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Dallas Theological Seminary Makes A Horrible Choice!
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
GB,
Spill it...what do you know and how do you know it? If you have no actual accusation or evidence, perhaps you should cease your defamation and gossip.
Joseph Botwinick
Spill it...what do you know and how do you know it? If you have no actual accusation or evidence, perhaps you should cease your defamation and gossip.
Joseph Botwinick
It is fact not gossip. Read it for yourself. So your accusation is unfounded. Don't accuse someone before you know the facts.
Obviously, you have never been involved in the leadership of a large organization.
I am surprised that you do not keep up with what is happening in Baptist life.
I'll start off with three examples which are very obvious. Very obvious around the time of Dr. Dilday for one. The lies abounded and not one in SBC leadrship took a stance against the liars (trustees of the seminary). It was all over the local papers and news media at the time. Don't you remember when Dilday was offered hush money and refused their offer? Don't you remember the time when Dilday was given a promotion one day and fired the next? Where was the integrity of the trustees? Some of the liars are still involved in SBC leadership. What ever happened to the news about that. Covered up?
http://www.mainstreambaptistnetwork.org/MBN%20Journals/jan2002/demotion.htm
Sometime ask about the former trustee at SWBTS who was found shacking up with two ladies in his church. What ever happened to the news about that. Covered up?
Ever read about the BFA in Arizona in 1999? It was on the national news. What did the SBC do to right the wrong? What ever happened to the news about that. Covered up?
http://www.rickross.com/groups/bfa.html
Baptist Foundation Case Believed to be Largest Affinity Fraud Case in U.S. History
http://www.ccsd.cc.state.az.us/News_Releases/2001/May-07-2001.pdf
http://www.azag.gov/victims_rights/BFA/bfa.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/9tc/9tc018.html
http://www.cephas-library.com/baptists/s_baptists_financial_collapse.html
Maybe I am unaware but has the leopard (SBC) changed its spots recently?
Remember what you see on the top of an iceberg is a small portion of what lies beneath.
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
I'm sorry, GB, but somehow I thought you were making reference to something that had something to do with this thread and was on topic...you know, something about covering up child molestor that they sent out as ministers to local congregations? I didn't realize that you only wanted to use this thread as a personal, bitter rant against the overthrow of the liberal heretics...although, I agree that the way Dilday was fired was wrong...I am glad he is no longer there. Perhaps, you might want to start another thread about the firing of Dilday in which I might even partially agree with you...if I hadn't gotten over it and moved on with my life from something that happened 10 years ago.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick
Convicted by the Spirit
New Member
A very respected professor at my school recently was found to be having an affair. Did the school cover it up ...no! Did they blast the news everywhere? No! They handled the problem with respect and Godly character and dismissed him with as little attention as possible. Would you want your sins put on the front page of the paper for all to see, I would hope not. It is possible that SWBTS did cover this up, but it is also possible that they just did not want to drag these people throught the mud while hanging him at the same time.
Every seminary has something in their past that doesn't represent itself or Christ awfully well.
Even ole LU has tons of skeletons in their closet.
Maybe a measure of grace should be considered before judgment from afar is rendered. Just a thought.
Even ole LU has tons of skeletons in their closet.
Maybe a measure of grace should be considered before judgment from afar is rendered. Just a thought.
Grace, Grace, Grace.
In my tradition, what needs to happen next for DTS, if DTS were a person, is for DTS to get "saved" again. DTS wasn't "really" saved the first time! Then all could be forgiven, because, after all, DTS wasn't really saved when these atrocious things took place. But thankfully, DTS is "saved" now and we can all go on joyfully singing about God's life-changing grace!
In my tradition, what needs to happen next for DTS, if DTS were a person, is for DTS to get "saved" again. DTS wasn't "really" saved the first time! Then all could be forgiven, because, after all, DTS wasn't really saved when these atrocious things took place. But thankfully, DTS is "saved" now and we can all go on joyfully singing about God's life-changing grace!
paidagogos
Active Member
I choose not to reply to a specific post because it would single out and tag individuals with the straightforward language that I am going to use. Furthermore, it would be perceived as a personal attack and the person would probably reply in emotion and hast without considering the valid objections that I raise. However, some will know that I am referring to them. I say, “If the shoe fits, wear it!”
Personally, I am no big fan of DTS. However, there are a number of self-righteous ignoramuses who are ranting and raving about something they know little about and understand even less. There are more issues in this matter than are readily apparent from the news for public consumption.
Firstly, we do not know how much DTS knew or could prove about their perverted student’s behavior. For DTS to release unsubstantiated information about a student or former student carries great legal liability. Have you heard of libel and slander? These are actionable acts. Unless one has provable evidence, one had better keep his mouth shut about another’s sexual behavior. Did DTS have evidence amounting to proof? Did anyone witness this pervert molesting little boys? I know it was revealed later but you must judge every action or lack of action in context of time and knowledge. Hindsight is always twenty-twenty.
Furthermore, certain counseling information is confidential. Unauthorized release of confidential counseling information is also actionable. Remember Daniel Ellensburg? Also, Dallas is right in that a person can change. If God cannot change a life, then what are we all about? Do you give a person a second chance? Are our sins to be hung around like an albatross our necks forever?
Secondly, there are new and unproven theories of liability here. Who can say a seminary is to blame for the behavior of its adult students? Every school or family may have its black sheep. If a student or alumnus goes bad, can you hold responsible the seminary for recommending the student if it was done in good faith at the time? This is the same exploding and expanding theory of liability that we have seen in the last decade of court cases. Whereas there must be responsibility and accountability, the aggressive theoretical expansion of liability has put all of us under the gun. Can you blame the pastor when his church member molests a child? Perhaps the pastor has been counseling the church member in good faith. Where does his responsibility for confidentiality end in the counseling process? Who is to draw the fine line? Can he be held responsible for anticipating what another may do? Where does the blame stop?
Thirdly, there are charges of cover-up without the presentation of evidence for a cover-up. This is despicable from a Christian standpoint. Such charges come those who presume without proof or evidence. It is the modern mindset to assume wrongdoing whenever we don’t know the whole story. I doubt that anyone on this thread has firsthand, intimate, personal knowledge of the situation. If not, we are playing prosecutor, judge and jury on hearsay. I hope that such self-righteous, bigoted Pharisees, who are guilty biased judgment, will be ashamed and embarrassed when they read this.
Perhaps, we ought to go back and read “Thou shalt not bear false witness” in a new light. This is not as much about lying as much as false accusations. I have a word of advice for all ranters, ravers, false accusers, and self-righteous Pharisees: REPENT!
I anticipate the intense flaming from this post. It will be, no doubt, from the worst offenders. So, if you don’t want to be identified and embarrassed, keep a low profile. In a dogfight, the bitten dog is always the one who howls.
Personally, I am no big fan of DTS. However, there are a number of self-righteous ignoramuses who are ranting and raving about something they know little about and understand even less. There are more issues in this matter than are readily apparent from the news for public consumption.
Firstly, we do not know how much DTS knew or could prove about their perverted student’s behavior. For DTS to release unsubstantiated information about a student or former student carries great legal liability. Have you heard of libel and slander? These are actionable acts. Unless one has provable evidence, one had better keep his mouth shut about another’s sexual behavior. Did DTS have evidence amounting to proof? Did anyone witness this pervert molesting little boys? I know it was revealed later but you must judge every action or lack of action in context of time and knowledge. Hindsight is always twenty-twenty.
Furthermore, certain counseling information is confidential. Unauthorized release of confidential counseling information is also actionable. Remember Daniel Ellensburg? Also, Dallas is right in that a person can change. If God cannot change a life, then what are we all about? Do you give a person a second chance? Are our sins to be hung around like an albatross our necks forever?
Secondly, there are new and unproven theories of liability here. Who can say a seminary is to blame for the behavior of its adult students? Every school or family may have its black sheep. If a student or alumnus goes bad, can you hold responsible the seminary for recommending the student if it was done in good faith at the time? This is the same exploding and expanding theory of liability that we have seen in the last decade of court cases. Whereas there must be responsibility and accountability, the aggressive theoretical expansion of liability has put all of us under the gun. Can you blame the pastor when his church member molests a child? Perhaps the pastor has been counseling the church member in good faith. Where does his responsibility for confidentiality end in the counseling process? Who is to draw the fine line? Can he be held responsible for anticipating what another may do? Where does the blame stop?
Thirdly, there are charges of cover-up without the presentation of evidence for a cover-up. This is despicable from a Christian standpoint. Such charges come those who presume without proof or evidence. It is the modern mindset to assume wrongdoing whenever we don’t know the whole story. I doubt that anyone on this thread has firsthand, intimate, personal knowledge of the situation. If not, we are playing prosecutor, judge and jury on hearsay. I hope that such self-righteous, bigoted Pharisees, who are guilty biased judgment, will be ashamed and embarrassed when they read this.
Perhaps, we ought to go back and read “Thou shalt not bear false witness” in a new light. This is not as much about lying as much as false accusations. I have a word of advice for all ranters, ravers, false accusers, and self-righteous Pharisees: REPENT!
I anticipate the intense flaming from this post. It will be, no doubt, from the worst offenders. So, if you don’t want to be identified and embarrassed, keep a low profile. In a dogfight, the bitten dog is always the one who howls.
paidagogos
Thank you for bringing some Spiritual maturity to the thread. I have heard that an attack from the Evil One is a sign that a person, or organization in the case of DTS, is having meaningful impact for God. Prior to your post, I imagine the Evil One was looking on and thinking this incident was serving his purpose swimmingly. My plea is that we be in Spirit-filled prayer for DTS in this time of distress.
“And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.” (Ephesians 6.18)
Thank you for bringing some Spiritual maturity to the thread. I have heard that an attack from the Evil One is a sign that a person, or organization in the case of DTS, is having meaningful impact for God. Prior to your post, I imagine the Evil One was looking on and thinking this incident was serving his purpose swimmingly. My plea is that we be in Spirit-filled prayer for DTS in this time of distress.
“And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.” (Ephesians 6.18)
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
It sounds like there was an admission of guilt of moletation somewhere in there. I'm suprised that the police weren't brought in.
I believe the counsellors are bound by doctor-patient confidentiality.
Assume you were in charge at DTS. How would you handle it if your student admitted to child molestation and repented?
Playing the hypothetical in my mind, I would have the student:
1) confess to the victim and victim's family of wrongdoing
2) confess to his own family the wrongdoing
3) find a way to give retribution and reconciliation for the wrongs
4) ensure that his community is supporting him and keeping him accountable
5) seek counselling
6) report himself to the police
Anything else I'm missing?
I'm curious about something. If an engineering student gets kicked out of engineering school for, say, drunken rowdiness, and later is readmitted, and later is fired from an engineering firm for being drunk on the job, is it the school's fault? Should the school have the obligation to notify the place that hired him that he was kicked out for drunken rowdiness?
Don't get me wrong, what this guy did was ridiculous. Sure, the school was stupid to readmit him, but where is there an obligation for them to notify his current employer about such things?
Don't get me wrong, what this guy did was ridiculous. Sure, the school was stupid to readmit him, but where is there an obligation for them to notify his current employer about such things?
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
John,
Apples and oranges. Nobody got molested in your example. And, an engineer doesn't have a moral obligation from the Bible...a minister does. Read it sometime. I think you'll see what I am talking about.
Joseph Botwinick
Apples and oranges. Nobody got molested in your example. And, an engineer doesn't have a moral obligation from the Bible...a minister does. Read it sometime. I think you'll see what I am talking about.
Joseph Botwinick
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Exactly!
It seems that DTS, as well as many other institutions of higher learning, have fallen into the trap of "if you got money to pay for our classes, then we will let you in."
The problem is that there was no criminal pursuit in regards to his first expulsion. So it becomes a he said-she said issue. That is why I insist that victims of child abuse seek incarceration of their perpetrators. Their crime then becomes a matter of public record.
If in the engineering school case, the student molested a child, would the school then be required to disclose that to an employer, especially where there is no criminal record?
Joseph_Botwinick
<img src=/532.jpg>Banned
Yes. They have a moral obligation, IMO.
Joseph Botwinick
Joseph Botwinick