagree with? You quote them as they disprove Calvinism, but they don't.
Helen cites some of the same verses, but for some reason doesn't bother to interact with the verses that show she is wrong. In other words, "her verses" fit perfectly into what we believe. But she cannot account for the truth of the verses she ignores. She has to change what they say in order to get around them. I have never found that to be a convincing way to do theology. I believe theology starts with the revelation of God in Scripture. For that reason, I am a biblicist, first, last, and always.
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