Daniel 8v13-14 and Luke 21v24

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

I appreciate your reply and Dr Walter’s reply, but unfortunately I cannot keep up with the pace of this thread, or the required involvement. I posted yesterday, and now I am online to see the responses. I do not have the spare time except to usually download these, and try to respond in a day or two after this. I am still very interested in this subject but prefer to be careful with my answers. While online, I will not answer fully the following, except to suggest my understanding of two starting times for the 70 years, and two finishing times. This may not satisfy your assessment of my view of the 2300 years in the middle of the overall vision of Daniel 8.

Originally Posted by BobRyan

Trevor -- I have a suggestion as a trial run. I suggest that no prophetic timelines -- numbered and fully identified - are to be sliced and diced with multiple starts and multiple-ends and undefined gaps of time inserted into the midst. not one single prophetic timeline in all of scripture can survive such methods.
So for example - Dan 9 starts out with the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah. That prophecy cannot be sliced into independent segments with undefined gaps inserted here and there as the reader is so inclined.

You are familiar with the Daniel 9 70-year period, so I will not detail this, except to say that I do not know the exact years. Using one reference, not because I am recommending it, I do not know, but one suggestion is that Daniel 9 70-year period commences in BC 606 the 1st invasion by Nebuchadnezzar occurred, and Daniel was amongst those taken captive. Add 70 years to this in BC 536 we have the decree of Cyrus, with the first return of the Jews Ezra 1:1-8, 3:1-4.

The final invasion by Nebuchadnezzar, with a two-year siege was BC 589-7, when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. But if we add 70 years to this we arrive at the time of Zechariah the prophet, and my reference has BC 519 for the start of Zechariah's visions in Zechariah 1:7, until the time of the completion of the temple and its dedication in BC 516 Ezra 6:15. Again I do not know how accurate any of these dates are.

But what we find is Zechariah alluding to Jeremiah’s 70-year period again, as if the one in Daniel 9 is not the only fulfilment of the 70-year prophecy by Jeremiah:
Zechariah 1:12-16 (KJV): 12 Then the angel of the LORD answered and said, O LORD of hosts, how long wilt thou not have mercy on Jerusalem and on the cities of Judah, against which thou hast had indignation these threescore and ten years? 13 And the LORD answered the angel that talked with me with good words and comfortable words. 14 So the angel that communed with me said unto me, Cry thou, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; I am jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with a great jealousy. 15 And I am very sore displeased with the heathen that are at ease: for I was but a little displeased, and they helped forward the affliction. 16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.


Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Bob,

Starting point of the Dan 8 vision
The Ram (Medo Persia) is not dead in Dan 8:3 but is alive and dominating and is conquering - it is moving out in all directions.
3 Then I lifted my eyes and looked, and behold, a ram which had two horns was standing in front of the canal. Now the two horns were long, but one was longer than the other, with the longer one coming up last.
4 I saw the ram butting westward, northward, and southward, and no other beasts could stand before him nor was there anyone to rescue from his power, but he did as he pleased and magnified himself.
The vision in vs 3 and 4 is not starting with the death of the Ram. It starts AFTER the rise of the Ram to power... (it is standing). It continues to a time when the Ram is conquering toward the West, North and South.
The dominate period for Medo-Persia when no one can stand before it is part of the vision.
So some point in the 5th century BC at least.

I am not sure if you and Dr. Walter are willing to accept what I have stated in Post #21, but in summary I believe that Jeremiah’s 70-year prophecy has at least two starting points and two ending points. A similar time chart could be drawn for the 2300. I agree that one starting point of the 2300 could be with the beginnings of the ram, but I see a significant starting point in BC334 concluding in AD 1967. In some respects, what we have in Jeremiah’s prophecy concerning the captivity in Babylon is similar in scope to the Prophecy of Daniel 8, both concluding with the rededication of the sanctuary in Jerusalem.

You might ask that if I am willing to accept one fulfillment of the 2300 somewhere in the vicinity of 1843-44, then what happened at this time. I look first at the example of what happened with Daniel, who prayed and the angels responded to his prayer. We do not have a record of any of the prayers given in 1843-44, not Divinely inspired records of any at least. But just as in Daniel’s day, the time allotted (if 1843-44 is correct) was ripe, and faithful believers of prophecy would be praying for the restoration of Israel to their land, and the reestablishment of Divine worship at Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-5. We have witnessed some of the events that the angels who control the affairs of the nations have accomplished in response to these prayers. We have seen the eventual establishment of the State of Israel in 1848, and the release of Jerusalem into the hands of the Jews in 1967. We patiently wait for the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom upon the earth for 1000 years.

That there was a large interest in these times of Daniel 8 is obvious from historical records concerning the preaching by William Miller. Out of all these, some gathered to be taken to heaven, but were disappointed. Others at this time, quoting from one SDA book that I have in front of me, "taught the restoration of the Jews and other views derived from the British literalists". It is my present belief that some of these, and others by reason of their belief and prayers concerning the purpose of God with the kingdom of God and Israel, and their belief in the things of the Name Acts 8:5,12 became in themselves part of the second portion of the restored spiritual temple, the holy place, waiting to be united with Christ at his coming 1 John 3:1-3.

Scope of Vision:
The vision itself goes from vs 3 to vs 12.
Vs 12 is not the 2nd coming.

This is from your earlier post. I believe than Daniel 8:25 is speaking of Christ’s second coming and this is parallel with Daniel 12:40-45. I would like to ask:
1. Do you believe that the latter day king of the north in Daniel 11:40-45 will appear in the future?
2. How do you understand Joel 3:1-2?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Dr. Walter,

I have no problem with a double application. The immediate - Antiochus Epiphanes and then the remote and complete - The Anti-christ at the end of this age.

I agree with a double application, but I do not believe that Daniel 8 speaks of Christ confronting the Anti-Christ. I believe the Anti-Christ is the little horn of Daniel 7, a Western Roman mainly religious entity. I believe Daniel 8 speaks concerning Christ confronting the latter-day representative of the little horn of the goat and I equate this an Eastern Roman military entity, the same as the king of the north who invades in Daniel 11:40-45, Ezekiel 38. I believe from other Scriptures that when Christ returns, the military eastern Roman power is destroyed first and some time later the religious western Roman power. We have a different view of a double application, because I see the Lord Jesus Christ as being "the prince of the host" in Daniel 8:11 and this is expanded in Daniel 9:23-27. In comparison to many prophecies, there is a shadow fulfillment and the substance is in Christ. For example, Hezekiah is the shadow fulfillment of Isaiah 53, much of the detail can be applied to him, but it fails in some areas. The detail of Isaiah 53 fits the sufferings of God’s servant Jesus completely.

However, I have a real problem with any attempt that tries to place it in the beginning of the fourth kingdom. Rome did not "rise up out of" any Grecian territory. Bequeathing land to Rome only means that Rome already existed separate from all Grecian territory and therefore could not have risen up out of any Grecian territory. The fourth kingdom does not rise up out of Grecian territory. Neither did the General Titus or any other Roman Emperor.

We will have to differ here. I came across a magazine quotation from a 1844 book on Daniel 8 and the future of Israel, (the book has 296 pages). I do not have this book, but to quote the start of this shows me how others see the power of Rome arising in one of the four Greek divisions:

"The new power (Rome) when first seen (in relation to the Holy Land) appeared as if growing out of one of the kingdoms into which the empire of Alexander had been divided. . . The wily republic first obtained an influence and a footing in the States of Greece by professing a generous concern for the liberties of weaker states and entering into friendly relations with those who courted their alliance, showing the greatest moderation to those who submitted to them, and the utmost force against those who opposed them. By these means, they gradually came to be regarded as arbiters in the disputes of nations: found the most plausible pretexts for taking part with one against another, and in the end, never failed to make a prey of all.

Go with any meaning of this word and no meaning of this word is reconciliable with destroyed or destruction as in the Olivet Discourse! It is the abomination that is made right, justified, or cleansed and the abomination is the removal of the daily offering.

The temple was desolated by the Babylonians and yet restored and cleansed. I see no difference to what has to happen with a literal future temple as a result of the events of AD 70. God still viewed the 2nd temple as a continuation of the 1st Haggai2:3, see also v6-7. I see a progression of the cleansing, vindication, justification. The 2300 period is not marking the vindication of Jesus in his death and resurrection. This is more covered by Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks. Jesus is shown also to be cleansed in:
Zechariah 3:3-4 (KJV): 3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. 4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
But other components of the Temple and sanctuary are cleansed after the 2300 years. The captivity of Judah and Jerusalem have been brought again Joel 3:1, and we await further cleansing until the throne of David is restored Isaiah 2:1-5.

I believe you are making a crucial mistake. The abominable act is the removal of the daily offering and the compensation for that act is its restoral through ceremonial cleansing! Still the "evening/morning" has to do with the sacrifice and its time of offering not with 2300 years. 2300 years have absolutely nothing to do with the "daily offering" or time it is being offered. Hence, your secondary application defies any possible relationship with "the daily offering" as the period whereby twice a day the sacrifice was offered up. 1967 did not see any restoration of the "daily offering" and neither did 1843-44 see any restoration of the "daily offering."

I would suggest that the detail of the shadow fulfillment has some echo in the substance. True worship in Israel is when God’s throne is established, and God’s temple is in operation, the Kingdom of God, as when Solomon reigned. To worship in Jerusalem with a foreign power in control is not the plan and purpose of God. The daily offering even in Israel’s time was only a symbol of the first and second greatest commandments Mark 12:28-33. I see 1967 as an essential step towards the final outcome of Jerusalem and the true worship that will be established when God’s house will be a house of prayer for all nations.

Titus did not rise up out of that Province neither did the Roman kingdom! The Roman kingdom simply took control of it as it did the rest of the world. However, Daniel 8:9 explicitly says that "out of one of them came forth a little horn" - Titus did not come forth out of the Grecian Empire. The Roman Empire did not arise out of any of the Grecian Kingdoms as Greece NEVER ruled over Italy or Rome.

This is covered earlier.

The term "cleansed" or "made righteous" conveys the idea of ceremonial defilement in regard to the "daily sacrifice." No uncircumcised Gentile could take away that sacrifice without defiling the altar and temple. Furthermore, the 2300 has reference to the "daily sacrifice" being taken away until its restoration. It was not restored in 1843-44 as Ryan believes. It was not restored in 1967 as you suggest by your dating. Your spiritualization to 2300 years has no relationship to the "daily offering" being taken away and being made right, cleansed, restored.

This is covered earlier.

Not necessarily, Daniel 8:11 uses it to describe God's people and it could be the giving of God's people into his hands that makes it possible to take away the daily offering:

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Here the "host" and "stars" are synonymous and simply mean the Prince's people or the people of God.
Antiochus made conquest of Jerusalem and it came under his control. It was "trodden down of the Gentiles" or abused and controlled by them. The temple was desolated of its function and sacrifices.

I can apply host here to the shadow and the events of AD 70.

The 2300 period is a measurement of time between the daily offering being taken away and being made right, restored, cleansed! There is no possible way that 2300 years can terminate from the taking away of the daily sacrifice unto the cross, much less, 1967 or 1843-44.

I do not believe that the 2300 measures the time to the crucifixion. This is covered by the 70 weeks prophecy.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Acts 3:19-21 (KJV): "19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (or restoration) of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began."
Notice the two phrases, "times of refreshing" and "times of restoration of all things". The opening thread speaks of "the times of the Gentiles" Luke 21:24, but when these times are finished, Jesus will return to bring refreshing and will restore all things, and these things have been spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets.

There appears to be many views of what will happen when Christ returns. Some suggest that the earth will be destroyed, others that the earth will be burned and left desolate for 1000 years. But the clear testimony of the above passage is that Jesus will bring times of refreshing and restore all things. He will reign over the restored earth for 1000 years, sitting upon the throne of David in Jerusalem. A few passages will suffice – Psalm 72, Isaiah 2:1-4, Isaiah 35, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14.

It is interesting that the visions of Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14, both speaking of the restoration of the Kingdom of God centred in Jerusalem, also speak of an earthquake that precedes this restoration. Both in effect use the earthquake of Uzziah’s day as an example of this future earthquake. Uzziah’s day was noted for its prosperity, pride, idolatry and excessive military armaments – not much different from today’s nations. It is sobering to consider the recent earthquakes in Christchurch and Japan, as possible indicators or tokens of the judgments to come. And yet out of this future devastation, Christ will come and refresh and restore all things.

A brief perusal of Acts 3 shows that Peter speaks of the things of the name of Jesus Christ and the things of the kingdom. These two elements represent the gospel which was preached by the Apostles. After a belief of the gospel, comprising a correct understanding of these two elements, the early followers were baptised. Compare the summary given concerning the preaching by Philip:
Acts 8:5 (KJV): "Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them."
Acts 8:12 (KJV): "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women."

Kind regards
Trevor