Unless he holds to the elect have to perserve unto very end to actually be saved?
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Dead Faith as taught by the Apostle James
- Thread starter Moriah
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Unless he holds to the elect have to perserve unto very end to actually be saved?
What makes you think feelings and faith or two separate things? Please explain that to me using scripture.
How would you tell him? Please be very detailed in your explaining to me.
Why do you think he would be confused? What do you think would be causing his confusion?
If you can continue to discuss this deeply with me, then I am hoping it will show you the truth.
Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel. Jesus spoke in parables so that the Jews who did not obey and love God could not understand and so be saved.
I have explained this to you many times. When Jesus was lifted up, THEN he would draw ALL men to him. Jesus tells us that in the scriptures. Jesus came first for those who were waiting for him; the Gentiles were not waiting for him! The Gentiles were not included in the promises yet. Only after Jesus was lifted up were all men able to come to him.
Who were the people who belonged to God before Jesus came to earth? It was the Jews. The resurrection is not restricted only to the Jews; it is just to whom Jesus was speaking at the time, before he was lifted up.
feelings can come and go, but faith is like love, act of commitment....
the person might not "feel" saved, or perhaps still has areas of sin and temptation going on...
want to assure him that we trust in whast God said in the Bible about faith in jesus is what allows God to save us by the Cross of Chrsit, and that we are still struggling thru life while in this flesh!
Let him also know good to study the Bible, pray, fellowship in a good local church now as a beleiever in jesus...
letting him know is a process to become more like jesus...
Does your love come and go too?
Then he tells you he still believes in God, but does not feel saved, even when praying, fellowshipping, and going to a good local church. What do you tell him now?
Feelings have nothing to do with faith. You really need to learn what faith is.
There are many people in this world that are incapable of feeling. They are "impassible," incapable of feeling.
im·pas·si·ble incapable of emotion; impassive.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/impassible
On the other hand there are many that simply run their lives on their emotions. That usually ends up in disaster. An example of running your life of your emotions is getting up in the morning "when you feel like it," rather then when the alarm rings, and then getting to the office or place of work when you "feel like it," rather then when your employer requires you to be there. That is not the kind of behavior our Lord teaches us to have.
Faith and feeling are two very different things. Many don't even have feelings.
Feelings DO have to do with faith.
When the Word of God says, believe with your heart, what do you think that means?
I usually do not like to debate using man’s wisdom, but tell me this, does a person feel like keeping their job? Does a person feel like getting a paycheck? They might not feel like getting up, but they do feel something now do they not.
The people you say do not have feelings, are these people claiming to be saved?
Where do you get now that I say no Jews could come to Jesus?
Not until after Jesus was lifted up. After Jesus was lifted up, all people, and not just the Jews could get Jesus’ teachings and obey them. It does not change the fact that Jesus came first for the lost sheep of Israel.
No, and I do not know how you can get that from what I have said. Maybe if you repent for following false doctrines, then you might have the eyes of your heart opened, then you can understand what the Word is that I am explaining.
What would it hurt you if you said aloud to God through Jesus, that you are sorry for believing false doctrines? What could it hurt? Try it. I did that then called on the name of the Lord. Jesus saved me and opened the eyes of my heart.
There is no difference in Christ. That does not change the fact that the Jews were God’s children, and they had the covenants and promises. They are the ones who waited for the Messiah. They were God’s people. Why would Jesus not come for His first, those who knew him and waited for him?
I hope that you consider more carefully.
You should be more careful how you speak to others.
You should be more careful how you speak.
Jesus was given authority over all flesh, that does not mean restricted to Jewish flesh, nor did I say that.
All that were God’s were given to Jesus. Before Jesus came to earth, people did not go through Jesus, for Jesus did not yet come to the earth. They belonged to God and did not know of Jesus yet. Those who belonged to God were then given to Jesus when Jesus came to earth. They were God’s, but God gave them to Jesus, for they now have to go through Jesus to stay God’s people.
How do you get that that is just about the Jews?
I know you posted all this before, that you just copy/pasted, but I do not mind repeating the answer, for then there is a chance more will read and hear the truth.
John 6:37-40, 44-45 is about the time God restricted those who could come to Jesus to only those who already belonged to Him by obeying and loving Him. The rest of the Jews were cut off, so that Gentiles could later be grafted in. Gentiles could not be grafted in until Jesus was lifted up.
No they don't. That is not supported by Scripture. Don't run your life by your feelings. You will be in trouble if you do.
The heart is the mind. It is not the organ that keeps the blood flowing.
It is not emotions. It is the mind. "Therefore with the mind I serve the law of God." Paul does not serve God with the emotions, but with his mind.
If they want to keep their job they must do their work whether they feel like working or not.
Feelings have nothing to do with it. It is their duty to perform that will gain them their paycheck. But salvation is different. It is not of works. The wages of death is sin. We work for the consequence of our sin--death. But the gift of God is eternal life. That is a gift and involves no work at all.
They are capable of being saved. Any person is capable of being saved.
Many people are impassive--do not have the capability of emotions.
Are you the hyper-Calvinist and have already pre-determined that God has made them that way because they are ordained to spend eternity to hell. You believe they are incapable of having faith because you believe faith is an emotion. I never knew you were such a hyper-Calvinist. Your beliefs make you one, don't they?
Or do they make God so anemic and powerless that he cannot save an impassive person? Which is it?
I understand your explanation completely! However, your explanation has nothing to do with John 6:29-71 - nothing at all. You have simply taken truths related to other contexts and vainly attempted to force it upon this context.
In this particular context Jesus is describing and characterizing the nature of saving faith which has no ethnic boundaries or limitations but is what it is regardless of whom it is applied unto and regardless of the ethnicity of the audiance being addressed.
Your explanation is fundementally incorrect. No human being is born with love for God as Jesus plainly says in John 3:17 as all human beings are born "condemned already" and all are born in UNBELIEF and all are by nature lovers of darkness and hater's of light (Jn. 3:18-20) because that is the essence of the sinful nature they are born with when they come into this world and it does not take long to see. Children NEVER need to be taught to do wrong as that comes NATURAL but they need to be taught to do RIGHT because that is UNNATURAL and comes only by DISCIPLINE of the sinful nature. This is a fundemental truth easily recognizable and obvious that you must deny to teach your absolute nonsenical "explanation." Those who do come to light come because of a transforming work of God within them - the new birth - Jn. 3:1-11; 21.
Furthermore, the text says nothing about those who "love" God as the reason they come to Christ. It says they must be "given" and must be "drawn" or else "no MAN CAN come." However, you change the languague to suit your false doctrines rather than transform your thinking to the language used by the Holy Spirit.
Nicodemus could be born again by the Holy Spirit PRIOR to Pentecost contrary to your false "explanation" - Jn. 3:1-11
Nicodemus could be "saved" and have eternal life PRIOR to Pentecost contrary to your false "explanation" - Jn. 3:16 and so could anyone believing the gospel Jesus preached - Jn. 5:24.
Your "explanation" of John 12 and drawing all men to himself is also contextually false. The immediate context shows this is a direct response to GENTILES coming to Christ and the words "all men" translated the Greek term "pas" which is found in the anarthous construct (no definite article) and means ALL CLASSES or KINDS of men of which the GENTILES are the subject of the immediate context denying that salvation provided by Christ is restricted to Jews as your "explanation" asserts. Jesus saved Gentiles while on earth - (1) the Seraphoncian woman; (2) the Roman Centurian; and these Gentiles in John 12.
Your mind is perverted by your false teachers and teaching so that you will not accept the inspired language of the Holy Spirit but CHANGE and PERVERT it to suit your own belly (desires).
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That is not true, nor is it a legitimate defense, to state a personal opinion is not to prove anything. It is all you have though.
Jesus at the time was only speaking to the Jews, only later were people of your nationality could be included, when Jesus was lifted up.
Jesus was speaking only to Jews. In John chapter 6, the chapter in which we are discussing, the people Jesus was speaking to called him “Rabbi”. Only the Jews called their teachers “Rabbi” v. 25. The people spoke of “our Fathers’ v. 31, the Jews were the only people who called the Patriarchs ‘Father’. Jesus spoke of Moses v. 32; Moses was leader of the Jews, not Gentiles, or Greeks. The scripture in John chapter 6 even says in relation to whom Jesus was speaking, “The Jews” v. 41, and again, “The Jews” v. 52.
Do you still not understand that Jesus was only speaking to the Jews at that time?
No. Your explanation is incorrect.
The scriptures you reference do not say what you say they do. No scriptures say what you do, that humans are totally depraved, that humans cannot believe in God after learning of Him.
Quote even just one scripture that says what you say. Quote even just one scripture that says, “No human can believe in God even after learning of Him.” Quote even just one scripture that says, “God gives the Holy Spirit to humans before they believe in Him.”
You cannot give one scripture that says any of those things; those things that your religion teaches as God’s truth are manufactured beliefs. Manufactured beliefs that got to be by adding scriptures together that are not understood in the first place.
As I have been telling you, that you do not seem to be able to retain, is that they first loved God.
You give only false opinions of me, and you prove nothing. You dodge the scriptures; deny them, and then you even go against them.
That is what you said in another thread. I told you that Nicodemus, as a leader of the Jews, should have known that the scriptures spoke of a time when people will be born of the Spirit, born again.
The gospel of Jesus was not available as a Covenant until the New Testament times.
I am the one who explained to you that John 12:32 is about all men including Gentiles.
Where do the scriptures say the Seraphoncian woman was saved? Where does it say the Roman Centurion at that time was saved? Remember; do not add to the word of God.
You just described yourself, and you show whether or not if Jesus saved you.
In John 3:16 Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus, a Jew, as you claim he was speaking to the Jews throughout the NT. Have you cut this verse out of your Bible? It is only for the Jews after all. You must not use such Scripture when witnessing to others. Do you know how ridiculous your arguments sound?
What about John 14:6:
I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes unto the Father but by me.
Is this truth only for the Jews also?
I am the door, by me if any man shall enter in he shall be saved...
Is this verse only for the Jews?
I am the bread of life--only for the Jews??
How much of the gospels do you throw out?
John 6:45 clearly and explicity teaches that LEARNING of the Father is part of being DRAWN to the Son and so and "NO MAN" and the Greek term translated "man" is anthropos which also means "MANKIND" or "HUMAN" can come excpet they are first drawn by the Father which means they are instructed and taught by the Father and EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY "him" that is drawn (v. 44a) is the "him" that is raised to eternal life (v. 44b).
However, what do you care about what scriptures teach as you pervert them to teach what you want - just watch and see!
Remember, Jesus often told JEWS that it is their faith that "saved" them and in regard to both of these Gentiles he regarded their faith GREATER than any of the Jews in Israel - read it and repent of your false accusations.
Find one single statement in John 3:1-16 that anything Jesus said to Nicodemus was for the future OR that Nicodemus understood anything said to him was yet FUTURE????
You cannot find such in this context. It is based upon your false understanding of the New Covenant as you deny it is the "EVERLASTING covenant" - (Heb. 13:20) which was preached by all the prophets BEFORE the cross and by which they did receive remission of sins when they believed in it (Acts 10:43; Rom. 3:25).
Again you READ INTO a context what is not there and make Christ foolish in telling Nicodemus what he MUST do what you imagine he could not do.
Again you READ INTO a context what you WANT IT TO SAY but if you were an honest man and you are not, you would admit the text says no such thing!
Regardless IF Jesus spoke to the jews only, is n't the point that BOTh jews/gentiles have same sin problem before God, and dealt with same way in salvation by God?
That is precisely correct.
1. BEFORE the cross Jesus said there is but ONE WAY to heaven - Mt. 7:14
2. BEFORE the cross Jesus said He was the only way to the Father - Jn. 14:6
3. AFTER the cross Peter said there was N
THER NAME GIVEN UNDER HEAVEN where by man could be saved - Acts 4:124. AFTER the cross Peter said all prophets prior to the cross preached remission of sins BY FAITH IN THE COMING CHRIST - Acts 10:43
5. Paul said THE LAW OF MOSES was "added" but not to obtain eternal life or justification before God (Gal. 3:21-24) but to teach Jews they were sinners and then point them to faith in the same gospel of Christ preached at the time of Moses - Heb. 4:2
Moriah is as blind as a bat and it does not matter what the Bible says he will remain blind until God opens his eyes.
John wrote about Jesus Christ. How do you think that John 3:16 says Jesus did not come first for the Jews? Go ahead try to answer that question.
You have no idea about the truth I am speaking.
That was first for the Jew, then all men after Jesus was lifted up.
Do you understand what first means? Does it mean forever the only ones? No. Did I ever say ‘first and only’? No. Why can you not fathom that first does not mean there will not be others? I have tried to explain this to you many times over the months that I have been here. What is blocking you from comprehending such common sense thinking about being first? If you only have one child and will have no more, do you introduce him or her as your first child? Does not the word ‘first’ conjure up the thought that there will be a second?
The Jews were first, and not just any and all the Jews, only the Jews who believed in God before Jesus came. This is about Jesus coming first for the lost sheep. Again, not all the Jews were considered the lost sheep of Israel.
Why is the truth about this blocked from you? Is it something against the Jews being first that you cannot accept? Are you jealous? Was your nationality of people like the Jews who had the works of the law? Go read Leviticus and about all the offerings one had to do just to worship God. Read about all the rules and regulations. Did your nation of people the Gentiles do any of these works, can you even comprehend having to give Burnt Offerings; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Burnt Offering; the Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; The Drink Offerings. Did your people observe the Feasts and Festivals? A seven day festival of Unleavened Bread; the festival of Harvest; the festival of Ingathering; the weekly sabbath (Lev 23:1-4) and seven annual feast days: Passover (7 days, incl. unleavened bread), First fruits, Pentecost or Weeks, the New Year, the Day of Atonement, the first day of Booths, and the eighth day of Booths (Lev 23:5-44)?
What do you not get about the Jews were God’s people through the works of the law?
This is what Jesus said first for the Jew then to all men.
I do no such thing. You just do not understand.
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
Matthew 10:6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
Romans 2:10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
Romans 2:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;
Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
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You need to repent. Some had great faith, but that does not mean they could be grafted in until Jesus was lifted up. Do not add to God’s word.
Do you know what it means many will come and take their places? Does that mean it was happening at that second? No.
Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
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