Dead Faith as taught by the Apostle James

[DHK]

A Catholic could do good things in their life that is not the point. The point is, when you do get Jesus’ teachings, as the Catholics say they do, but when they go against them, then that is not going to get you saved.

That holds true for every person doesn't it?

For one thing, I have told you repeatedly not to call obeying Jesus a work,

It is a work.
Baptism is a work; prayer is a work; the study of your Bible is a work; going to church is a work. All of these are works. Jesus condemned such works as traditions when done by the Pharisees because of the heart attitude. When Catholics do these works, these works will not get them to heaven. They are simply works, sincere as they may be, they will lead them on the road to hell. They are works, filthy rags of righteousnesses.

because you confuse it with doing anything right, instead of it sometimes meaning the the Old Testament works of the law like circumcision and sin offerings.

That is not true. The Book of Ephesians does not deal with the OT law as such, and works are not referred to as such. Works are works are works. One does not get to heaven by works, of any kind. You are the one confused here.

I have explained that to you repeatedly, and in detail.

And your explanation is your own mixed up philosophy. It is not the Word of God. It is your own idea, and it wrong.

Works that we are no longer saved by are that of worshiping rules and regulations. Again, stop calling obeying Jesus a work,

Why don't you like the truth. Stephen called that being "stiffnecked, and resisting the Holy Spirit."

since you are so confused by the different works spoken of in the Bible. It is only a work in the Old Testament when following the rules and regulations about circumcision, sin offerings, etc, that we are no longer saved by.

A work is a work is a work. The word, ergos, is "something you do." You pray, work, baptize, study, etc. These are all works. They prayed in the OT and they prayed in the NT. Why would OT prayer be a work and NT prayer not be a work?

We can believe and obey Jesus before we are saved,

No you cannot. It is the work that God considers filthy rags and will not accept.

and thankfully, he saves us not long after obeying, and we do good works after we are saved.

God has never accepted anyone on the basis of good works or obedience. It is by grace through faith and not of works. Why don't you believe the Word of God?

You are trying to nullify God’s Word about obeying and then receiving the Holy Spirit. See Acts 5:32 and John 14.

Who is greater: Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
The disciples had Christ in the flesh and would only receive the Spirit once Christ had departed. That was his promise to them. Do you have Jesus in the flesh? No. But if you are saved then you have the Spirit dwelling in you. That is why.

What a lie. The angel appeared to Cornelius to tell him his prayers and gifts went before God as a memorial offering. Why even tell us about that if it did not matter. Why even say Cornelius was a devout and God-fearing man that gave generously?

"There is none good but one, and that is God."
God told Cornelius that he would send someone to show him how to be saved. If that was true then it was also true that he was not saved at that moment. God also appeared to unsaved men in the OT. He appeared to the Egyptian King and warned him not to take Sarah for his wife or he would be a dead man. He appeared to Nebuchadnezzar in a dream. That got Daniel out of jail, so Daniel was able to interpret it for him. God has both talked to and appeared to those that are unsaved. In fact God spoke to a man through a donkey. If he could use a donkey, I suppose he could use you if you submit to him.

You speak the words of Calvinists, and not the Word of God.

The Bible says:
"There is none righteous no not one."
Since when did that become the words of a Calvinist and not the Word of God. You are a confused man.

 

[Moriah]

That holds true for every person doesn't it?

No, it is not true for everyone.

It is a work.

Can you imagine telling someone about the gospel of Jesus Christ, they believe and feel bad about all their sins, and then you tell them, “Stop, do not feel bad about your sins, it will be considered a work and you will be condemned.” Now, do not tell me that they cannot feel bad about their sins until after they are saved, for I felt bad about my sins before I was saved.

The works of the Old Testament circumcision, bringing unblemished animals, bringing gift offerings, etc, do not save us.

God says to search for Him and He will be found. If a person is searching for God, that means they are NOT YET SAVED. Therefore, to do THINGS TO FIND GOD IS NOT WRONG AS YOU SAY IT IS.

Baptism is a work; prayer is a work; the study of your Bible is a work; going to church is a work. All of these are works.

I do not agree with you. Prayer a work? Do you think breathing is a work? I guess if Jesus saves someone who is breathing, then they contributed to their salvation, according to your logic.

We have to obey Jesus before being saved, that is what the scriptures say, and we have to obey Jesus after we are saved, that is what the scriptures say. You said before in another thread that we did not have to do anything before we are saved nor after we are saved, but I have shown you scriptures that prove you wrong.

Jesus condemned such works as traditions when done by the Pharisees because of the heart attitude.

The Pharisees did not believe in Jesus. The Pharisees ADDED to God’s word, thus nullifying it.

When Catholics do these works, these works will not get them to heaven.

The Catholics are not doing works that God told ANYONE to do, whether saved or no. The Catholics do things THAT ARE AGAINST THE WORD OF GOD. Can you not understand that? How would it EVER be PLEASING to God when people do things He commands us not to do?

They are simply works, sincere as they may be, they will lead them on the road to hell.

Again, they ARE NOT simply works. It is SIN. To do things God commands not to do is SIN.

That is not true. The Book of Ephesians does not deal with the OT law as such, and works are not referred to as such.

You are in error. The Book of Ephesians does deal with the Old Testament law as works. Ephesians 2 is about the Gentiles being able to be saved not even though they did not have any of the external washings for worshiping God. Ephesians 2:9 (says not of works), then the very next two scriptures later circumcision is mentioned!

Works are works are works. One does not get to heaven by works, of any kind. You are the one confused here.

There are different kinds of works. Do you think that if a foreigner came to the Jews and said I want to worship your God, but they did not want to be circumcised, they did not want to give sin offerings, could they worship God? NO. Do you think that they could say they want to do something else for the works of God, like maybe dance around a fire every full moon, as an offering to God? NO. It matters what kind of works people do. Do you know what happened to Aaron’s sons when they offered incense that God did not say to do?

And your explanation is your own mixed up philosophy. It is not the Word of God. It is your own idea, and it wrong.

I get my beliefs from Jesus Christ and the written word of God. Your beliefs definitely come from men, men who took false Catholic doctrine and tried to reform falseness, instead of throwing it all out and learning from God.

Why don't you like the truth. Stephen called that being "stiffnecked, and resisting the Holy Spirit."

Jesus Christ himself saved me. For you to keep trying to save I am not saved just makes me see how far from God you really are.

No you cannot. It is the work that God considers filthy rags and will not accept.

You said it is as filthy rags to believe and obey Jesus before we are saved. If that is not a doctrine of demons than what is?

God has never accepted anyone on the basis of good works or obedience. It is by grace through faith and not of works. Why don't you believe the Word of God?

God gives the Holy Spirit to those He accepts, to those who obey Him. Acts 5:32 and John 14.

Who is greater: Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
The disciples had Christ in the flesh and would only receive the Spirit once Christ had departed. That was his promise to them. Do you have Jesus in the flesh? No. But if you are saved then you have the Spirit dwelling in you. That is why.

That makes no sense what you say right there.

"There is none good but one, and that is God."
God told Cornelius that he would send someone to show him how to be saved. If that was true then it was also true that he was not saved at that moment. God also appeared to unsaved men in the OT. He appeared to the Egyptian King and warned him not to take Sarah for his wife or he would be a dead man.

The angel appeared to Cornelius to tell him how to be saved. Do you think the Egyptian King was warned not to take Sarah for his wife or to have eternal salvation? I can hardly believe you use the man who wanted Sarah as an example.

He appeared to Nebuchadnezzar in a dream. That got Daniel out of jail, so Daniel was able to interpret it for him. God has both talked to and appeared to those that are unsaved. In fact God spoke to a man through a donkey. If he could use a donkey, I suppose he could use you if you submit to him.

You try to nullify God’s Word, the Truth, by bringing up completely different passages.

The Bible says:
"There is none righteous no not one."
Since when did that become the words of a Calvinist and not the Word of God. You are a confused man.

You are confused. Paul was explaining about the Jews being sinners just like the Gentiles, even though the Jews had the relationship with God. Paul was quoting the Old Testament, that there is no one who is righteous AND NEVER SINS, see Ecclesiastes. There was a time where David wrote, about a time when no one searched for God, but later they did!
Instead of always coming on just repeating your false doctrines, why do you never answers all my questions to you?
During slavery in Egypt, the Jewish people asked God, if he had forgotten them. How could they do so, if THEY were not wondering where He had disappeared?

Answer that please. Seriously, answer that.

In the New Testament, when Jesus arrived, people shouted: “Son of David, have mercy on me”. They were looking for the Messiah. In the New Testament a blind man was searching for the Son of God, the prophet’s had said would come.

Answer that please. You are acting like you have no sense when it comes to God’s word.

 

[DHK]

No, it is not true for everyone.

Yes it is. It doesn't matter if a person is a Catholic, pagan or atheist. No good work will save them. There is nothing good that any one of them can do before God.

Can you imagine telling someone about the gospel of Jesus Christ, they believe and feel bad about all their sins, and then you tell them, “Stop, do not feel bad about your sins,

Emotions are not works. They are sometimes the result of works, or the cause of works. A man kills out of anger, an emotion. But the killing is the work. A man does his work joyfully. The joy is a result of the work or perhaps in some cases his relationship with God. It is not a work but a result of the work.

it will be considered a work and you will be condemned.” Now, do not tell me that they cannot feel bad about their sins until after they are saved, for I felt bad about my sins before I was saved.

It doesn't matter how you felt. Feelings can't save. Only faith in Christ can save.

The works of the Old Testament circumcision, bringing unblemished animals, bringing gift offerings, etc, do not save us.

I would hate to see you in child evangelism. Do you think you need to teach a ten year old girl all about circumcision and animal sacrifices before she is able to be saved. But she can know the teaching of Eph.2:8,9 quite clearly.

God says to search for Him and He will be found. If a person is searching for God, that means they are NOT YET SAVED. Therefore, to do THINGS TO FIND GOD IS NOT WRONG AS YOU SAY IT IS.

An unsaved searches for God as a thief searches for a policeman. They do not search for God.

I do not agree with you. Prayer a work? Do you think breathing is a work? I guess if Jesus saves someone who is breathing, then they contributed to their salvation, according to your logic.

Then you don't know what prayer is.
First the heat works involuntarily. What if you had to think to make your heart beat every second, just like you have to think to close your hand into a fist. That is voluntary. But you don't have to think about your heart working; it works on its own, and that is good for you. You would be dead as soon as you fell asleep. So that is the work of God keeping you alive, not your work.

Men and women of God ought to "travail in prayer." "Travail" means to labor hard. It is the word used when women go into "labor." After Jesus had a long day, late into the night of healing people and being pressed upon by the crowd, a great while before down he went up into a mountain and there alone he prayed. That took discipline, work. John Hyde, known as praying Hyde, went to India in the mid-1800's. He would sometimes fast and pray for up to 26 days before he would preach. That is work. David Brainerd, who worked among the North American native peoples was often found praying fervently for the people God had given him. Often he would be out in a snowbank on his face praying. That is work. Have you ever spent a time praying through the night? It takes work, discipline. Have you fasted and prayed for more than three days and nights. Jesus did it for forty days and nights, as did Moses and Elijah. It is work. Travail in prayer. It is a command.
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
It takes work. Therefore it is a work.

We have to obey Jesus before being saved, that is what the scriptures say

The Scriptures don't say that anywhere. It is a heresy. One is saved by faith and faith alone; not of works.

and we have to obey Jesus after we are saved,

We obey Jesus not of necessity, but because we are saved. You talk like a Roman Catholic praying the rosary. "We have to do works."

You said before in another thread that we did not have to do anything before we are saved

If you do works in order to be saved then you deny the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. You insult him and say that his atonement wasn't good enough for you.

nor after we are saved, but I have shown you scriptures that prove you wrong.

Works after salvation are a natural result of a Christian. Are they absolutely necessary. For the thief on the cross they weren't.

 

[The Biblicist]

As for when Jesus says no one is good only God alone is good. That is about whom goodness comes, not from anyone else, but God alone.

If Jesus wanted to say "all goodness comes from God" he could have said that and would have said that but that is not what he said and you are guilty of changing what he said to what YOU WANT him to say.

He said that "There IS NONE good" and that is precisely what He means so don't change his words. He stated a UNIVERSAL rule and gave only ONE exception to that rule "but God."

Paul declared the same thing "There IS NONE good, no, NOT ONE" and the context refers to all who are "UNDER SIN" - Rom. 3:9 and there is none born into this world who are not born "UNDER SIN" because even the infant is SUBJECT TO DEATH and death is due to be UNDER Sin's wages.

I will say this again, IF this same young ruler came to you and said, "Good Moriah, what good thing can I do to inherit eternal life?" YOU WOULD NEVER RESPOND with the words Jesus responded "Why callest thou me good" and YOU WOULD NEVER assert "THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE AND THAT IS GOD"!

You would never respond with THOSE EXACT WORDS because you do not believe those EXACT WORDS and you know it! You can't even use those EXACT WORDS in your response but you are FORCED TO CHANGE THOSE WORDS to other words when even talking about them.

 

[Moriah]

Yes it is. It doesn't matter if a person is a Catholic, pagan or atheist. No good work will save them. There is nothing good that any one of them can do before God.

Believing, confessing, trusting God, and calling on the name of the Lord could save them.

See Romans 10.

Emotions are not works. They are sometimes the result of works, or the cause of works. A man kills out of anger, an emotion. But the killing is the work.

Jesus says anyone who hates is a murderer.

A man does his work joyfully. The joy is a result of the work or perhaps in some cases his relationship with God. It is not a work but a result of the work.

Could you give me the scriptures for what you say?

It doesn't matter how you felt. Feelings can't save. Only faith in Christ can save.

You are wrong. Why do you think God looks in the heart if what is in the heart does not matter?

I would hate to see you in child evangelism. Do you think you need to teach a ten year old girl all about circumcision and animal sacrifices before she is able to be saved. But she can know the teaching of Eph.2:8,9 quite clearly.

I would not ever tell someone to believe and do nothing else. I want to laugh, but it is just too serious of a matter. Tell us DHK, if a person said he believes in God, and then his friend, pastor, TV evangelist, relative, or whoever told him he is now saved, so he calls himself a Christian and joins a church. Nevertheless, he starts to question if he really is saved. He then reads in the Bible the scripture to examine ourselves, to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. So, he comes to you and asks you what does that mean, what do you tell him?

An unsaved searches for God as a thief searches for a policeman. They do not search for God.

Are you saying only saved people search for God? How does a saved person search for God? Why do they have to search for God, if they are saved?

Men and women of God ought to "travail in prayer." "Travail" means to labor hard. It is the word used when women go into "labor." After Jesus had a long day, late into the night of healing people and being pressed upon by the crowd, a great while before down he went up into a mountain and there alone he prayed. That took discipline, work. John Hyde, known as praying Hyde, went to India in the mid-1800's. He would sometimes fast and pray for up to 26 days before he would preach. That is work. David Brainerd, who worked among the North American native peoples was often found praying fervently for the people God had given him. Often he would be out in a snowbank on his face praying. That is work. Have you ever spent a time praying through the night? It takes work, discipline.

Matthew 6:7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8“So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

Have you fasted and prayed for more than three days and nights. Jesus did it for forty days and nights, as did Moses and Elijah. It is work. Travail in prayer. It is a command.
The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
It takes work. Therefore it is a work.

To eat is maybe a work, but not to eat is a work to you too? Who cares? Do what God says to do! Do what God says to do when you want to find Him, and continue to do what God says to do after you have been found. How do you think that it is love for God if you tell people not to do ANYTHING but believe?

The Scriptures don't say that anywhere. It is a heresy. One is saved by faith and faith alone; not of works.

You say different from what Jesus says.

Acts 55:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

I guess it is heresy compared to your strange doctrines.

We obey Jesus not of necessity, but because we are saved. You talk like a Roman Catholic praying the rosary. "We have to do works."

God does not even know you if you do not obey Him. Is that not enough of a reason to obey Him? God says you are a liar if you say you know Him but do not do what He says. Is that not enough of a reason to obey Him? Sounds like a necessity to me. Jesus says you will remain in His love if you obey Him. Is that not enough reason to obey Him? There is no choice in whether or not you want to obey God.

As for the rosary, I would not tell someone to do something that God says not to do.

If you do works in order to be saved then you deny the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. You insult him and say that his atonement wasn't good enough for you.

It would be an insult to Jesus if I went to find an animal to give a burnt offering, or a sin offering, or a fellowship offering.

I t is not an insult to obey Jesus. That is a teaching from demons.

And if you do nothing, the Word of God says you are a liar. If you do nothing, then Jesus says you are out of His love. You cannot see that you speak of things that those from the reformed group misunderstood.

Is believing a work to you? Is fearing God a work to you? Is being humble a work to you? Is confessing a work to you? Is trusting God a work to you? Is being hungry a work to you? Is being thirsty a work to you? Is calling on the name of the Lord to you?

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6.

Is hunger and thirst a work? To hunger and to thirst is a condition of a person’s spirit. If it is as you say, that our spirit has nothing to do with whether or not we have salvation, then what does it matter if we hunger or thirst?

"Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 10:11. Is trust a work?

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13. Is calling a work?

You say we have to do nothing at all. That is nonsensical, to say the least. We have to do that which God says to do.

Why is it that you never answered me when I showed you scripture saying we have to believe, confess, trust, and call on the name of the Lord?
Romans
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord, “and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Works after salvation are a natural result of a Christian. Are they absolutely necessary. For the thief on the cross they weren't.

The thief on the cross BELIEVED in Jesus; he FEARED God; he HUMBLED himself; he CONFESSED his sin; and he called on the name of the Lord.
The thief on the cross did what the Bible tells us to do.

 

[Moriah]

If Jesus wanted to say "all goodness comes from God" he could have said that and would have said that but that is not what he said and you are guilty of changing what he said to what YOU WANT him to say.

I do not believe you know God at all.
Therefore, you do not think all goodness comes from God. Is that right?
Since God alone is good, then we know that to do anything good is to do it through God.
Everything good is from God.
Genesis 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.
God says we are like Him knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
When someone does something good, how can it not be through God?

I will say this again, IF this same young ruler came to you and said, "Good Moriah, what good thing can I do to inherit eternal life?" YOU WOULD NEVER RESPOND with the words Jesus responded "Why callest thou me good" and YOU WOULD NEVER assert "THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE AND THAT IS GOD"!

You need to stop telling me what I do and what I do not do.

 

[The Biblicist]

Since God alone is good, then we know that to do anything good is to do it through God.

Why are you avoiding my question? Jesus DID NOT say "all goodness is of God"! He said, "THERE IS NONE GOOD but one and that is God." Why are you changing the words of Christ?

Again, If someone came running up to you and said, "Good Moriah, what good thing CAN I DO to inherit eternal life?" Would you use the EXACT WORDS Christ used in response???? Would you respond, "WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD?" Would you respond that way? Furthermore, would YOU respond "THERE IS NONE GOOD, but one and that is God."

You know you would not respond to that particular question with those particular words so why LIE and why keep changing Christ's words to mean something he never said? He never said "goodness comes only from God" because what does that have to do with "Why callesth thou me good?" Your intepretation is absolute nonsense! Yes, all goodness does come from God. That is why we must first be created in Christ Jesus by God "UNTO good works" - Eph. 2:10 - because all our righteouenssess are as filthy rages until we receive from God the ability to do goodness and that is by the creative work of God - Eph. 2:10. That is very true but he never said that! I thought you loved God's Word so why do you CHANGE HIS WORDS?

Now, be honest and answer my question. If a person came running up to you and said, "Good Moriah, what good thing must I do to inherit eternal life?" would you respond with these precise words?

1. "Why callest thou me good"?

2. "There is NONE GOOD but one and that is God"

He did not say "goodness comes from God alone" but he said "THERE IS NONE GOOD" that is a universal rule with only one except to the rule. Why do you keep changing his words and ignoring my direct questions? I will tell you why because you would NEVER respond with those exact words to that exact question and you know it because you don't believe what Jesus said and that is why you change his words to suit your own theology.

Paul said the same thing - "THERE IS NONE GOOD, no, NOT ONE" and he said that not in a context that goodness comes only from God but in a context of those "UNDER SIN" and every human being is born "UNDER SIN" (Rom. 3:9) because they come into this world "condemned already" because they come into this world in unbelief (Jn. 3:17-18) and they come into this world SUBJECT TO DEATH because they come into this world "UNDER SIN" or else it would be impossible for infants to die!

So why are you being totally dishonest with Christ's words? Why are you changing his words? Why can't you answer my questions?

Again, if Jesus or Paul wanted to say, "Goodness comes only from God" they could have easily said it just as I have easily said it but that is not the words they chose to use. So why are you changing Christ's Words?

Furthermore, if a man came running up to you and asked you "Good Moriah, what good thing can I do that I might inherit eternal life?" Why would you respond "WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD"? You would never respond to a person that way asking that question and you know it! So why lie?

Furthermore, if a man came running up to you and asked you "Good Moriah, what good thing can do that I might inherit eternal life?" Why would you respond to that specific question, "Only goodness comes from God." What does that kind of response have to do with his question?? You would NEVER respond that way to such a question either and YOU KNOW IT!

You are a dishonest person because you change the Lord's words to make him say what he never said - you don't love God's Word because those who love God's Word honor the words that are used by God and don't change them and you are changing them to mean something that does not even make sense in response to that precise question.

 

[The Biblicist]

Why are you avoiding my question? Jesus DID NOT say "all goodness is of God"! He said, "THERE IS NONE GOOD but one and that is God." Why are you changing the words of Christ?

Again, If someone came running up to you and said, "Good Moriah, what good thing CAN I DO to inherit eternal life?" Would you use the EXACT WORDS Christ used in response???? Would you respond, "WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD?" Would you respond that way? Furthermore, would YOU respond "THERE IS NONE GOOD, but one and that is God."

You know you would not respond to that particular question with those particular words so why LIE and why keep changing Christ's words to mean something he never said? He never said "goodness comes only from God" because what does that have to do with "Why callesth thou me good?" Your intepretation is absolute nonsense! Yes, all goodness does come from God. That is why we must first be created in Christ Jesus by God "UNTO good works" - Eph. 2:10 - because all our righteouenssess are as filthy rages until we receive from God the ability to do goodness and that is by the creative work of God - Eph. 2:10. That is very true but he never said that! I thought you loved God's Word so why do you CHANGE HIS WORDS?

Now, be honest and answer my question. If a person came running up to you and said, "Good Moriah, what good thing must I do to inherit eternal life?" would you respond with these precise words?

1. "Why callest thou me good"?

2. "There is NONE GOOD but one and that is God"

He did not say "goodness comes from God alone" but he said "THERE IS NONE GOOD" that is a universal rule with only one except to the rule. Why do you keep changing his words and ignoring my direct questions? I will tell you why because you would NEVER respond with those exact words to that exact question and you know it because you don't believe what Jesus said and that is why you change his words to suit your own theology.

Paul said the same thing - "THERE IS NONE GOOD, no, NOT ONE" and he said that not in a context that goodness comes only from God but in a context of those "UNDER SIN" and every human being is born "UNDER SIN" (Rom. 3:9) because they come into this world "condemned already" because they come into this world in unbelief (Jn. 3:17-18) and they come into this world SUBJECT TO DEATH because they come into this world "UNDER SIN" or else it would be impossible for infants to die!

So why are you being totally dishonest with Christ's words? Why are you changing his words? Why can't you answer my questions?

Again, if Jesus or Paul wanted to say, "Goodness comes only from God" they could have easily said it just as I have easily said it but that is not the words they chose to use. So why are you changing Christ's Words?

Furthermore, if a man came running up to you and asked you "Good Moriah, what good thing can I do that I might inherit eternal life?" Why would you respond "WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD"? You would never respond to a person that way asking that question and you know it! So why lie?

Furthermore, if a man came running up to you and asked you "Good Moriah, what good thing can do that I might inherit eternal life?" Why would you respond to that specific question, "Only goodness comes from God." What does that kind of response have to do with his question?? You would NEVER respond that way to such a question either and YOU KNOW IT!

You are a dishonest person because you change the Lord's words to make him say what he never said - you don't love God's Word because those who love God's Word honor the words that are used by God and don't change them and you are changing them to mean something that does not even make sense in response to that precise question.

Readers,

Moriah will not directly answer my questions but will continue to respond the way he is responding because he is practicing his old Roman Catholic habits which are here stated in his own words:

The steps from the Catholics are usually to dodge the question, then deny it, then actually fight against the Word of God.

They dodge the question by trying not to think of it and do not even answer the question; then when pressed, they deny it saying no one can obey it; and then finally, they go against Jesus and say he did not mean it. - Moriah

1. He dodges the question

2. He then denies it thus actually fighting against the words of Christ

3. He does not even answer the question

4. He says that Christ did not even mean "there is none good but one"

 

[BillySunday1935]

DHK or any others that believe like DHK;

There are those here who believe and teach that James speaks of a dead faith for people who are already Christians, and not about a faith someone needs when they want to be saved. However, why would you believe that James is speaking about a dead faith BEFORE one is a Christian when James says, “Can such faith save him?” That scripture is proof that it is about becoming saved and staying saved.

James says faith without deeds is useless, James 2:20. So how did that same useless faith become SAVING faith, as taught by others here? How did that same useless faith be the kind that turns out to be the most important kind of useful faith there can or ever will be? It is simple, it cannot be.

In your beliefs, James calls life saving faith a dead faith. Please explain why James would call SAVING FAITH a dead faith for a Christian.
Please explain better how you even think James is only explaining faith AFTER already being saved and not before, when he uses Abraham before the works of circumcision as an example.

Faith without works of the law is what Paul teaches, not faith without sorrow for sins! Faith without circumcision is what Paul teaches in the Bible, not faith with any kind of right action is worthy of condemnation. That is what many argue and teach here on this board.

Show me one scripture that says what you teach, that to believe and be sorry for sins is not possible and is heresy.

Show me one warning from the Bible that says believe and do not be sorry or confess or you will be condemned.

The Bible says we are to search for God, but you say that is impossible and heresy. If a person is still searching for God, then they are not yet saved! If we are searching for God, we are doing something! It is NOT a sin, as you teach.

You teach that an unsaved person is to believe in Jesus but do not feel sorry for sins or cry or shudder or do anything else, for to do so is a work and you will be condemned.

If you do not obey Jesus, then you are not saved, that is what the Bible says. So, how do you think that no obedience then got you saved? How do you think no obedience got you saved if not obeying means you are not saved?
You say we are not to obey in any way to be saved. Since that is your belief, tell me, why does Jesus say he will make his home with the one he knows, but you claim he makes his home with those who do not yet obey and therefore those he does NOT know?

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works. Pretty simple actually.

Billy

 

[Moriah]

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works. Pretty simple actually.

Billy

So good to read about the truth, thanks Billy.

 

[savedbymercy]

Dead Faith is merely Faith or Believing that is not the product of the New Birth. The devils can never have that type of Faith or believing, because its brought about by New Birth, James had wrote earlier James 1:17-18

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

The seed of the word is implanted or engrafted in every born again person in order that the Gospel can bring forth Faith James 1:21

21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

Ingrafted means:

inborn, implanted by nature, implanted by others instruction

This is speaking of the New Nature of New Birth !

Any Faith apart from this is dead and alienated from the Life of God, no matter how religious !

 

[DHK]

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works. Pretty simple actually.

Billy

First James is defining death. Physical death is separation. When the body is separated from the spirit that is death. The spirit goes on to be with Lord. The body is separated from the spirit. Death is always separation in the Bible.
When James speaks of faith he speaks of a faith that produces works. One can say he has faith but if the faith does not produce works, then is it faith at all? James said "Show me your faith without your works and I will show you my faith by my works." That is the key passage in that chapter.
In Eph.2:1 Paul said, "And you hath he made alive who were once dead in trespasses in sin. They were not lifeless, dead corpses. They were separated from God. They needed to be reconciled to God which is the work of the Holy Spirit. Death is separation. Here is the mistake of the Calvinist--his definition of death. Death means separation. Sin separates. Man is separated from God. God has given the believer the ministry of reconciliation. The unsaved man must be reconciled to God. He is not lifeless; rather he is not reconciled.

As body is separated from the spirit is dead, so if faith produces no works it also is dead. But it still is faith. The spirit will still live on. Faith is still present. It is simply not doing what God wants it to do. The context is Christian living. Christians don't lose their salvation. They don't lose their faith. Their faith doesn't become lifeless in the sense that they don't have any. That is not what James is talking about. There may be times in a person's life where a person's faith does not produce the work it ought to: feeding the poor, and hungry, etc.
"If a brother or sister come to you... and you say unto them depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled...what does it profit."
That is dead faith. When the faith of the Christian doesn't produce the intended result. It has nothing to do with salvation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Here, James is making a simple analogy; faith is made analogous to the body and works are made analogous to the spirit. As the body and spirit are both necessary for life (if we lose our spirit we lose our life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for life. Faith without works is dead, just as the body without the spirit is dead. Thus, just as in physical life one needs the body and the spirit, for eternal life one needs faith AND works. Pretty simple actually.

Billy

Billy did you miss the verse before? He is not talking about "SPIRITUAL" life but he is talking about EVIDENTIAL justification (judicial life) in the daily life of the professor.

Hence, the proper and contextual analogy would be "As the body and the spirit are both necessary for physical life (if we lose our spirit we lose our physical life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for EVIDENTIAL JUSTIFICIATION in the daily life of the professor or as James himself says it so eloquently in the introduction:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Pretty simple actually! Where there is a consistent daily life WITHOUT WORKS there is only a dead professing faith. Evidential justification must include both PROFESSION of faith and WORKS or there really is no evidence for JUDICIAL LIFE at all.

 

[Moriah]

SBM,
Show one scripture that says, “No one can believe in God after learning of Him.”
Show one scripture that says God gives His Spirit to unbelievers.

Dead Faith is merely Faith or Believing that is not the product of the New Birth.

That is not in the scriptures that it is a product of the “New Birth.” Dead faith is faith without any good action. James says can such a faith save. This is about before being saved.

The devils can never have that type of Faith or believing, because its brought about by New Birth, James had wrote earlier James 1:17-18

The demons can never have that type of faith because it is not for them.

17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

Read and consider carefully…”He chose to give us birth through the word…”
He chose to give us birth through THE WORD.
Faith comes from hearing the WORD, we believe, obey, then we receive the Holy Spirit.

The seed of the word is implanted or engrafted in every born again person in order that the Gospel can bring forth Faith James 1:21
21 Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.

Now read the very NEXT SCRIPTURE! Do not merely listen to the word, AND SO DECEIVE YOURSELVES. DO WHAT IT SAYS.
22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.
That one scripture knocks out DHK’s, Biblicists, and all reformers beliefs.
You say a person is made to believe and obey. James proves you wrong when he says do not merely listen. DHK says we do not have to obey after we are saved, but James says you have deceived yourself if you do not obey. Biblicist, DHK, and you all believe that no one could lose their salvation, but James says you can deceive yourself IF YOU DO NOT TO WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY.

 

[Moriah]

Billy did you miss the verse before? He is not talking about "SPIRITUAL" life but he is talking about EVIDENTIAL justification (judicial life) in the daily life of the professor.

Hence, the proper and contextual analogy would be "As the body and the spirit are both necessary for physical life (if we lose our spirit we lose our physical life), for this analogy to hold, faith and works are BOTH necessary for EVIDENTIAL JUSTIFICIATION in the daily life of the professor or as James himself says it so eloquently in the introduction:

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Pretty simple actually! Where there is a consistent daily life WITHOUT WORKS there is only a dead professing faith. Evidential justification must include both PROFESSION of faith and WORKS or there really is no evidence for JUDICIAL LIFE at all.

James says, "Can such a faith save a man?"

The answer is NO.

The scripture is about not being saved unless you have faith and good actions.

 

[Moriah]

As body is separated from the spirit is dead, so if faith produces no works it also is dead. But it still is faith. The spirit will still live on. Faith is still present.

Wow. What twisted ill logic. The BODY is still dead!!!!! The faith is still dead!!!!!!!!

It is simply not doing what God wants it to do.

You say it is “simply not doing what God wants”!!!!!
James says it is a person who has DECEIVED THEMSELVES.

The context is Christian living. Christians don't lose their salvation.

If they have deceived themselves for not doing what the word says, does that sound like they still have their salvation if they deceived themselves?!!!!!!

They don't lose their faith. Their faith doesn't become lifeless in the sense that they don't have any.

No, it is just DEAD!

That is not what James is talking about. There may be times in a person's life where a person's faith does not produce the work it ought to: feeding the poor, and hungry, etc.
"If a brother or sister come to you... and you say unto them depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled...what does it profit."
That is dead faith. When the faith of the Christian doesn't produce the intended result. It has nothing to do with salvation.

James says you are deceived.

 

[DHK]

Believing, confessing, trusting God, and calling on the name of the Lord could save them.

Salvation is by faith alone. Faith (or believing) is not a work. If you say it is you believe the same way as our resident hyper-Calvinist, SBM, who also defines faith as a work. If you put faith in the category of works you teach salvation by works, a heresy.
Sola fide. Salvation is by faith and by faith alone.
There is not one good thing man can do to merit heaven, but believe in God. (and that believing is not a work)
That is why Jesus said:

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

There is only one "work" (which is not a work), and that is too believe on Christ. Jesus was using a play on words. If other "good works": prayer, study the word, walking with Christ, etc. were necessary for salvation, he would have mentioned them. But the other things were works, were not necessary salvation. And faith is not a work.

Jesus says anyone who hates is a murderer.

Then don't hate! Hatred is not a natural spontaneous emotion. It is deliberate.

Could you give me the scriptures for what you say?

It is called fruit.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

You are wrong. Why do you think God looks in the heart if what is in the heart does not matter?

You are putting words in my mouth. That is deceit, and God will see that.
I said feelings don't matter, for feelings cannot save. Where in the Bible does it teach that feelings save? Only Christ can save.

I would not ever tell someone to believe and do nothing else. I want to laugh, but it is just too serious of a matter. Tell us DHK, if a person said he believes in God, and then his friend, pastor, TV evangelist, relative, or whoever told him he is now saved, so he calls himself a Christian and joins a church. Nevertheless, he starts to question if he really is saved. He then reads in the Bible the scripture to examine ourselves, to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. So, he comes to you and asks you what does that mean, what do you tell him?

I would not have to tell the ten year old girl that she doesn't have to be circumcised would I? But you seem to think that is necessary.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I can still tell her that her works don't save her, without telling her anything about circumcision, because that is not what verse 9 is speaking about. But you would be duty bound to tell this poor ten year old girl about circumcision because you think that salvation is "not of works" which means "not of circumcision." Ridiculous!
I would explain Eph.2:8,9 again, more carefully.
I would explain John 3:16; 1John 5:13; John 5:24; Rom.10:9,10 and a host of other Scriptures until she is satisfied that she has an assurance of salvation. But, unlike you, I would not bring up circumcision and the works of the law.

Are you saying only saved people search for God? How does a saved person search for God? Why do they have to search for God, if they are saved?

The unsaved person never seeks for God. He can't. He doesn't know how. He is bound in chains of darkness, a prisoner of Satan. How can a prisoner of Satan search for God?

Why wouldn't you seek for God? As I noted in another post, you don't seem to know what prayer is. Take some lessons from some great men of God in the Bible:

Psalms 63:1 [SIZE=-1]A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah.[/SIZE] O God, thou art my God; early will I seek thee: my soul thirsteth for thee, my flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land, where no water is;

Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
--David sought the Lord; Isaiah sought the Lord.
Perhaps it is time you should take up this practice as well.

Matthew 6:7 “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8“So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

So this is what you think of great men of God when they pray? I feel sorry for you. It is a real shame. I gave you examples:
Praying Hyde who fasted and prayed for as much as 26 days before he preached.
David Brainerd who often fasted and prayed.
Then I gave you the examples of Jesus, Moses, and Elijah, all of whom fasted and prayed for 40 days and 40 nights.

I then encouraged you to do some of the same--maybe for 3 days or so, demonstrating to you that prayer is work. We travail in prayer. It is not easy. It is hard work. It was difficult enough for Jesus that an angel came to sustain him after he spent 40 days and nights in the wilderness.

And you flippantly respond that Jesus, Moses, Elijah and others were just praying meaningless repetitious words as the heathen do!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is blasphemous!

To eat is maybe a work, but not to eat is a work to you too? Who cares? Do what God says to do! Do what God says to do when you want to find Him, and continue to do what God says to do after you have been found. How do you think that it is love for God if you tell people not to do ANYTHING but believe?

Let's take your one statement and examine it in the light of Scripture:

"To eat is maybe a work, but not to eat is a work to you too? Who cares?

Jesus cares. Here is what he said:
Matthew 6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.

When you fast, Jesus said. He compared the work of fasting that the disciples did to the work of fasting that the Pharisees did, and told them not to be like the Pharisees in their work of fasting. Fasting was something they DID, a work. And Jesus cared greatly about.
But you don't care about the commands of Jesus, nor do you care about the words of Jesus.

"Do what God says to do" you say.
God says to fast. Do you fast?

To the unsaved the only thing they can do to be saved is to believe on Christ. All else is but filthy rags.

You say different from what Jesus says.

Acts 55:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

I guess it is heresy compared to your strange doctrines.

Jesus said he was the only way in John 14:6
He said in John 5:24 that it was faith in him that saves.
It seems that your doctrine is not biblical.
BTW, there is no such thing as Acts 55:32

God does not even know you if you do not obey Him.

God has no relationship with the unsaved.
The unsaved can do no good thing; cannot obey God.
In order to have that relationship they must believe on Christ and what Christ did. That is the only way that Christ "will know them," or a relationship can be established. Before that time all "obedience" and good works are fruitless and are counted as filthy rags.

Is that not enough of a reason to obey Him? God says you are a liar if you say you know Him but do not do what He says.

Are you God? Do you know the heart? The saved person usually obeys God out of a thankful heart.

Is that not enough of a reason to obey Him? Sounds like a necessity to me.

Was it a necessity to the thief on the cross?

Jesus says you will remain in His love if you obey Him. Is that not enough reason to obey Him? There is no choice in whether or not you want to obey God.

Then, according to your reason, the thief on the cross, once he was saved was lost again for he had no opportunity to do good works.

 

[DHK]

It would be an insult to Jesus if I went to find an animal to give a burnt offering, or a sin offering, or a fellowship offering.

I t is not an insult to obey Jesus. That is a teaching from demons.

It is a teaching from demons to think that "obeying Jesus" is going to get you to heaven. Only faith in Christ can do that.

And if you do nothing, the Word of God says you are a liar. If you do nothing, then Jesus says you are out of His love. You cannot see that you speak of things that those from the reformed group misunderstood.

There is nothing a person can do. You cannot save yourself. It is Christ that saves. Do you think you can work your way to heaven?

Is believing a work to you? Is fearing God a work to you? Is being humble a work to you? Is confessing a work to you? Is trusting God a work to you? Is being hungry a work to you? Is being thirsty a work to you? Is calling on the name of the Lord to you?

Believing and trusting are the same thing. Being humble may be a work. There are many humble Buddhists. Will their humility get them to heaven?
Thirst is a need. Quenching the thirst is a work. The work will not get you to heaven.
Calling on the name of the Lord is another synonym for faith, for you cannot call on his name except you have faith.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Matthew 5:6.

Is hunger and thirst a work? To hunger and to thirst is a condition of a person’s spirit. If it is as you say, that our spirit has nothing to do with whether or not we have salvation, then what does it matter if we hunger or thirst?

In the context of Mat.5:6 they are works. They are the works of a Christian.

"Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 10:11. Is trust a work?

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:13. Is calling a work?

You say we have to do nothing at all. That is nonsensical, to say the least. We have to do that which God says to do.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. Trusting is the same as having faith. It is a synonym. Why are you playing word games, or don't you understand the English language?

Why is it that you never answered me when I showed you scripture saying we have to believe, confess, trust, and call on the name of the Lord?
Romans
9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord, “and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

Do you belong to the Church of Christ?

11 As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Trust = Believe.

The thief on the cross BELIEVED in Jesus; he FEARED God; he HUMBLED himself; he CONFESSED his sin; and he called on the name of the Lord.
The thief on the cross did what the Bible tells us to do.

The thief believed, was saved, and then died. What good works did he do? None.

 

[The Biblicist]

James says, "Can such a faith save a man?"

The answer is NO.

The scripture is about not being saved unless you have faith and good actions.

That is precisely what I said! The context is EVIDENTIAL JUSTIFICATION by works as verse 18 clearly states. Where there is a profession of faith that is not evidenced by works it is a "dead" faith and therefore a FALSE PROFESSION and false professions do not save.

 

[DHK]

Wow. What twisted ill logic. The BODY is still dead!!!!! The faith is still dead!!!!!!!!

He is talking to Christians, including you. So is this your admission that you are not going to heaven when you die? Your spirit is dead and separated from God for all eternity. Death is separation. Is your spirit separated from God for all eternity? Or will it go and be with the Lord?

James simply used death in the sense of the physical, not the spiritual.
Faith is faith. Every person has faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. James is speaking to Christians. What Christian has not heard the Word of God? As a Christian do you separate your faith from your works, or does your faith produce your works. That is the question? If your faith is separated from your works then your faith is dead. It doesn't mean you have no faith. He is teaching that your faith must produce works, as in feeding the poor and hungry, the very example that he used.

You say it is “simply not doing what God wants”!!!!!
James says it is a person who has DECEIVED THEMSELVES.

James is speaking to Christians not the unsaved.
A Christian's faith results in doing God's will.

If they have deceived themselves for not doing what the word says, does that sound like they still have their salvation if they deceived themselves?!!!!!!

Once born into God's family, always a child of God; one can never be "unborn." But a person can stop from doing good works for a season. Maybe he becomes discouraged, and his faith weak. In that case the Bible says: "You that are strong in the faith help the weak." But the weak in faith will no doubt have little if any good works. But they will have faith.

No, it is just DEAD!

No Christian is dead, but the fruit of your last remark, Moriah, sometimes makes me wonder about you. Was it really necessary. Is that the fruit of the faith that James is talking about? Or is it dead faith producing dead fruit?

James says you are deceived.

DEAD