Cured

[Pastor Larry]

When people think and insist that the Bible was written for all of mankind, and not just for God's people, then it is unavoidable to take Scriptures out of context as some are apt to do with such texts as Helen and the others here cite.
It is also natural to be "missions-minded" and to preach Christ as if He was still about to be Savior.

Strangely, enough, the NT presents a "missions minded" church. It is not built on a Christ that is about to be a Savior. He is the Savior, and he is the Lord. And salvation is for those who call on his name. There is no salvation apart from that.

As I said above, theology has to start with the Bible, not with philosophy. You are deficient in that area, and it shows in your theological assertions.

 

[GordonSlocum]

When people think and insist that the Bible was written for all of mankind, and not just for God's people, then it is unavoidable to take Scriptures out of context as some are apt to do with such texts as Helen and the others here cite.
It is also natural to be "missions-minded" and to preach Christ as if He was still about to be Savior.

Is there any way you can translate this into English?

:saint: Gordon

 

[Helen]

When people think and insist that the Bible was written for all of mankind, and not just for God's people, then it is unavoidable to take Scriptures out of context as some are apt to do with such texts as Helen and the others here cite.
It is also natural to be "missions-minded" and to preach Christ as if He was still about to be Savior.

Feel free to put them 'back in context' and show folks that they don't mean what they are plainly saying.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Which of these verses do you think Calvinists disagree with? You quote them as they disprove Calvinism, but they don't.

Helen cites some of the same verses, but for some reason doesn't bother to interact with the verses that show she is wrong. In other words, "her verses" fit perfectly into what we believe. But she cannot account for the truth of the verses she ignores. She has to change what they say in order to get around them. I have never found that to be a convincing way to do theology. I believe theology starts with the revelation of God in Scripture. For that reason, I am a biblicist, first, last, and always.

Hi Larry,

for me I fully realize that you or others and including me - we all feel we are right concerning the Scripture.

The issue is not as you have presented it, "which of these verses do you think Calvinist disagree with?" All of us who believe the Bible from cover to cover make that claim. “I agree with what it says.”

Perhaps you could state how you understand these verses in light of your theology.

Again, and not speaking for Helen, I believe your response would be better served if you address how you see these verses as you have them fit into your view.

Larry you say,

"But she cannot account for the truth of the verses she ignores.

I know my response to this, and it might be Helen's too, but she will have to address that, would be: (Larry you cannot account for the truth of the verses you ignor.) It is a good tactic but it wolks both way. In hill billy talk you are slick and I give you credit for having slickness. It is called turning the tables in everyday language. :laugh: :applause:

Let everyone know how you interpret them. We can either agree or disagree and move on.

:saint: Gordon

 

[Helen]

Thank you, Gordon. You can consider yourself speaking for me regarding that post as well.

 

[skypair]

This is exactly the point. It is in the call, and so only those who receive the effectual call respond. That is the only way to understand 1 Cor 1 and Rom 8 without making mincemeat of the text. Your theology will not allow you to believe what these texts say, and so you reject it.

This is incorrect. In this example, the dog can hear the whistle because of something in the dog. In the effectual call, the called can respond because of something in the call.

OK, I'll bite. What is it in the call, then? What is it that only the elect react? Mybe you're not as Calvinist as I thought.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Rippon

You've got that right Pastor Larry -- philosophical ruminations . Folks from the other side of the aisle continually fall prey to that kind of human reasoning and speculation . They think that they are more gracious than the God of the Bible...

Are you not carnal, my Calvinist friend? "For while one saith, 'I am of Paul; 'I am of Apollos;' and 'I am of Calvin;' are ye not carnal?" 1Cor 3:6

What's your foundation, mr. "philosophical rumination?" Calvin or Christ? "But let evey man take heed how he buildeth thereon." 1Cor 3:10

Like I told Christian Youth, you speak "Calvin-speak" -- a tongue that the rest of us believers do not understand. Almost none of the terms common to Christianity have the same meaning Calvinists. You must be, as I also told Christian Youth, a "professional theologian" with your own theories about how Christianity works but requiring special terminology to make it all work.

Just keep looking down your nose at us and "professing yourself to be wise, becoming a fool" instead. You have "changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man," rippon! Your foolish heart has become darkened -- your sin will find you out sooner rather than later.

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

Feel free to put them 'back in context' and show folks that they don't mean what they are plainly saying.

Oh, but that will be an exercise in futility, Helen, because you already know exactly who Peter was addressing in his letter.

 

[rsr]

There's a train wreck ahead - involving several cars - if things don't cool off a bit.

Please don't let it get out of hand.

Thank you.

rsr

 

[Helen]

Oh, but that will be an exercise in futility, Helen, because you already know exactly who Peter was addressing in his letter.

That particular section of the letter is talking about all people and not just the people he was writing to. He was reassuring them regarding the end times and why it would seem so far off -- because God is not willing that any should perish. The verse does not say "any of you" or "any of the chosen" or "any of His" or "any of the elect." It says, simply, "anyone."

Of course all the letters are written to believers and churches! Does that mean that what they talk about in terms of the world is confined only to those people?

As for me, I have never thought it an exercise in futility to put verses into deep context. I have done so frequently in my years here on BB. I encourage you to do the same so that you can substantiate your accusation to me that I took verses out of context and so distorted their meanings.

Thank you.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Perhaps you could state how you understand these verses in light of your theology.

Again, and not speaking for Helen, I believe your response would be better served if you address how you see these verses as you have them fit into your view.

I am not sure how that is not evident. The fact that Christ’s death is sufficient for all sins for all time is not the same as saying that Christ paid for all sins for all time. For the most part, the verses you picked addressed the first issue, not the second one. Detailed explanations could be given, but I don’t feel it judicious to take the time.

Larry you cannot account for the truth of the verses you ignor.

So far as I know, no one has yet to point out a verse that I ignore. It’s not about being slick in the least. There are direct conflicts between what Helen says and Scripture. When Scripture declares unbelief to be a sin, that means it is. (And if Jesus paid for all sin, then unbelief is also paid for.) When Scripture declares that man goes to hell for sin, that means he does. No system or precommitment of belief gets to change that. We must adjust our theology around Scripture.

 

[Pastor Larry]

OK, I'll bite. What is it in the call, then? What is it that only the elect react? Mybe you're not as Calvinist as I thought.

There's nothing "in the call." It is the call that brings faith and life. God unilaterally enables men through the call so that they respond. Only the elect react because only they receive the effectual calling.

And I am probably way more Calvinist than you think. I think sometimes you are confused about what Calvinism is.

 

[Helen]

When Scripture declares unbelief to be a sin, that means it is. (And if Jesus paid for all sin, then unbelief is also paid for.) When Scripture declares that man goes to hell for sin, that means he does. No system or precommitment of belief gets to change that. We must adjust our theology around Scripture.

It's paid for, Larry. There is no insult left standing before God through eternity which justice has not taken care of. Christ was the one sacrifice for all, and all means all.

That is very different, however, from whether or not all sins are forgiven, which they most certainly are not.

 

[Pastor Larry]

So if unbelief is a sin, and all sin was paid for, then how does God remain just while sending people to hell for sins that were paid for?

I don't think your distinction between atonement and forgiveness is one that the Bible recognizes as you offer it here.

 

[Helen]

So if unbelief is a sin, and all sin was paid for, then how does God remain just while sending people to hell for sins that were paid for?

I don't think your distinction between atonement and forgiveness is one that the Bible recognizes as you offer it here.

Go back to John 3:16-19, which I quoted earlier, and note that they go to hell because of unbelief. They don't WANT Christ, they REFUSE Him. That sin is atoned for, but their will is still allowed by God. "Seek and ye shall find" cuts both ways. They sought the lie and that is what they will get, and its consequences, simply because they want it. It has nothing to do with atonement.

If atonement and forgiveness are not different, then why are we told in 1 John to confess our sins when we sin so that He can forgive us? Forgiveness was not obtained at the Cross, although the possibility for it was. Atonement, eternal justice, was accomplished there. Jesus tasted death for EVERY man. So no one HAS to go to Hell. Many, however, will choose that direction even though the other way is open to them if they want it. It is the heart's desire which makes all the difference. Downhill is easy. Uphill requires Christ.

 

[Andy T.]

It is the heart's desire which makes all the difference.

And where does that desire come from?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Go back to John 3:16-19, which I quoted earlier, and note that they go to hell because of unbelief.

Yes, I agree. And go to Rev 21:8 and Rev 20:11-15 and Rom 6:23 that tells us they go to hell for other sins as well.

They don't WANT Christ, they REFUSE Him.

Calvinism agrees.

That sin is atoned for, but their will is still allowed by God.

The sin is not atoned for. Atonement is a payment, not a possibility.

If atonement and forgiveness are not different, then why are we told in 1 John to confess our sins when we sin so that He can forgive us? Forgiveness was not obtained at the Cross, although the possibility for it was.

Forgiveness is possible because of the atonement to be sure. But it is also ensured where there is atonement. You might view is atonement taking place at a particular point with Jesus, and forgiveness taking place at confession because of atonement. But all sins that are atoned for will be forgiven. That is what atonement means.So you still have people going to hell for sins that Jesus paid for, which is an affront to the atonement of Christ and the justice of God.

 

[Helen]

Andy, God has given us the gift to choose as we will. That is because we are created in His image.

Why do we will as we do? I don't know. Why do some people want the truth and others want a lie? Sometimes I think it might have something to do with how secure they were as kids, but then a lot of very insecure young people end up turning to Christ...

The Calvinist can, and often does, back up to this position and say that God determined who would will what, but this flies in the face of the message of the entire Bible -- choose this day whom you will serve! If that free choice were not possible for all men -- a free choice EITHER way -- then the Bible is nonsensical and God a sadist. There is no way I subscribe to either of those points.

Romans 1 says all are presented with enough truth in creation itself to know God is real and to know some of His characteristics. What people do with that truth sets them on the road they will travel. People often seem to prefer the lie to feel superior, protected, or whatever. Selfishness, greed, fear....I suppose they all play into it. Why want the truth? I ask myself why I wanted the truth? I remember not wanting my child to grow up as confused as I had been in a non-Christian household. I remember being sick of the lies I had told growing up and which were all around me even when I stopped lying. I remember loving and respecting my father who demanded the truth (and who, when he died, was a Christian, by the way).

Why do we react to the world around us in the way each of us does? All of psychology and psychiatry and sociology and much theology tries to deal with that. None of them succeed. For the simple truth is that God allowed each of us something really bizarre called free will. Really and truly free. And that makes each of us finally accountable for what we do with it.

 

[Helen]

from Pastor Larry: And go to Rev 21:8 and Rev 20:11-15 and Rom 6:23 that tells us they go to hell for other sins as well.

Let's look at those verses in context, Larry.

Rev. 21:8 -- He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murders, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolatoers and all liars -- their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Who is it who drinks from the water of life? Him who overcomes; the one who is thirsty.

Who is it who goes into the fiery lake? The others, the unbelievers, and these are the things they are involved in. They would not be involved in them if they were believers.

Romans 1:28 and on explains who these people are: "Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to RETAIN the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity...."

That is why they do the things listed in your Revelation verse. Because they chose to suppress what they knew was true and chose the lie. Romans 1 is extraordinarily clear about this. Their lifestyles were the result of what they had chosen, and those lifestyles were filled with sin. But it was not because of those actual sins they were in hell, but because of the choice that led to them -- refusing God.

The judgment verses of Revelation 20:11-15 indicate that all of us will be judged according to what we have done. Believers too? Yes, and Paul makes this clear a number of times, one time being in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15: "If any man builds on this foundation [Christ] using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

However, works aside, your Revelation passage makes it very clear that if a person's name is NOT in the Book of Life, the person is condemned, regardless of works. And John 3:16-19, again, makes it extremely clear that condemnation is determined because of belief.

Your last verse is Romans 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

No one is arguing that. However, in Hebrews, again, we read: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone."

So the actual debt of death, the wages if you will, have been paid for, as Hebrews says "everyone." That means that sin cannot send you to hell. Unbelief does. This being said, the mark of the unbeliever, especially as he or she gets older, becomes more and more a lifestyle of sin, which is what is addressed by your verses in Revelation.

Again, pay attention to the full of what Jesus was telling the Jews in John 8:23-24: "But he continued, 'You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be [literally, in the Greek, 'that ego eimi' -- I am I AM], you will indeed die in your sins.'"

Thus, dying in one's sins is the result of a matter of belief in Christ.

 

[amity]

Helen, I may be a little naive on this point, but I have never heard a Calvinist deny free will. It think it is understood in a different way than a non-Calvinist might. Certainly, no one from my predestinarian faith would deny free will.

But look at the nature that is doing the willing! It seems from scripture that our will can only take us farther from God. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." I Corinthians 2:14

That is why God changes our hearts, to enable us want the things of God, which by nature we would never choose. I am not sure I agree with everything in this passage (pretty sure I don't in fact), but it illustrates the point well.

Predestination...is a formative from two Latin words, prae (before), and destinatio (a purpose, destination, determination, etc.), so to predestinate is formed of prae and destino, of like import. Hence to predestinate is to purpose, to determine beforehand. So the Greek word rendered to predestinate, signifies to define, to bound, to determine, etc., beforehand. Hence predestination is a counseling, purposing or determining beforehand. And these words, as is well known, relate to the conclusion a person arrives at relative to his own future management, rather than to a rule to be observed by others. Thus men predestinate, not absolutely, at least not with certainty, for whilst all is certainty with God, time and chance happeneth to all men. A man predestinates to build a house; he predestinates the size, the form, the kind of materials, the class of workmen he will employ, etc., and if he knew, as God knows, he would predestinate the exact time and expense it should take; and this predestination is to govern his own arrangements in contracting for, and ordering the building, etc.So God’s predestination is that according to which He governs the world; and conducts all things relative to salvation and glory. It extends with the utmost precision to every event that occurs under His dominion, even to the fall of a sparrow, and to the hairs of our head, and to the small dust of the balance; for nations are counted as the small dust of the balance by Him; and His infinitude extends as directly to the notice of the one as the other, Matthew 10:29-30; Isaiah 40:15. So the term predestination is evidently used in the New Testament; as in Romans 8:29, "He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son". This is not given as a rule to which the elect must conform themselves, but a declaration of what God, by His grace, will do with, and for them. And so in Ephesians 1:5. Thus, while God’s decree forbade Adam’s eating of the tree of knowledge, He predestinated his eating of it; that is, God foreknowing with certainty that Adam, if left to encounter the temptation in his own creaturely weakness, would sin, predestinated so to leave him to meet the temptation, and to permit the temptation to be presented to him. So every sin which God permits to take place in the world, from the greatest to the least, from the crucifying of Christ to the parting of His garments among the soldiers, God predestinated its taking place and its working for the greater good. Acts 2:23, and 4:27-28; and Psalm 22:18, compared with Matthew 27:35. This predestination is not a constraining the will of the individuals, but a leaving them to act it out under the attending circumstances. Thus God works all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11), permitting sin to transpire where He sees it for good, and restraining it in other cases; and constraining by His providence, or grace, to acts of goodness, etc. - Elder Samuel Trott, 1845