Dancing, Gambling, and Drinking

[saturneptune]

I was wondering if they ever happened. My mind just doesn't see any big differnce between investing 10K to make 100K over a long period by investing in stocks which it may or may not do or spending a dollar on a lottery ticket to win a million which you may or may not win.

I do not know what ever happened to this individual. I look at investing like earning interest in a savings account. In my 401K, most of my money is in bonds and government backed securities. I think about 10% or so is in a mutual fund that follows the S and P 500 and 5% in international stocks.

 

[Yeshua1]

I was wondering if they ever happened. My mind just doesn't see any big differnce between investing 10K to make 100K over a long period by investing in stocks which it may or may not do or spending a dollar on a lottery ticket to win a million which you may or may not win.

Investing in a stock is NOT same as gambling though, as the bible commends us to invest and save for the future, but not to get "rich qick!"

Its the mindset involved, as the person buying stocks are investing money they earned from their work to try to save for future times, while a gambler just doing that to get it all 'right now!"

 

[Sapper Woody]

In my mind, the biggest difference between gambling and the stock market is that in stocks you make money off of other people's gain, not their loss. Unless you short sell, but that's a different discussion.

With that being said, I think most people should avoid gambling due to its addictive nature and potential problems that can arise. I don't see it as a sin in and of itself, but I can see how it could easily lead to sin.

Personally, I love playing Texas Hold 'em. I have an app on my phone where I play for points, no money involved. Because of this enjoyment, I accepted an invitation to play a $10 buy in to play at a battle buddy's house, winner take all. I won, and then gave the guys their money back. Obviously, there was no desire to get rich there. Was that sin? I don't think so. Even if I'd have lost, I didn't need that $10 and I got several hours of enjoyment out of it. More enjoyment than I personally would have gotten out of paying more for a sporting event.

 

[saturneptune]

In my mind, the biggest difference between gambling and the stock market is that in stocks you make money off of other people's gain, not their loss. Unless you short sell, but that's a different discussion.

With that being said, I think most people should avoid gambling due to its addictive nature and potential problems that can arise. I don't see it as a sin in and of itself, but I can see how it could easily lead to sin.

Personally, I love playing Texas Hold 'em. I have an app on my phone where I play for points, no money involved. Because of this enjoyment, I accepted an invitation to play a $10 buy in to play at a battle buddy's house, winner take all. I won, and then gave the guys their money back. Obviously, there was no desire to get rich there. Was that sin? I don't think so. Even if I'd have lost, I didn't need that $10 and I got several hours of enjoyment out of it. More enjoyment than I personally would have gotten out of paying more for a sporting event.

Well thought out post. As an added point, several of the churches around here will take a group of seniors to play bingo to win prizes. There is no money involved. I can see no problem with this. It gets the older folks out on a day trip during the week, and they really enjoy the game and enjoy the fellowship.

 

[quantumfaith]

I suppose there is a difference in gambling and investing. Investing takes some intelligence in understanding economic trends and sectors that will make a profit. The Bible does make a point that there is nothing wrong with earning interest on money saved. No one can consider gambling a serious instrument in saving towards retirement.

SN, this is only true at a very esoteric level. The concept of the market and investing SHOULD that wise intelligent investments pay off, and certainly paying attention to basic investment principles do tend to pay dividends over time. The "real money" made today is almost exclusively the domain of the those which possess access to information and can act on that information in almost instantaneous fashion (computer model trading). Such tech approaches are a subtle (or not so) attempt to outwit and outperform others in the market. Such emphasis might not be "good" for believers. Investing in market, with eyes to long term gain for prep seems to me to be a better (ethical) approach.

I see nothing wrong with "rich folk", or even the pursuit of such wealth. Scripture tells of us of many such people. We are warned that wealth and its pursuit can easily pollute our lives and walk.

 

[quantumfaith]

I will not bother you again. Wish the best for your ministry and family.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Good man SN

 

[Yeshua1]

SN, this is only true at a very esoteric level. The concept of the market and investing SHOULD that wise intelligent investments pay off, and certainly paying attention to basic investment principles do tend to pay dividends over time. The "real money" made today is almost exclusively the domain of the those which possess access to information and can act on that information in almost instantaneous fashion (computer model trading). Such tech approaches are a subtle (or not so) attempt to outwit and outperform others in the market. Such emphasis might not be "good" for believers. Investing in market, with eyes to long term gain for prep seems to me to be a better (ethical) approach.

I see nothing wrong with "rich folk", or even the pursuit of such wealth. Scripture tells of us of many such people. We are warned that wealth and its pursuit can easily pollute our lives and walk.

true, as its NOT wealth/money hat is the problem, but the LOVE of it, to gain it at all costs which is a snare to manying, as they fon't trust in the Lord to be their provision, but ole money!

 

[Zenas]

But as I said, neither gossip nor gluttony are costing us billions and billions a year in treatment, rehab, and prison costs. We need to be aware of how serious an issue gambling is, as well as excessive drinking, and that no one is immune to their seduction.

Concerning gluttony, I have to take issue with you. Heart disease and diabetes are two of the leading killers in America (heart disease is #1), and they are nearly always brought on by gluttony. The number of gambling addicts pales compared to the number of heart patients and diabetics. You gave us some of your history and it's very touching, and I am glad that God brought you out of the bondage you were in. Now, here is mine. All my life I have avoided eating healthy foods, preferring to load up on fats, sugars and salty foods. I was never obese but my body was being punished. Now I have had a coronary (cost $110,000), continuing hypertension and borderline diabetes. I have a greatly reduced life expectancy. And my doctor's office is full of patients just like me or worse.

So don't tell me that gambling is as bad as gluttony. Problem gamblers are relatively rare. However, there are millions of people just like me all over this country, with major medical issues that they have due to their gluttony.

Lest you misunderstand, I'm not downplaying problem gambling. When it occurs the damage is enormous. However, it doesn't occur often enough to come anywhere close to the damage done by gluttony, which is almost universal.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Are you also against slander and backbiting and bearing false witness?

Are you against being antagnostic? Never mind.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Concerning gluttony, I have to take issue with you. Heart disease and diabetes are two of the leading killers in America (heart disease is #1), and they are nearly always brought on by gluttony.

Not true. Most heart disease is hereditary. Diet doesn't help someone who is genetically predisposed, but cardiovascular disease, hypertension, and high cholesterol are almost exclusively hereditary.

Science Daily: Heredity Plays Big Role In Heart Disease Risk Factors​

Heritability studies were enabled by data MCG is collecting on 500 pairs of twins – blacks and whites, identical and fraternal – to determine whether environmental stress is a risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Identical twins have identical genes and fraternal twins share about 50 percent of their genes, much like normal siblings.

“Any differences between identical twins must be due to the environment,” says Dr. Harold Snieder, genetic epidemiologist. “So you can quantify the part that is due to genetics,” he says, noting that heritability provides an aggregate look at the effect of genes, many of which may still be unknown.

Across both races they found that lipid levels, which include so-called good cholesterol, HDL, and bad cholesterol, LDL, as well as triglycerides, are 60 percent to 80 percent determined by genetics.

A separate study found heart rate variability – the heart’s ability to respond to changing demands – was heritable and equally so, about 70 percent, among young blacks and whites, Dr. Snieder says.

The number of gambling addicts pales compared to the number of heart patients and diabetics.

Also not true. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention the number of non-institutionalized adults with diagnosed heart disease: 26.5 million, or 11.5% of the population. According to the National Institutes for Health, the number of diabetics in the U.S. is 25.8 million, or about 10.5% of the population of the U.S. Three in four of diabetics come from a strong family history of diabetes, according the American Diabetes Assocation. And the number of diabetics who suffer from heart disease is about 16.75 million, according to The American Heart Association. The National Gambling Impact Study Commission, found that between 15 and 20 million, or about five to seven percent of the U.S. population, exhibits evidence of problem, or disordered, gambling. That's hardly a number that "pales in comparison" to the number diagnosed with heart disease or diabetes. Keep in mind, these are numbers of diagnosed cases, in all arenas. The numbers for all these afflictions are therefore likely higher.

You gave us some of your history and it's very touching, and I am glad that God brought you out of the bondage you were in. Now, here is mine. All my life I have avoided eating healthy foods, preferring to load up on fats, sugars and salty foods. I was never obese but my body was being punished. Now I have had a coronary (cost $110,000), continuing hypertension and borderline diabetes. I have a greatly reduced life expectancy. And my doctor's office is full of patients just like me or worse.

I'm sorry you're having to bear the weight of these burdens. I will pray for you, and I'm serious when I say that. Obviously you know that diet and exercise are extremely important to your well-being. But as you said, you were never obese, yet you have developed these diseases nonetheless. Now let me ask you, did your parents suffer from either of these afflictions?

So don't tell me that gambling is as bad as gluttony.

OK. I'll let the statistics tell you that. Not equally as bad, from a population standpoint, but it isn't a small problem either.

Problem gamblers are relatively rare.

Five to seven percent of Americans isn't a number for a "rare" affliction, and among our veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, the number of men and women suffering from disordered gambling is closer to ten percent, almost all of them also exhibiting qualifying symptoms for a diagnosis of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder. If the flu had hit that high a number of infections, the CDC would be closing down air travel and declaring a national state of emergency.

However, there are millions of people just like me all over this country, with major medical issues that they have due to their gluttony.

Sorry, but it is more of an heredity issue, as the numbers bear out.

Lest you misunderstand, I'm not downplaying problem gambling. When it occurs the damage is enormous. However, it doesn't occur often enough to come anywhere close to the damage done by gluttony, which is almost universal.

I must apologize in advance here, but like most Americans, you do not know how serious the disordered gambling problem in this country has become, and it is getting worse.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I was reading through the minutes of our church in the 20s, and found a passage that the church had brought discipline against a man for investing in the stock market and he was disfellowshipped.

Why is that considered gambling or is it calculated investing?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Why is that considered gambling or is it calculated investing?

Gamblers' Anonymous advises members of its fellowship to abstain from stock market investment, because it does satisfy the urge to gamble, and often is the "acceptable" form gamblers engage in order to meet the needs of their addiction. However, since no mention is made in S/N's church's minutes of a previously existing gambling problem -- and the 1920s were ten to 25 to 30 years before the first GA meeting -- it sounds more like a legalistic, narrow-minded reaction than sound church discipline.

 

[Yeshua1]

Gamblers' Anonymous advises members of its fellowship to abstain from stock market investment, because it does satisfy the urge to gamble, and often is the "acceptable" form gamblers engage in order to meet the needs of their addiction. However, since no mention is made in S/N's church's minutes of a previously existing gambling problem -- and the 1920s were ten to 25 to 30 years before the first GA meeting -- it sounds more like a legalistic, narrow-minded reaction than sound church discipline.

Also sounds like its wise for an alcoholic to abstain from all frinking, but can not make it wrong for all to do such!

So wise to have gamblers not do that, but cannot make it same for all others!

 

[Zenas]

Obviously you know that diet and exercise are extremely important to your well-being. But as you said, you were never obese, yet you have developed these diseases nonetheless. Now let me ask you, did your parents suffer from either of these afflictions?

No they did not. Neither did my grandparents. And I am suspicious of your assertions about the pervasiveness of gambling addiction. I will pm you and tell you why.

 

[Judith]

Does anyone ever wonder how these three activities over our Baptist history have become a focal point? This is all I have heard talked about since becoming a Baptist in 1977. Any reasonable and sane person that has studied Scripture can come to the conclusion that two of these activities are not sins, and the third one is a sin when done to excess.

Yet, we know several facts from studying the Bible. We know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We know that there is not one righteous, no not one. We know that if we break one command of the Lord, as James tells us, that we have broken all. We also know that every male has committed adultery according to Matthew, by our lustful thoughts. We also know some are guilty of murder by prolonged hatred in their heart towards another.

We ignore gossip, even within the church. We glorify gluttony at pot lucks. Murder sits at our door step.

So, given all that, how on earth did we ever learn to focus on activities that are not even sin and ignore or give a pass to others? Where is history did we come up with these ideas?

A Christian lives by the power of the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ daily. We do not memorize rules that are not even sins and try to obey them in our own power.

Actually all three could be sin. I think that the early church had more wisdom than today's church which wants to play next to the edge. I think that the early church understood the command to flee from even the appearance of evil. 1Thess 5:22

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

No they did not. Neither did my grandparents. And I am suspicious of your assertions about the pervasiveness of gambling addiction. I will pm you and tell you why.

Feel free, but those are the facts, and there are no denying them. I'm a licensed addictions counselor, a licensed disordered gambling counselor, and a licensed marriage and family therapist. It's my job to know those facts.

 

[Yeshua1]

Feel free, but those are the facts, and there are no denying them. I'm a licensed addictions counselor, a licensed disordered gambling counselor, and a licensed marriage and family therapist. It's my job to know those facts.

Would say dancing and drinking NOT sins in and of themselves, but gambling would be!

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually all three could be sin. I think that the early church had more wisdom than today's church which wants to play next to the edge. I think that the early church understood the command to flee from even the appearance of evil. 1Thess 5:22

Judith, how do you know? You did not live in the first century, I suspect (but don't KNOW) that people today aren't whole lot different then people of the first century.

 

[Yeshua1]

Judith, how do you know? You did not live in the first century, I suspect (but don't KNOW) that people today aren't whole lot different then people of the first century.

man never really changes, as regardless 1st or 21 st century, we are all the same in our natures and what we do and think!

 

[OldRegular]

Does anyone ever wonder how these three activities over our Baptist history have become a focal point? This is all I have heard talked about since becoming a Baptist in 1977. Any reasonable and sane person that has studied Scripture can come to the conclusion that two of these activities are not sins, and the third one is a sin when done to excess.

Yet, we know several facts from studying the Bible. We know that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We know that there is not one righteous, no not one. We know that if we break one command of the Lord, as James tells us, that we have broken all. We also know that every male has committed adultery according to Matthew, by our lustful thoughts. We also know some are guilty of murder by prolonged hatred in their heart towards another.

We ignore gossip, even within the church. We glorify gluttony at pot lucks. Murder sits at our door step.

So, given all that, how on earth did we ever learn to focus on activities that are not even sin and ignore or give a pass to others? Where is history did we come up with these ideas?

A Christian lives by the power of the Holy Spirit to become more like Christ daily. We do not memorize rules that are not even sins and try to obey them in our own power.

Another tread designed to excel. :thumbsup: :laugh::thumbsup::laugh:

The pastor of a Church I attended for many years and which he pastored until retirement would say the following: Baptists think the four cardinal sins are drinkin, dancin, smokin, and cussin! Of course he was against all these but his point was well made.

1. I do think cussin, taking the Lord's name in vain, is a gross sin and must not be practiced by a believer.

2. Much of what young people call dancing is downright vulgar and not becoming of anyone much less a Christian.

3. I never had a problem with smoking since all my family except my mother and me smoked. It certainly is not healthy.

4. I have no real problem with drinking in moderation but there is a fine line between what is healthy and what is not. I have tried to develop a taste for red wine which is supposed to be good for the heart but can't.

Drinking and smoking are both addictive. One problem I see with drinking is that one might have a real weakness; unknown until it is too late.

There are certainly sins worse than those alleged above. Certainly misuse of the tongue, or the fingers as used on this Forum, can be very sinful. Very frequently we do not address each other as Christian brothers and sisters! I plead guilty!

I believe the worst sin I see in the "Christian" community other than Apostasy and Heresy is the widespread support of abortion and the practice of abortion by some professing "believers".