Tom Butler said:
No matter how you slice it, if election is based on foreknowledge, then believers elect themselves, and God is powerless to do otherwise.
Gordon Slocum said:
On the contrary, it is foreknowledge as you define it which ties God's hands.
Well How About That.
In your view then, Christ, can not be slain from the foundation of the world. I don't say it I know it.
The Bible is clear that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Adam had not been created. The both of us were much further down the line form Adam, and God tells us in space and time that Christ was slain form the foundation of the world an expression that means before creation.
Why you would deny that, as they say around here, "beats me". In your view you would have to eliminate all prophetic passages from Genesis to Revelation. That would mean you would rip out in the "neighbor hood" 1/3 of the Scripture. That would border on a violation of Scripture to remove it from the Bible.
Also, to take your position is to deny God or teach that God does not have absolute knowledge, and to deny that God can know all the actuals as well as the possibilities of decisions that are or would have been and that are or might have been in the future.
Now, what I am going to say I say it with convection and not in anger. Your view makes God a puppet master, and dictator who violates His own will – thus destroying His Holiness and dethroning God. For me to take such a position as Calvinism would be to deny truth and violate God and His Holiness. I can’t do that.
The only way to properly understand Election, Prophecy, or any statement in God's world - is form the stand point of God's Absolute Knowledge - (to us foreknowledge, foresight, pre-science).
You and I both know that you can not combat, in an intellectually honest manner that my position is incorrect. Why? Because logically, sensibly, and factually from Scripture my position is as solid as my Heavenly Father.
Any suggestion that hints that God is limited by man's theology, in this case Calvinism, just does not cut the mustard.
We know that God's will desires all men to be saved. We know that if God's wills something He has the perfect right to do so as long as it does not violate His Holiness. But God would not will something that violates His Holiness. So if a perfect God's will is the desire of all mankind to be saved and He violates that desire by only saving some of the all then He violates His Holiness. So, we stand on the truth that is taught in the Bible concerning God's Absolute Knowledge which is referred to as Foreknowledge.
We know that God’s will which is His desire that all be saved comes form His Love. But how do you solve the problem that some are not saved when God desires all to be saved? The only way is the Bible way. God presents man with the facts and man must decide on them.
No sane conservative Christian will deny that man is dead in sins and trespasses (dead is not cessation of the image of God in man. That is not the determining factor. These people, of which we are a part of the lot, are created in God's image and we are still capable of deciding or accepting God's message in our present state. We know that The Light enlightens all men that come into the world. We know that in each dispensation man is required to believe in the revelation they have.
Example Lydia was an OT believer and transitions to a NT believer (Acts 16 if my memory serves me correctly). Before the law we are told men began to call on the Lord. We are not told everything in Scripture. We are told extensively about Israel, and the Church. We know today that after the first advent no on can be saved outside of confessing Christ.
I am not going to tie God's hands by taking a "wooden literal" interpretation of Passages that Calvinist force on the text. The Bible is written in normal literal form.
God's Absolute Knowledge takes into account all possible and actual that has existed, is in existence and will exist. Nothing catches God off guard. Man is free with in his limited abilities and environment and image of God he is created in. The same faith that we are inherently born with is the same God give' "in the image of God" capability to decide upon information and weather we want to trust it or not.
One can have faith in man’s wisdom and I sincerely believe Calvinism is in this camp. I Cor 2:5 "That your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."
By the way this “faith” that is exercised in the “wisdom of men” is the same faith that can be exercised in the power of God unto salvation.
Let me say one last thing. I personally respect all who disagree with me, but I don't ask you to believe like I do and I expect you to defend your view. I hope that in the process of our firm convection (both sides) you will respect me as well.
I know you see my view as false doctrine. Know also that I see yours as false.
That is not offensive to me because while some, maybe not you, and I know my confidence come across as arrogance to some who I would say are not mature. I would hope that if you are Calvinist or other that you would understand your view in such a way that you are secure in it.
I state here with out reservation and with all the confidence a person can have or muster I am right and you are wrong in your doctrine. That is convection not arrogance. The two are different.
Now, in Christian love, can you join me for a cup of coffee? I don't see Calvinist as non-Christians only as believing false doctrine. I have had my share of Calvinist Teachers in my younger days. They were sincerely wrong but Godly Believers. I honor them for that in spite of their error in doctrine.
One of my professors was so dogmatic on Calvinism that the only ones in his very small church were those who only wanted to hear the term Calvin and talk about Calvin. Others were not so fanatical and some where not Calvinist.
