Dancing, Gambling, and Drinking

[saturneptune]

Does anyone ever wonder how these three activities over our Baptist history have become a focal point? This is all I have heard talked about since becoming a Baptist in 1977. Any reasonable and sane person that has studied Scripture can come to the conclusion that two of these activities are not sins, and the third one is a sin when done to excess.

Yet, we know several facts from studying the Bible. We know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We know that there is not one righteous, no not one. We know that if we break one command of the Lord, as James tells us, that we have broken all. We also know that every male has committed adultery according to Matthew, by our lustful thoughts. We also know some are guilty of murder by prolonged hatred in their heart towards another.

We ignore gossip, even within the church. We glorify gluttony at pot lucks. Murder sits at our door step.

So, given all that, how on earth did we ever learn to focus on activities that are not even sin and ignore or give a pass to others? Where is history did we come up with these ideas?

A Christian lives by the power of the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ daily. We do not memorize rules that are not even sins and try to obey them in our own power.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Does anyone ever wonder how these three activities over our Baptist history have become a focal point? This is all I have heard talked about since becoming a Baptist in 1977. Any reasonable and sane person that has studied Scripture can come to the conclusion that two of these activities are not sins, and the third one is a sin when done to excess.

Yet, we know several facts from studying the Bible. We know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We know that there is not one righteous, no not one. We know that if we break one command of the Lord, as James tells us, that we have broken all. We also know that every male has committed adultery according to Matthew, by our lustful thoughts. We also know some are guilty of murder by prolonged hatred in their heart towards another.

We ignore gossip, even within the church. We glorify gluttony at pot lucks. Murder sits at our door step.

So, given all that, how on earth did we ever learn to focus on activities that are not even sin and ignore or give a pass to others? Where is history did we come up with these ideas?

A Christian lives by the power of the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ daily. We do not memorize rules that are not even sins and try to obey them in our own power.

Are you also against slander and backbiting and bearing false witness?

 

[Yeshua1]

Does anyone ever wonder how these three activities over our Baptist history have become a focal point? This is all I have heard talked about since becoming a Baptist in 1977. Any reasonable and sane person that has studied Scripture can come to the conclusion that two of these activities are not sins, and the third one is a sin when done to excess.

Yet, we know several facts from studying the Bible. We know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We know that there is not one righteous, no not one. We know that if we break one command of the Lord, as James tells us, that we have broken all. We also know that every male has committed adultery according to Matthew, by our lustful thoughts. We also know some are guilty of murder by prolonged hatred in their heart towards another.

We ignore gossip, even within the church. We glorify gluttony at pot lucks. Murder sits at our door step.

So, given all that, how on earth did we ever learn to focus on activities that are not even sin and ignore or give a pass to others? Where is history did we come up with these ideas?

A Christian lives by the power of the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ daily. We do not memorize rules that are not even sins and try to obey them in our own power.

of those 3 listed, think drinking is tjh prominent mentioned one, and christians are either teetotaler, or else drink within moderation on it!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Does anyone ever wonder how these three activities over our Baptist history have become a focal point? This is all I have heard talked about since becoming a Baptist in 1977. Any reasonable and sane person that has studied Scripture can come to the conclusion that two of these activities are not sins, and the third one is a sin when done to excess.

I agree that drinking in moderation is not sin, and I see from research that there are health benefits to that moderation. Dancing? I haven't heard anyone in a Baptist church condemn dancing since I became a Christian -- in a Baptist church -- nearly 21 years ago. I've never, iin fact, heard anyone speak against dancing as "sin" except in third-party stories and the movie "Footloose."

However, if you're going to try and condone gambling as "not sinful" you're barking up the wrong tree with me. As you have seen me speak of repeatedly, gambling was my downfall, and regardless of what level of gambling activity one engages in, it is sin at any level.

Colossians 3, (NASB)
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.​

OK, so how does that relate to gambling? Because gambling is nothing more than greed disguised as "entertainment." Even those who say, "I can go to the casino with $20, lose it and be happy without having to 'chase it' " are either idiots, or lying. Why would you willingly throw away $20? And there are quicker, more effective ways to do it than gambling. If that's "entertainment," then roll down your car window on the freeway, take a $20 bill, and throw it out. At least that way, you can imagine someone who needs $20 finding it. The casino doesn't need your $20.

There are two things to consider here. One, gambling is inconsistent with biblical virtue. It is fueled by -- and it fuels -- covetousness, greed, and materialism. It is associated with crime, vice and corruption, so that wherever gambling exists, crime rates rise, "real" jobs disappear, and families deteriorate. It is contrary to the biblical work ethic, because it is an attempt to gain wealth without working for it. Again, one can say, "Oh, I just go for the entertainment." Yeah, right. And tell me what happens if that $20 increases instead of disappears? Do you still leave the table when you start to lose? Or is the "increase" too much fun?

Secondly, our possessions are not our own to squander. They are given to us as a stewardship, and we will be accountable to God for how we use them. To put God-given resources at risk is to fail in the faithfulness required of stewards. Even if you win, your are takiing someone else's money. No, not the casino's money. You're taking the money of someone else at that table or game. If it's a slot machine, someone else lost all that money you're "winning." If its a card game or other skill or chance game, people at that table are financing your "win." Can they afford it? They might look like they can, but many of them can't. Last year, in Las Vegas, a fairly well-known gambler killed himself trying to recoup the losses he suffered when online poker was shut down in the U.S. three years ago. Gambling kills people every day, at their own hands, because they can't live with losing, and losing costs them everything.

Yet, we know several facts from studying the Bible. We know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We know that there is not one righteous, no not one. We know that if we break one command of the Lord, as James tells us, that we have broken all. We also know that every male has committed adultery according to Matthew, by our lustful thoughts. We also know some are guilty of murder by prolonged hatred in their heart towards another.

So far, so good.

We ignore gossip, even within the church. We glorify gluttony at pot lucks. Murder sits at our door step.

When gossip actually kills 10,000 people a year, or when gluttony becomes an epidemic that costs hundreds of billions of dollars in treatment each year, maybe I'll say something, Right now, they aren't as serious as the gambling epidemic in this country.

So, given all that, how on earth did we ever learn to focus on activities that are not even sin and ignore or give a pass to others? Where is history did we come up with these ideas?

Though drinking is not a sin in moderation, it is a sin in excess, which is what you were talking about with gossip and gluttony. But as I said, neither gossip nor gluttony are costing us billions and billions a year in treatment, rehab, and prison costs. We need to be aware of how serious an issue gambling is, as well as excessive drinking, and that no one is immune to their seduction. As I've shown, I believe, any level of gambling is a sin. It cannot be condoned in the church, or among Christians.

A Christian lives by the power of the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ daily. We do not memorize rules that are not even sins and try to obey them in our own power.

But when people say, "Oh, that's not really a sin," we have opened to door for others' weaknesses to overpower them. I've been there. I've made the full circle, from disordered gambler (which is what they now call it in the DSM-5) to licensed gambling counselor. As a Christian, I can state unequivocally, it is sin at any level of engagement.

 

[saturneptune]

Are you also against slander and backbiting and bearing false witness?

John,
I am going to say publicly what I said privately the other day, and basically sent the same message to Rippon in greater detail. Things have happened lately in the lives of people I was very close to, and to make a long story short, I am done with the smart aleck remarks back and forth. Yes, I am probably guilty of all three. I am not so sure about the false witness. It depends on what you are referring to. On the subject of Paul Washer, lets leave it that we disagree about him. I did not realize you were so involved in the ministry and in no way meant to harm or demean you. It did not help when you called me a liar.

Anyway, I am done with all that, and want us two, just like I told Rippon, from this moment on, to speak as Christian brothers, and am sorry for all the names I called you in that one thread. There was no excuse for bringing your ministries or integrity into question regardless of what I think about Paul Washer.

It is time for both of us to let is go and start over. I am probably not only guilty of backbiting and slander, but probably murder, based on Matthew 5 and 6 about harboring hatred in my heart for an extended period of time. That is serious stuff, and way above slander and backbiting.

I really do not how else to express myself, but hope you will clear the slate and not only forgive, but forget.

 

[Jerome]

Has your church gotten the new Chitwood political ad they're instructing to be played in KBC sanctuaries?

http://www.kbcpublicaffairs.org/2014/01/29/chitwood-issues-call-to-action-on-gambling/

My name is Paul Chitwood, and I’m the executive director-treasurer of the Kentucky Baptist Convention. Join me in raising your voice for justice.

Call the Legislative message line at 1-800-372-7181 and urge your legislators to oppose any attempt to expand gambling in Kentucky.

 

[saturneptune]

I agree that drinking in moderation is not sin, and I see from research that there are health benefits to that moderation. Dancing? I haven't heard anyone in a Baptist church condemn dancing since I became a Christian -- in a Baptist church -- nearly 21 years ago. I've never, iin fact, heard anyone speak against dancing as "sin" except in third-party stories and the movie "Footloose."

However, if you're going to try and condone gambling as "not sinful" you're barking up the wrong tree with me. As you have seen me speak of repeatedly, gambling was my downfall, and regardless of what level of gambling activity one engages in, it is sin at any level.

Colossians 3, (NASB)
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.​

OK, so how does that relate to gambling? Because gambling is nothing more than greed disguised as "entertainment." Even those who say, "I can go to the casino with $20, lose it and be happy without having to 'chase it' " are either idiots, or lying. Why would you willingly throw away $20? And there are quicker, more effective ways to do it than gambling. If that's "entertainment," then roll down your car window on the freeway, take a $20 bill, and throw it out. At least that way, you can imagine someone who needs $20 finding it. The casino doesn't need your $20.

There are two things to consider here. One, gambling is inconsistent with biblical virtue. It is fueled by -- and it fuels -- covetousness, greed, and materialism. It is associated with crime, vice and corruption, so that wherever gambling exists, crime rates rise, "real" jobs disappear, and families deteriorate. It is contrary to the biblical work ethic, because it is an attempt to gain wealth without working for it. Again, one can say, "Oh, I just go for the entertainment." Yeah, right. And tell me what happens if that $20 increases instead of disappears? Do you still leave the table when you start to lose? Or is the "increase" too much fun?

Secondly, our possessions are not our own to squander. They are given to us as a stewardship, and we will be accountable to God for how we use them. To put God-given resources at risk is to fail in the faithfulness required of stewards. Even if you win, your are takiing someone else's money. No, not the casino's money. You're taking the money of someone else at that table or game. If it's a slot machine, someone else lost all that money you're "winning." If its a card game or other skill or chance game, people at that table are financing your "win." Can they afford it? They might look like they can, but many of them can't. Last year, in Las Vegas, a fairly well-known gambler killed himself trying to recoup the losses he suffered when online poker was shut down in the U.S. three years ago. Gambling kills people every day, at their own hands, because they can't live with losing, and losing costs them everything.So far, so good.When gossip actually kills 10,000 people a year, or when gluttony becomes an epidemic that costs hundreds of billions of dollars in treatment each year, maybe I'll say something, Right now, they aren't as serious as the gambling epidemic in this country.Though drinking is not a sin in moderation, it is a sin in excess, which is what you were talking about with gossip and gluttony. But again, neither of these sins is costing us billions and billions a year in treatment, rehab, and prison costs. We need to be aware of how serious an issue gambling is, and that no one is immune to its seduction. As I've shown, I believe, any level of gambling is a sin.But when people say, "Oh, that's not really a sin," we have opened to door for others' weaknesses to overpower them. I've been there. I've made the full circle, from disordered gambler (which is what they now call it in the DSM-5) to licensed gambling counselor. As a Christian, I can state unequivocally, it is sin at any level of engagement.

Thanks for your detailed response, and the Lord has certainly worked in your life. It to a degree is each person's experience with gambling to start. My wife and my gambling history is that once we went through Las Vegas on the way to Yellowstone. The night we stayed there, we took $20, split it, and played the slot machines for a couple of hours till it was gone. We then quit. I can see nothing wrong with that.

The drinking is wrong for me, because of the way I drank in the Navy. When one cannot remember how one got back to the ship, not a good thing, so I do not do this, because for me, it is in excess and a sin. That does not give me the right to tell someone else not to drink moderately.

Dancing, that is the most ridiculous one. I do not dance. Why? Because when I do, I look like a klutz and people laugh. There is nothing wrong with it, and I know lots of senior citizens that are single that go to a senior dance on Friday or Saturday night and have a ball.

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that drinking in moderation is not sin, and I see from research that there are health benefits to that moderation. Dancing? I haven't heard anyone in a Baptist church condemn dancing since I became a Christian -- in a Baptist church -- nearly 21 years ago. I've never, iin fact, heard anyone speak against dancing as "sin" except in third-party stories and the movie "Footloose."

However, if you're going to try and condone gambling as "not sinful" you're barking up the wrong tree with me. As you have seen me speak of repeatedly, gambling was my downfall, and regardless of what level of gambling activity one engages in, it is sin at any level.

Colossians 3, (NASB)
5 Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.​

OK, so how does that relate to gambling? Because gambling is nothing more than greed disguised as "entertainment." Even those who say, "I can go to the casino with $20, lose it and be happy without having to 'chase it' " are either idiots, or lying. Why would you willingly throw away $20? And there are quicker, more effective ways to do it than gambling. If that's "entertainment," then roll down your car window on the freeway, take a $20 bill, and throw it out. At least that way, you can imagine someone who needs $20 finding it. The casino doesn't need your $20.

There are two things to consider here. One, gambling is inconsistent with biblical virtue. It is fueled by -- and it fuels -- covetousness, greed, and materialism. It is associated with crime, vice and corruption, so that wherever gambling exists, crime rates rise, "real" jobs disappear, and families deteriorate. It is contrary to the biblical work ethic, because it is an attempt to gain wealth without working for it. Again, one can say, "Oh, I just go for the entertainment." Yeah, right. And tell me what happens if that $20 increases instead of disappears? Do you still leave the table when you start to lose? Or is the "increase" too much fun?

Secondly, our possessions are not our own to squander. They are given to us as a stewardship, and we will be accountable to God for how we use them. To put God-given resources at risk is to fail in the faithfulness required of stewards. Even if you win, your are takiing someone else's money. No, not the casino's money. You're taking the money of someone else at that table or game. If it's a slot machine, someone else lost all that money you're "winning." If its a card game or other skill or chance game, people at that table are financing your "win." Can they afford it? They might look like they can, but many of them can't. Last year, in Las Vegas, a fairly well-known gambler killed himself trying to recoup the losses he suffered when online poker was shut down in the U.S. three years ago. Gambling kills people every day, at their own hands, because they can't live with losing, and losing costs them everything.So far, so good.When gossip actually kills 10,000 people a year, or when gluttony becomes an epidemic that costs hundreds of billions of dollars in treatment each year, maybe I'll say something, Right now, they aren't as serious as the gambling epidemic in this country.Though drinking is not a sin in moderation, it is a sin in excess, which is what you were talking about with gossip and gluttony. But as I said, neither gossip nor gluttony are costing us billions and billions a year in treatment, rehab, and prison costs. We need to be aware of how serious an issue gambling is, as well as excessive drinking, and that no one is immune to their seduction. As I've shown, I believe, any level of gambling is a sin. It cannot be condoned in the church, or among Christians.But when people say, "Oh, that's not really a sin," we have opened to door for others' weaknesses to overpower them. I've been there. I've made the full circle, from disordered gambler (which is what they now call it in the DSM-5) to licensed gambling counselor. As a Christian, I can state unequivocally, it is sin at any level of engagement.

Think gambling one of those areas that when you or me or someone we know have had the "bug" to do it daily. large amounts, would realise that is pretty much like being addicted to heroin/crack, as it can destroy you and loved ones lives!

 

[saturneptune]

Think gambling one of those areas that when you or me or someone we know have had the "bug" to do it daily. large amounts, would realise that is pretty much like being addicted to heroin/crack, as it can destroy you and loved ones lives!

Good point. I have never bought a lottery ticket in my life, and the idea of gambling does not appeal to me a bit. Different people have different pet sins. I related the story of the slot machine. I know people who are addicted to shopping and credit cards. I think anything in excess to the point of putting something before the Lord or it harming your family is sin.

 

[Zaac]

Does anyone ever wonder how these three activities over our Baptist history have become a focal point? This is all I have heard talked about since becoming a Baptist in 1977. Any reasonable and sane person that has studied Scripture can come to the conclusion that two of these activities are not sins, and the third one is a sin when done to excess.

Yet, we know several facts from studying the Bible. We know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We know that there is not one righteous, no not one. We know that if we break one command of the Lord, as James tells us, that we have broken all. We also know that every male has committed adultery according to Matthew, by our lustful thoughts. We also know some are guilty of murder by prolonged hatred in their heart towards another.

We ignore gossip, even within the church. We glorify gluttony at pot lucks. Murder sits at our door step.

So, given all that, how on earth did we ever learn to focus on activities that are not even sin and ignore or give a pass to others? Where is history did we come up with these ideas?

A Christian lives by the power of the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ daily. We do not memorize rules that are not even sins and try to obey them in our own power.

It's rather sad SN. We are all about issues and seemingly don't give much of a flying rip about people's souls.

But Ive never understood why folks in the church would say something about someone spending a dollar on a lottery ticket but never say anything about spending five dollars on a beer? Or how some would look down on the addict but sit by and smoke their cigarettes.

 

[Yeshua1]

It's rather sad SN. We are all about issues and seemingly don't give much of a flying rip about people's souls.

I never understood why folks in the church would say something about someone spending a dollar on a lottery ticket but never say anything about spending five dollars on a beer? Or how some would look down on the addict but sit by and smoke their cigarettes.

maybe because buying a beer, or taking a drink, or even smoking a cig not a sin? not healthy things to do, but not actual sin either!

 

[Zaac]

maybe because buying a beer, or taking a drink, or even smoking a cig not a sin? not healthy things to do, but not actual sin either!

So how is your choosing to spend five dollars on a drink or a BINGO card or a raffle ticket any different from someone choosing to spend a dollar on a lottery ticket?

 

[preacher4truth]

So how is your choosing to spend five dollars on a drink or a BINGO card or a raffle ticket any different from someone choosing to spend a dollar on a lottery ticket?

Perhaps this:

1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain,

1Ti 6:7 for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world.

1Ti 6:8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

1Ti 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

My wife and my gambling history is that once we went through Las Vegas on the way to Yellowstone. The night we stayed there, we took $20, split it, and played the slot machines for a couple of hours till it was gone. We then quit. I can see nothing wrong with that.

S/N, I have to ask: How can you see "nothing wrong" with literally throwing $20 away? How is that good stewardship? Returning to my first post, would you throw it out a car window? If not, why would you throw it away at a casino?

 

[Zaac]

Perhaps this:

1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain,

1Ti 6:7 for we brought nothing into the world, and we cannot take anything out of the world.

1Ti 6:8 But if we have food and clothing, with these we will be content.

1Ti 6:9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction.

1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

1Ti 6:11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.

That seems like it's applicable to any money including salaries.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

John,
I am going to say publicly what I said privately the other day, and basically sent the same message to Rippon in greater detail. Things have happened lately in the lives of people I was very close to, and to make a long story short, I am done with the smart aleck remarks back and forth. Yes, I am probably guilty of all three. I am not so sure about the false witness. It depends on what you are referring to. On the subject of Paul Washer, lets leave it that we disagree about him. I did not realize you were so involved in the ministry and in no way meant to harm or demean you. It did not help when you called me a liar.

Gee, I'm sorry you were so offended when I pointed out your lying, but I really didn't know what other word to use to describe someone who would engage in lying than a liar. Prevaricator, perhaps? Clinton-esque?

Anyway, I am done with all that, and want us two, just like I told Rippon, from this moment on, to speak as Christian brothers, and am sorry for all the names I called you in that one thread.

Only in that one thread??? Not all the other threads? Not the PMs?

 

[preacher4truth]

That seems like it's applicable to any money including salaries.

How so? I'm not sure how you came up with earning salaries as being incorrect from that text.

Most of us here earn money, nothing wrong with that. Looks like a warning about desiring to be rich and warnings concerning that and about being content. Isn't that why people gamble, so they can become rich? Many who win the lottery come into much trouble and end up broke.

 

[saturneptune]

S/N, I have to ask: How can you see "nothing wrong" with literally throwing $20 away? How is that good stewardship? Returning to my first post, would you throw it out a car window? If not, why would you throw it away at a casino?

I would probably not ever do it again. My point is, if someone uses their money, does not harm their family, and is not addicted to it, I look at it as entertainment like a movie. I feel the same way as I do about drinking. Because I do not does not give me the right to judge or tell someone else not to.

 

[Zaac]

How so? I'm not sure how you came up with earning salaries as being incorrect from that text.

Most of us here earn money, nothing wrong with that. Looks like a warning about desiring to be rich and warnings concerning that and about being content. Isn't that why people gamble, so they can become rich? Many who win the lottery come into much trouble and end up broke.

It speaks to contentment. If you'e content with your salary don't ask for a raise, ever..

Should folks not invest in stocks or have 401ks either? There seems to be a desire to get rich there also.

I'm just saying I don't think we can say that someone is not content just because they buy i.e. a lottery ticket. I just don't see any difference in that than a church raffle for a new colored tv.

 

[saturneptune]

Gee, I'm sorry you were so offended when I pointed out your lying, but I really didn't know what other word to use to describe someone who would engage in lying than a liar. Prevaricator, perhaps? Clinton-esque?



Only in that one thread??? Not all the other threads? Not the PMs?

The purpose of my post was for both of us to forget the past, not to go down a check list to see who was wrong or who won. I do not want to get back on the subject of Paul Washer, but do not see how an opinion from me about the man is a lie. It is an opinion. I did not call you a liar because you think he is a sincere speaker.

My post is as sincere as I know how to express myself. If you were going to compare me to a political figure, you could have at least said Nixon instead of Clinton. Anyway, this is off subject of this thread, and you will get no more angry remarks from me. Hope you will do the same.