Cured

[GordonSlocum]

Only if one changes the meanings of words to suit his theology.

For example, if one has been repeatedly reminded that "saved" and "regenerated" are not equivalent, and that one continues to base his arguments on equivalence between "saved" and "regenerated", then that one is bound to find all sorts of things in the Bible that are not really there.

In other words you are saying regeneration is not salvation? How Odd. I have yet to this day been able to find any verse that states that. What you are saying is that you know of a verse in the NT that teaches that regeneration is different from salvation. Which Book or letter - Chapter and verse Please.

 

[russell55]

In other words you are saying regeneration is not salvation? How Odd. I have yet to this day been able to find any verse that states that. What you are saying is that you know of a verse in the NT that teaches that regeneration is different from salvation. Which Book or letter - Chapter and verse Please.

He said regeneration is not exactly the same thing as salvation. Are they related? Yes. The same? No. Scripture? How about Titus 3:5-7?

. . . he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

We are saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. Regeneration is part of the process of being saved, but it isn't the whole of it. In these verses, you'll notice that, for one, justification is necessary for salvation, too.

How about 1 Peter 1:3-5?

According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are born again and guarded through faith for salvation. Being born again (or being regenerated) is part of the process of being saved, but it isn't the whole of it. In this verse, being kept by God through faith is also necessary for salvation.

 

[Allan]

We are born again and guarded through faith for salvation. Being born again (or being regenerated) is part of the process of being saved, but it isn't the whole of it. In this verse, being kept by God through faith is also necessary for salvation.

Really? Please show me where 'regeneration' is EVER equated with a person who is not ALREADY 'IN' the Faith (or saved) Regeneration IS Born-Again and both are terms synonymous with salvation. (just as light and life are synonymous terms with Jesus)

Regeneration is never equated (in scripture at least) to the aspect of one NOT YET saved. That is a concept perpetuated by a theological Idea which has NO basis in or of the scriptures. It is an assumed 'logical' and not scriptural process. Look all the two times regeneration occurs in scripture and THEN look at its context.

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
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Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tts 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

The first refers to the redeemed.
The second ESTABLISHES the finished work of salvation in a persons life (saved - past tense) by the consistant and continuous (-ing - active present tense) cleansing and renewing aspects of the Holy Spirit.
The one who seals them unto the day of redemption which is a phrase that also refers to salvation.

 

[GordonSlocum]

He said regeneration is not exactly the same thing as salvation. Are they related? Yes. The same? No. Scripture? How about Titus 3:5-7?


We are saved by the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit. Regeneration is part of the process of being saved, but it isn't the whole of it. In these verses, you'll notice that, for one, justification is necessary for salvation, too.

How about 1 Peter 1:3-5?


We are born again and guarded through faith for salvation. Being born again (or being regenerated) is part of the process of being saved, but it isn't the whole of it. In this verse, being kept by God through faith is also necessary for salvation.

Matthew 19:28 and Titus 3:5

Matthew speaks of the resurrection

Titus tells us that Grace Justifies and that the Holy Spirit works this new nature in us and describes it as “washing of regeneration and renewal.

Salvation is instantaneous. All these words are to help us understand in human terms the work of God in conversion.

Man believes and is (saved, regenerated, positionally sanctified, justified, positionally glorified, sealed, a new creature, etc all at once) It is really only “two things” explained it various terms,

Man’s side (faith, believe, trust, obey) God’s side following mans side ( all the rest).

 

[Jarthur001]

Just believe what the Bible Teaches

Lets say this is true...

Lets say that salvation is based on a condition.

In your case you say "just believe what the Bible teaches"....
You also added in your little CURED thingy that repent is part of the condition.

Repent is to go another way. Change from the path of death, to the path of life.

Where in falls the problem. If salvation is based on a condition of if that condition changes, then you lose your slavation. If I stop believeing...am I still saved?

Peter denied Christ...turned from his condition...is he in heaven?

Thanks God for grace and not works That I have done

 

[webdog]

If I stop believeing...am I still saved?

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself.

 

[whatever]

Are you saying one can be saved...and not regenerated, or regenerated and not saved?

No, I am saying that being regenerated has a specific meaning and is a specific part of being saved, and it is not the whole of being saved.

Perhaps this simulated conversation will help illustrate what I mean:

Me: A person is regenerated, and then she repents and believes and is saved.

GS: Notice that those who believe were saved not those that were saved believed. Therefore regeneration always follows Faith.
​

Do you see why it is hard to take this kind of argument seriously? We affirm that a person must repent and believe to be saved, but that has nothing to do with whether regeneration precedes or follows faith, much less with whether salvation is "conditional".

 

[whatever]

In other words you are saying regeneration is not salvation? How Odd. I have yet to this day been able to find any verse that states that. What you are saying is that you know of a verse in the NT that teaches that regeneration is different from salvation. Which Book or letter - Chapter and verse Please.

Of course I have not said what you charge. Let me try again. Salvation encompasses a number of components - calling, regeneration, belief, repentance, justification, sanctification and more. It is improper to speak of any of those things as if it were the whole of salvation, yet your argument is based on equating regeneration with the whole of salvation. To say it another way, salvation encompasses more than regeneration, but salvation is not less than regeneration. To say it another way, ye must be born again, but that is not all that ye must be.

 

[Jarthur001]

2Ti 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful-- for he cannot deny himself.

Now your giving the idea salvation is not based on a condition of man....but on the power and faithfulness of God.

So which is it?

Gods power?
Mans condition?

 

[GordonSlocum]

Good Morning Everyone

Let me see!!!!!

In a NUT SHELL - Is that possible? I'll try.

God has enlightened everyone that comes into the world

Sinner man hears the Gospel

Sinner man is convicted by the Holy Spirit of his state

Sinner man scratches his head and does one of two things believes or disbelieves

Sinner man, the one in this illustration, believes the message, agrees with God that he is a sinner man, and now ask Jesus to save him (Lord I agree with you, I am lost, a sinner man, I am what you say I am, HELP, SAVE ME FROM MY STATE.

Sinner man may not say the exact words but the heart, mind, and soul of the sinner man repents and believes. Most Sinner men don't know the exact words to say, but God knows the heart.

Sinner man agrees, believes, and surrenders (man's part - obeys the gospel)

Sinner man is (regenerated, saved, positional sanctified, a new creation, justified, positional glorified, in Christ, called elect, called, appointed - sealed, and protected)

There you have it simple - not frills or twist or philosophy or trash - just the truth.

1 Timothy 2

1. First of all, then, I urge that entreaties {and} prayers, petitions {and} thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
2. for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.

Oh, but why pray? Because it is God's "WILL" - that is correct - "WILL" God's desires are his "WILL". What is God's will (1) that we pray for the lost to be saved; and (2) His Will is that they be saved because He desires it. I am Glad My Heavenly Father Is not a TULIP or any flavor of Calvinist. Oh, What a Savior,

Inthe case of Oh What A Savior I am raising my voice to heaven and in this case it is intended to be Loud Worshipful Cries Toward Glory To the Father

3. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

5. For there is one God, {and} one mediator also between God and men, {the} man Christ Jesus,
6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time. 7. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying) as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

I hope everyone has a wonderful day with family and weekend activities. This is the Day The Lord Has Made ReJoice And Be Glad In It.

 

[whatever]

GS,

One big problem - Paul said that when we were dead God made us alive, which (he says) proves that it is by grace that we are saved, since our faith is a response to regeneration (which is "being made alive"). You've got some dead men hearing, agreeing, believing and surrendering, to which God responds by saving them, and other dead men remaining dead because they choose to. As Paul might say, "where's the grace?"

 

[webdog]

Now your giving the idea salvation is not based on a condition of man....but on the power and faithfulness of God.

So which is it?

Gods power?
Mans condition?

Once born, can you ever become unborn?
Conditional salvation (saved BY grace THROUGH faith) is not the same thing as eternal security. Once we are saved by grace through faith, we are born again spiritually, never to be spiritually unborn.

 

[webdog]

GS,

One big problem - Paul said that when we were dead God made us alive, which (he says) proves that it is by grace that we are saved, since our faith is a response to regeneration (which is "being made alive"). You've got some dead men hearing, agreeing, believing and surrendering, to which God responds by saving them, and other dead men remaining dead because they choose to. As Paul might say, "where's the grace?"

From what I understand, this is not classic calvinism. Pastor Larry keeps telling me that when I debate what you put forth, I don't "know" what calvinism teaches. He claims calvinism doesn't teach regeneration prior to faith in Christ. So what do you call what you believe if it's not calvinism? Pastor Larry...you out there?

 

[whatever]

It's more nuanced than that - regeneration is prior logically, while chronologically it is normally simultaneous. Maybe PL will see this and reply, and maybe he has something different in mind. But in any case I think Calvinists would agree that regeneration certainly does not follow belief and repentance, in any sense.

 

[webdog]

It's more nuanced than that - regeneration is prior logically, while chronologically it is normally simultaneous. Maybe PL will see this and reply, and maybe he has something different in mind. But in any case I think Calvinists would agree that regeneration certainly does not follow belief and repentance, in any sense.

If a logical conclusion cannot be backed Scripturally, it's illogical.

Here's what PL told me:

You have to make a distinction between what Calvinism believes and what some Calvinists may believe. There are certain things that are of the sine qua non of Calvinism. There are certai things about which some Calvinists may differ. What I am referring to is when you make false statements about what Calvinism teaches or holds and fail to not that what you are addressing is what some Calvinists believe.

So if he has told me that regeneration follows faith, or is simultaneous with faith, what "brand" do you hold to?

 

[russell55]

Really? Please show me where 'regeneration' is EVER equated with a person who is not ALREADY 'IN' the Faith (or saved)

A person who has been regenerated believes. Regeneration and faith are inseparably linked. Thye just aren't exactly the same thing.

Regeneration IS Born-Again and both are terms synonymous with salvation. (just as light and life are synonymous terms with Jesus)

If they are synonymous then you ought to be able to exchange them in a passage and have everything still make perfect sense. Let's take that passage from 1 Peter I quoted. I'll substitute being born again for salvation.

". . .he has caused us to be born again to a living hope . . . you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for [being born again] ready to be revealed in the last time. "

It doesn't work, does it? They are not exact synonyms, at least not in the way Peter is using them here.

Regeneration is never equated (in scripture at least) to the aspect of one NOT YET saved.

Of course not, because it's part of being saved.

Look all the two times regeneration occurs in scripture and THEN look at its context.

But you yourself just said it's equivalent to being born again, so we have a lot more places to look at than just the places where the word regeneration is used. And in the one place it is used in regards to people, it says we are saved by the washing of regeneration, which means they are not exact synonyms. If the washing of regeneration is one of the things we are saved by, then it is not an exact synonym for salvation.

The second

ESTABLISHES the finished work of salvation in a persons life (saved - past tense) by the consistant and continuous (-ing - active present tense) cleansing and renewing aspects of the Holy Spirit.

And you have just proved that they are not synomyms, even in your system. You, too, in what you just wrote, have regeneration as one aspect of salvation.

The one who seals them unto the day of redemption which is a phrase that also refers to salvation.

Yes, it refers to salvation, but it's not exactly synonymous with salvation. It's necessary to be sealed in order to be saved, but it is also necessary to be justified in order to be saved. It's necessary to have faith in order to be saved. It's nessessary to be born again in order to be saved. Those are all different aspects of being saved. If you have one of those things, then we know you have the rest, but at the same time, they aren't the same thing, exactly.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Of course I have not said what you charge. Let me try again. Salvation encompasses a number of components - calling, regeneration, belief, repentance, justification, sanctification and more. It is improper to speak of any of those things as if it were the whole of salvation, yet your argument is based on equating regeneration with the whole of salvation. To say it another way, salvation encompasses more than regeneration, but salvation is not less than regeneration. To say it another way, ye must be born again, but that is not all that ye must be.

It may be that we are saying the same thing.

Two points

Faith and Repentance

results in (at the same time)

all the rest (regeneration i.e. salvation i.e. conversion i.e. new birth i.e. a new creature in Christ i.e. justification i.e. positional sanctification i.e. adoption etc.)

 

[GordonSlocum]

30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
The Jailer Converted
31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

If saved is the same as regeneration and it is then it follows Believe in the Lord Jesus.

 

[Pastor Larry]

From what I understand, this is not classic calvinism. Pastor Larry keeps telling me that when I debate what you put forth, I don't "know" what calvinism teaches. He claims calvinism doesn't teach regeneration prior to faith in Christ. So what do you call what you believe if it's not calvinism? Pastor Larry...you out there?

Here. Ignoring this conversation for the most part because it is rehash of old stuff, long answered.

The typical Calvinist position is that regeneration precedes faith. That, however, it not necessary to be a Calvinist. A Calvinist holds that there is a unilateral, sovereign, effectual work of God on the unbeliever that certainly and necessarily brings him to faith and repentance. Most calls that regeneration. I call it the effectual call.

Regeneration prior to faith is not a sine qua non of Calvinism, though it is what some Calvinists believe. The sine qua non is the unilateral, sovereign, effectual work of God on the unbeliever. What that work is called (whether regeneration or effectual call) is not the point. The point is that it exists.

I do not believe regeneration precedes faith for the following reasons: 1) regeneration is life, and 2) life, in Scripture, is said to be the result of faith and repentance (John 20:31; Acts 11:17-18; etc.)

The difference between myself, Russell55, JArthur, and others on this point is one of semantics: What do we call that work? It is not one of substance. We agree that a unilateral, sovereign, effectual work must take place.

I am a Calvinist because I recognize that the Bible teaches that man will never come to God on his own, but when God calls a man to salvation, He does a unilateral, internal work of illumination and enabling that certainly leads to faith and repentance. Such work is done only for the elect; it is not a universal work.

 

[Pastor Larry]

30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
The Jailer Converted
31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

This is a great Calvinistic verse. It is at the heart of Calvinism. God has awakened a man's understanding and caused him to respond in belief for salvation.